1:4 Scale Foamy Albatros D.Va – Flite Fest 2022 Dawn Patrol Challenge

[Off-topic jes]

Some of y’all take this hobby to the next level😏

Yup!

 

[Off-topic jes]

Ok, words cannot express how impressive this is. I am about to do a 1/5 Gee Bee sportster using the same technique for the wings. Hope I have the same success.

Same for my 1/4

 

[wilmracer]

I’ll join and try a Folker dr1 or se5!

Take a look at that thread and let me know when you settle on a model (and when you start a build thread). I'll add you to the list now and clean it up when you settle on your decision.

On the topic of the D.Va... Life has continued to be a blocker for the last few weeks but I do fully expect to be moving much faster in the coming days/week. I'm getting close to having the house back to a new normal and have been busy with house projects but I'm knocking those out quickly. I think by the end of next week there won't be much critical work left to do there and I'll be able to focus some free time on fun I did have one last part come in that should be a nice addition but I'll cover that before too long

 

[cyclone3350]

Looking forward to seeing more of this project when U get the time.

 

[wilmracer]

Video update!

 

[cyclone3350]

Video update!

I've gotta ask U. Other than Econokote, due to it's low heat application, I haven't had very good results with iron on covering directly over foam. By the time I started using Oratex, I gave up on the idea of using iron on covering directly to foam, so it didn't cross my mind to try it. Was it pretty much straight forward for the Oratex to go on, or did U have some secret trick that U used? TBH, that was the main reason I added balsa to the foam wing on my Gee Bee. Looking good & liked the video.

 

[willsonman]

I've gotta ask U. Other than Econokote, due to it's low heat application, I haven't had very good results with iron on covering directly over foam. By the time I started using Oratex, I gave up on the idea of using iron on covering directly to foam, so it didn't cross my mind to try it. Was it pretty much straight forward for the Oratex to go on, or did U have some secret trick that U used? TBO, that was the main reason I added balsa to the foam wing on my Gee Bee. Looking good & liked the video.

Carl's technique is pretty great. He uses super 77 spray glue and does a light coat on the foam AND the covering, applies the covering and then applies heat. I also played around with this and found no issues applying the iron on coverings to foam directly with no added glues simply by turning up the heat a little more. You'll be surprised how much heat the foam can take. You generally want to work from the inside out to remove air pockets under the film but after a few practice runs you can figure out your technique. See the following video at the time stamp for my technique:

 

[cyclone3350]

Carl's technique is pretty great. He uses super 77 spray glue and does a light coat on the foam AND the covering, applies the covering and then applies heat. I also played around with this and found no issues applying the iron on coverings to foam directly with no added glues simply by turning up the heat a little more. You'll be surprised how much heat the foam can take. You generally want to work from the inside out to remove air pockets under the film but after a few practice runs you can figure out your technique. See the following video at the time stamp for my technique:

3M 77 is sooo underrated. I literally use a can a month. Never thought about using it on something that already had adhesive to it, as I was unsure if it would counteract with the glue backing. I might try that. I can see where it would do well with putting the covering on exactly where U want it. IDK if U saw my pic of the biplane Scout in the FT Scout Xl thread. That was tissue & 3m 77.

 

[CrashRecovery]

Looking good Carl!!!

 

[wilmracer]

3M 77 is sooo underrated. I literally use a can a month. Never thought about using it on something that already had adhesive to it, as I was unsure if it would counteract with the glue backing. I might try that. I can see where it would do well with putting the covering on exactly where U want it. IDK if U saw my pic of the biplane Scout in the FT Scout Xl thread. That was tissue & 3m 77.

@willsonman nailed my method. A few things to keep in mind and one thing that I might not have mentioned to him about the Oratex...

• I actually found with Oratex that the 3M 77 WASN'T required and it actually laid down smoother without it. I think some of it may be the difference between a real fabric like oratex and a traditional film like coverite or monokote. In any case I didn't have any issues with the heat required to lay it down impacting the foam.
  
  
• If/when you do lay down 3m77 on to the foam be VERY careful to keep the can far from the foam. I prefer to do this outside now as I was getting SO much overspray everywhere when holding the can ~24" or more from the parts. Also when you spray the covering film give it at least 5 minutes to outgas the propellant. 10 minutes would be even better. Don't get impatient. Any propellant still on the film WILL eat the foam, and because it is sealed in against the surface the divots created can be ugly. In some cases I even use 3M90, and for that the rules change a bit. I don't like to shoot 3M90 onto the foam. It doesn't seem to be possible to hold the can far enough away to give the propellant time to outgas before it hits the foam. I would still hit the foam w/ 3M77 and then shoot 3M90 onto the covering film, but give it 10-15 minutes to outgas, maybe even more. The longer the better. When you apply with 3M90 you WILL get an orange-peel texture because the adhesive is so thick and stringy, but your iron will smooth it out nicely and will reactivate the adhesive. Again, PATIENCE before applying.
  
  
• You DO have to manage your expectations, and here is what I mean... This is a foamy model. For the best possible long term surface IMO you need to sheet the foam with balsa, glass, then do the prime/sand/fill/sand dance, and then paint or lay down metal film. I'm going to that effort with the B-17, but NOT with this model. The covering will get wrinkles and, for the most part, I'll be able to pull those out and clean it up with the iron or heat gun (iron is better and less risky). If you expect the covering to be a perfect show-room finish you're not going to be happy with the final product. With the @Mid7night Stearman I laid the covering film down on the foam before shaping and assembling and that achieved the smoothest finish I've had on a film covered foamy, but even that model gets wrinkles from time to time. In the end I don't really care unless they get REALLY bad.
  
  For a model like this I'm going to remind myself that these things were field maintained, sitting outside in horrible conditions, and were beat like red-headed-step-children by the pilots. As @willsonman pointed out while hand brush painting his D.VIII the imperfections add life and character to these oldtimers. Or as we say in IT, its a feature, not a bug
  
  I have many models covered this way and they hold up amazingly well. The stearman has too many flights to count, survived a maiden flight midair collision, has sat in an outdoor trailer for months at a time in the heat and cold, sat in the sun for days at a time at multiple events, and STILL looks great.

 

[cyclone3350]

@willsonman nailed my method. A few things to keep in mind and one thing that I might not have mentioned to him about the Oratex...

• I actually found with Oratex that the 3M 77 WASN'T required and it actually laid down smoother without it. I think some of it may be the difference between a real fabric like oratex and a traditional film like coverite or monokote. In any case I didn't have any issues with the heat required to lay it down impacting the foam.
  
  
• If/when you do lay down 3m77 on to the foam be VERY careful to keep the can far from the foam. I prefer to do this outside now as I was getting SO much overspray everywhere when holding the can ~24" or more from the parts. Also when you spray the covering film give it at least 5 minutes to outgas the propellant. 10 minutes would be even better. Don't get impatient. Any propellant still on the film WILL eat the foam, and because it is sealed in against the surface the divots created can be ugly. In some cases I even use 3M90, and for that the rules change a bit. I don't like to shoot 3M90 onto the foam. It doesn't seem to be possible to hold the can far enough away to give the propellant time to outgas before it hits the foam. I would still hit the foam w/ 3M77 and then shoot 3M90 onto the covering film, but give it 10-15 minutes to outgas, maybe even more. The longer the better. When you apply with 3M90 you WILL get an orange-peel texture because the adhesive is so thick and stringy, but your iron will smooth it out nicely and will reactivate the adhesive. Again, PATIENCE before applying.
  
  
• You DO have to manage your expectations, and here is what I mean... This is a foamy model. For the best possible long term surface IMO you need to sheet the foam with balsa, glass, then do the prime/sand/fill/sand dance, and then paint or lay down metal film. I'm going to that effort with the B-17, but NOT with this model. The covering will get wrinkles and, for the most part, I'll be able to pull those out and clean it up with the iron or heat gun (iron is better and less risky). If you expect the covering to be a perfect show-room finish you're not going to be happy with the final product. With the @Mid7night Stearman I laid the covering film down on the foam before shaping and assembling and that achieved the smoothest finish I've had on a film covered foamy, but even that model gets wrinkles from time to time. In the end I don't really care unless they get REALLY bad.
  
  For a model like this I'm going to remind myself that these things were field maintained, sitting outside in horrible conditions, and were beat like red-headed-step-children by the pilots. As @willsonman pointed out while hand brush painting his D.VIII the imperfections add life and character to these oldtimers. Or as we say in IT, its a feature, not a bug
  
  I have many models covered this way and they hold up amazingly well. The stearman has too many flights to count, survived a maiden flight midair collision, has sat in an outdoor trailer for months at a time in the heat and cold, sat in the sun for days at a time at multiple events, and STILL looks great.

Thanks for the tips. So far, I am impressed with the Oratex. ( except for the weight ) Did a 110" VH Rascal knock off with the cream being Coverite and the blue with Oratex. I have to retighten the Coverite after it sits a few months in a climate controlled storage unit, let alone taking it to the field in the sun. So far the blue on the Rascal & the red & white on my 1/4 Clipped Wing, https://forum.flitetest.com/index.p...cub-and-time-to-change-my-avatar.68115/page-6 , R pretty much maintenance free. I will be using it on the Gee Bee & other future large scale projects. U mentioned metal film, R U planning on using Flite Metal for Sweet Pea?

 

[wilmracer]

U mentioned metal film, R U planning on using Flite Metal for Sweet Pea?

Maybe... that is TBD.

 

[Off-topic jes]

I've gotta ask U. Other than Econokote, due to it's low heat application, I haven't had very good results with iron on covering directly over foam. By the time I started using Oratex, I gave up on the idea of using iron on covering directly to foam, so it didn't cross my mind to try it. Was it pretty much straight forward for the Oratex to go on, or did U have some secret trick that U used? TBH, that was the main reason I added balsa to the foam wing on my Gee Bee. Looking good & liked the video.

Yeah normal iron covering doesn’t stick well to foam and causes wrinkles because the low heat

 

[willsonman]

Maybe... that is TBD.

I know a guy insane enough to try that technique.

 

[willsonman]

Yeah normal iron covering doesn’t stick well to foam and causes wrinkles because the low heat

Again, I did not seem to have any issues. I even used non-name brand garbage stuff with good success.

 

[wilmracer]

Not as much of an update as I was hoping to have this weekend, but at least I did get something done. The panels are cut for the lower wing. I'm going to take a look at the one with the slight gouge in it and I may re-cut if I think that will be the fastest fix

This week I'd like to get to the point where this wing is mounted up (at least the center section) so I can continue with the fuselage covering and add the battery hatch. That may be ambitious but we'll see.

 

[wilmracer]

In an effort to keep myself on track and on schedule with this build I'm going to FORCE myself to post daily updates. I hope there will be very few "NSTR" (Nothing Significant To Report).

I'll try to include pictures on each post. In this case I didn't grab any last night, but here is what was done:

• Wingtips attached to lower wing panels
• Spar location identified and validated sufficient airfoil thickness to support the spar after dihedral added
• Worked out rig for cutting in dihedral angles into outer panels
• Installed CF stringers into underside of outboard panels (2). These are thin and have almost no weight penalty but will help stiffen the wing significantly AND will hold wing flat and true while dihedral is cut and spar/mating plates are installed. A second pair will be installed on the upper surface after cutting dihedral and sanding/cleanup of upper surface.
• Printed the anti-rotation pins with magnets.
  • Assuming I can make time I want to shoot a 2-3 minute clip of the assembly process and installation and then I'll get them on thingiverse. I have two templates that aid in cutting the recess to fit the assembly but still recommend gorilla glue to fill any gaps and really lock them in.
• Ordered a few fresh batteries
  • I had intended to run (and may still run) a pair of 6s 8000 mAh Graphene packs on this model in parallel for 6s 16000. Hobbyking only had 1 of the 8000s in stock so I picked it up, and I also picked up a 6s 20,0000 mAh 12C pack. The weight is almost identical to 2 of the 6s 8000s and the size may actually be more convenient. I will almost certainly need the nose weight and it may as well be useable "gas" in the tank . 12C isn't high, but @ 20,000 mAh it can still easily support over 200 Amps, and I don't expect to exceed 90. If I do end up using that pack I should get some REALLY nice flight times

So that was the update from last night. More to follow tomorrow and I'll do my absolute best to include pictures next time.

 

[cyclone3350]

In an effort to keep myself on track and on schedule with this build I'm going to FORCE myself to post daily updates. I hope there will be very few "NSTR" (Nothing Significant To Report).

I'll try to include pictures on each post. In this case I didn't grab any last night, but here is what was done:

• Wingtips attached to lower wing panels
• Spar location identified and validated sufficient airfoil thickness to support the spar after dihedral added
• Worked out rig for cutting in dihedral angles into outer panels
• Installed CF stringers into underside of outboard panels (2). These are thin and have almost no weight penalty but will help stiffen the wing significantly AND will hold wing flat and true while dihedral is cut and spar/mating plates are installed. A second pair will be installed on the upper surface after cutting dihedral and sanding/cleanup of upper surface.
• Printed the anti-rotation pins with magnets.
  • Assuming I can make time I want to shoot a 2-3 minute clip of the assembly process and installation and then I'll get them on thingiverse. I have two templates that aid in cutting the recess to fit the assembly but still recommend gorilla glue to fill any gaps and really lock them in.
• Ordered a few fresh batteries
  • I had intended to run (and may still run) a pair of 6s 8000 mAh Graphene packs on this model in parallel for 6s 16000. Hobbyking only had 1 of the 8000s in stock so I picked it up, and I also picked up a 6s 20,0000 mAh 12C pack. The weight is almost identical to 2 of the 6s 8000s and the size may actually be more convenient. I will almost certainly need the nose weight and it may as well be useable "gas" in the tank . 12C isn't high, but @ 20,000 mAh it can still easily support over 200 Amps, and I don't expect to exceed 90. If I do end up using that pack I should get some REALLY nice flight times

So that was the update from last night. More to follow tomorrow and I'll do my absolute best to include pictures next time.

I was hoping to see this shift into a higher gear. I'm finding myself getting bogged down & was looking for something to motivate me. For some reason, my builds move faster when I have ideas that I can steal form others

 

[wilmracer]

I was hoping to see this shift into a higher gear. I'm finding myself getting bogged down & was looking for something to motivate me. For some reason, my builds move faster when I have ideas that I can steal form others

I want to put the pedal down and just get it done. We may have 114 days until FF but I've got less than 60 until SEFF. Depending on space constraints I'd love to take this one down there but we'll see. There is no place better for a maiden flight than at Mac Hodges field. If you haven't been before imagine a full scale runway manicured like a putting green. If nothing else setting a goal of ~50 days to finish will get me CLOSE to done even if I miss the mark a bit. That way she will definitely be done and flown BEFORE FF. It may even give me a chance to do something in 1:6th for the event as well. I'm feeling left out with all the Scout XL fun

 

[Off-topic jes]

I want to put the pedal down and just get it done. We may have 114 days until FF but I've got less than 60 until SEFF. Depending on space constraints I'd love to take this one down there but we'll see. There is no place better for a maiden flight than at Mac Hodges field. If you haven't been before imagine a full scale runway manicured like a putting green. If nothing else setting a goal of ~50 days to finish will get me CLOSE to done even if I miss the mark a bit. That way she will definitely be done and flown BEFORE FF. It may even give me a chance to do something in 1:6th for the event as well. I'm feeling left out with all the Scout XL fun

Oh my goodness not to be a crazy person but I’ve been watching you on YouTube for about two years and didn’t realize that I’ve been chatting with you it’s an honor to meet you sir you do good work