Fighting against the DARK SIDE

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
My experiences going back to motor rudder combos in early escapement systems ( late 60's) show that the electronics will do just about anything they want when you turn them on. That was why you started the radio system BEFORE anything else or why you null memory on startup.

Thanks for the update @Hai-Lee , been wondering how it was going.
You experiences with older equipment were typical of the time and the technology.
Modern digital radios use microprocessors in the transmitter, receiver and even in the ESCs. Each of these processors has a boot up sequence.
As part of each units boot up sequence there are safety features to ensure that the unstable and unsafe initialisation of the past are gone.

With modern digital radio receivers and ESCs each will not enable the motor circuitry or will not supply a throttle channel output until after the boot up sequence is completed. The only way to complete the boot up is to have the bound transmitter signal present and being received.

We all should know the FCC required Failsafe but most do not know of the FCC required collision avoidance feature of the transmitters. If the transmitter jumps to the next channel in sequence and the channel is busy the transmitter will not transmit over the other signal. The transmitter now is to only way to actually enable the motor drive circuitry, (excluding something like a servo tester of course).

It is quite possible that you have unknowingly already had the model boot up without a valid transmit signal due to spectral congestion and you just did not notice or the model just took a bit longer to initialise.

Computer control is here and getting smarter and even safer.

I just prefer to handle my models when I know the motor cannot activate ever!!

Have fun!
 

Andrew

G'day Mate
You experiences with older equipment were typical of the time and the technology.
Modern digital radios use microprocessors in the transmitter, receiver and even in the ESCs. Each of these processors has a boot up sequence.
As part of each units boot up sequence there are safety features to ensure that the unstable and unsafe initialisation of the past are gone.

With modern digital radio receivers and ESCs each will not enable the motor circuitry or will not supply a throttle channel output until after the boot up sequence is completed. The only way to complete the boot up is to have the bound transmitter signal present and being received.

We all should know the FCC required Failsafe but most do not know of the FCC required collision avoidance feature of the transmitters. If the transmitter jumps to the next channel in sequence and the channel is busy the transmitter will not transmit over the other signal. The transmitter now is to only way to actually enable the motor drive circuitry, (excluding something like a servo tester of course).

It is quite possible that you have unknowingly already had the model boot up without a valid transmit signal due to spectral congestion and you just did not notice or the model just took a bit longer to initialise.

Computer control is here and getting smarter and even safer.

I just prefer to handle my models when I know the motor cannot activate ever!!

Have fun!
Many times I have seen you bring up the term "Smart Safe" that Spektrum uses. While it may be safe for Spektrum user's it NOT always safe for some other brand's of radio's (expensive or cheep) and this includes computer microprocessor controlled transmitters and receiver's sold recently as 5 years ago.
The problem is not all of them have "ModelMatch™", "Smart Match™", "Model-ID™" and others, each brand Trade Marking there own system name.
This is where it can get VERY dangerous, turning on a transmitter with the wrong "model memory" and no protection like Model Match™and others like it.
If the previous model was a glow/gas model with the throttle servo "channel" reversed because of the installation THIS is where it VERY DANGEROUS!!! without the "Model Match" or equivalent protection.

Turing on a receiver first puts it in "Failsafe" and that gives a low throttle signal and this will arm the ESC,

NOW if the transmitter is switched on and previous model is "glow or gas" and reversed channel, as soon as the transmitter is switched on the electric model WILL SUDDENLY GO TO FULL THROTTLE because it's now seeing a reversed channel even though the throttle gamble stick is full down, now you have a electric model going full throttle in your hands or across the pits or across the kitchen table in your little sisters face.

What is safe for you may not be safe for others to do.

You seem to have a lot of problems with your club over the year's, you should speak to your National Association for advice , there phone number is on there website, you pay your membership fee's to them each year so thay should be help you, they have committee members up in Brisbane and go to Australia's largest RC club also in Brisbane near you, you should talk to them face to face, also in a another thread you mentioned the problems with AGMs and your club is "Incorporated", and the lack of communication about the AGMs, that is illegal because your club is
Incorporated, part of your yearly club fee go's to "Office of Fair Trading" so you should use them, a quick phone call to them and they will sort out the AGM trouble quickly and no legal cost to you.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
Many times I have seen you bring up the term "Smart Safe" that Spektrum uses. While it may be safe for Spektrum user's it NOT always safe for some other brand's of radio's (expensive or cheep) and this includes computer microprocessor controlled transmitters and receiver's sold recently as 5 years ago.
The problem is not all of them have "ModelMatch™", "Smart Match™", "Model-ID™" and others, each brand Trade Marking there own system name.
This is where it can get VERY dangerous, turning on a transmitter with the wrong "model memory" and no protection like Model Match™and others like it.
If the previous model was a glow/gas model with the throttle servo "channel" reversed because of the installation THIS is where it VERY DANGEROUS!!! without the "Model Match" or equivalent protection.

Turing on a receiver first puts it in "Failsafe" and that gives a low throttle signal and this will arm the ESC,

NOW if the transmitter is switched on and previous model is "glow or gas" and reversed channel, as soon as the transmitter is switched on the electric model WILL SUDDENLY GO TO FULL THROTTLE because it's now seeing a reversed channel even though the throttle gamble stick is full down, now you have a electric model going full throttle in your hands or across the pits or across the kitchen table in your little sisters face.

What is safe for you may not be safe for others to do.

You seem to have a lot of problems with your club over the year's, you should speak to your National Association for advice , there phone number is on there website, you pay your membership fee's to them each year so thay should be help you, they have committee members up in Brisbane and go to Australia's largest RC club also in Brisbane near you, you should talk to them face to face, also in a another thread you mentioned the problems with AGMs and your club is "Incorporated", and the lack of communication about the AGMs, that is illegal because your club is
Incorporated, part of your yearly club fee go's to "Office of Fair Trading" so you should use them, a quick phone call to them and they will sort out the AGM trouble quickly and no legal cost to you.

You are correct in that some persons may not or should not use it. That does not mean it should be banned for all users especially as a matter of personal choice and personal safety. Mind you like all things if you do not setup your transmitter properly you get what you deserve.

Sadly the national association will not discuss matters with persons who are not members and as there are NO other flying fields that I can reach or other clubs I can join it becomes a matter of join and not be able to fly anyway, (a waste of time and money), or get to be able to fly first and then join the national association, (joining the national association gives you flight insurance cover which I do not need until I can fly again).

Been to OFT, Government mediation, (the club did not do anything that they agreed to do), The club offered to have it tested externally for safety, (but could have done so over three years ago but instead refused and resorted to bullying and intimidation). I used the smartsafe operation for three years within the club and the only time I ever suffered an inadvertent motor start was when the transmitter was on.
WHEN I became an appointed flight instructor for the club, the club radio expert, (NOT), was offended and the club rules were changed to prohibit its operation. Anyway it is soon to be put before the supreme court and I have a second round of documents to file tomorrow including a number of exhibits to prove my claims and a few other matters. (I never delete an email)!

Maybe the court can rule if Smartsafe for personal use and safety is acceptable. CASA had amended AC101 once before to deal with this matter and from my communications with them and my submissions it appears that a BIG amendment is to be started next month!

So far I have setup many different radio transmitters and receivers and so far I personally have not found a single setup where a Smartsafe operation was dangerous or unsafe! Just recently there was an incident at the club where a quad decided to return to home whilst the operator was carrying it! The return to home feature was selected via failsafe. What the club does not understand is that the FCC requirements of the digital radio control transmitters is for them to have collision avoidance. Collision Avoidance means that the transmitter will not transmit at the same time as another transmitter, (to reduce possible interference), BUT if there are few or no clear channels for the transmitter to use it will just not transmit. I suspect that the poor operator was carrying the quad, with the transmitter on and the ESCs armed when the transmitter could not transmit due to spectral congestion. The result was that the motors started spinning and the quad tried to fly back to its point of origin. It was very messy but he had followed the club safety rules to the letter.

Simply Smartsafe is just having the receiver throttle output be forced to minimum upon loss of radio signal! The operation described in information attributable to smartsafe are the safety features of the receiver boot up protections and the esc boot up protections. Mind you until a gas motor is started the throttle setting is does not matter and if you start a gas motor on a model without the model being powered up it might be seen as somewhat foolish.

I have used the safety features of the boot up sequence and the receiver boot up sequence on radios that were digital entry level and did not have failsafe or even a kill switch but the model still remained inert without any unexpected motor operation and would keep the throttle at the "Last received" setting for 15 seconds after the tx signal was lost and then force the motor to be disabled.

From my investigation the actual fear originates from a lack of understanding of the technologies involved and in some cases a confusion over the setting of Spektrum failsafes especially where using non-genuine receivers. Not all receivers support all versions of failsafe and if not set properly it can be a lottery as to what the throttle will do in the event of a loss of signal.

I am not that worried as I have a fall back plan of starting another local club and I believe I can raise the number required to incorporate from day one BUT I have friends in the club and to back down and accept the "UNSAFE" declaration made by the "Muppets", (what the document server calls them), even though it is wrong and defamatory is not in anyone's interest except possibly the interests of the muppets!

Enough prattle! If you want a list of what to look for in the safety features of ESCs, Receivers, and how ot use them for your own safety just pick another or new thread and I will provide the information I have learned in the past three years!

Have fun!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
Well the case is before the Supreme court and suddenly the other party has declared that they actually do not know enough about the technology to be able to determine what is safe! A total collapse on their original stance as they are confronted with overwhelming evidence that their decision was wrong.
A new angle introduced! They claim uncertainty as to validity of insurance coverage allowing such an operation. UNCERTAINTY after a full year to ask the insurance broker for clarification!
Under their original reasoning they were totally wrong and given the new reasoning they have under taken a campaign of deliberate misinformation.
Monday will be interesting as their last opportunity to repair matters!

Having fun!
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Hopefully your original filing allows for the change of defense and does not scuttle your lawsuit. The broker "should" know what the policy excludes or covers, but I believe that isn't relevant and non admission of guilt.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
My question is what would an insurance broker really understand about RC?
Nothing that he cannot get from the intro level user guide called manual that the equipment comes with. OH! and of course the "Expert" advice supplied by those who now admit that they do not know enough to be able to be able to determine what is safe and what is not safe!
 

Piotrsko

Master member
What time local will the hearing occur. Going to be kind of like the 7 minutes of mars landing. Should be over by the time I wake up monday.

Godspeed @Hai-Lee
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
What time local will the hearing occur. Going to be kind of like the 7 minutes of mars landing. Should be over by the time I wake up monday.

Godspeed @Hai-Lee
The hearing is over and the result is that I have a month to file an amended claim. The other parties have been advised to provide a better affidavit that actually contains some factual details.
I have been encouraged to seek a mediated agreement and to be less aggressive by the judge. Sadly I see the issue as black and white and either I was wronged or I was not, and they were wrong or they were not! I do not know how to get the old dictator types who do not know anything but believe they are always correct and refuse to accept anything new or to even listen to reason!

I have been in touch with the relevant manufacturer engineering team to get a bulletin to allow the prohibited safe usage, simply because the OEM manual was written, (as claimed by the manufacturer), to save trees!

More as it develops!
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Preliminary observation: positive response.
Definition of mediated agreement: everyone looses except the mediator who collects a nice fee.

Do you return to the same court/judge on your refile? This sounds a lot like Small claims court in the USA.