A Rant over MotionRC

[Konrad]

...
When Motion came around, they worked with the big manufacturers (Freewing and FMS and now several more), to rengineer their models. We started getting robust retracts, shock struts, reliability, solid construction, better scale appearance, and good stock power. And, if anything on the aircraft failed or didn't meet expectations due to a manufacturer defect, they replaced at no charge. This was unheard of, and has set a new precedent for many of the other foam retailers. This is why they have great reviews from most flyers, why I purchase their products. While incorrect throws is an issue, it pales in comparison to ESCs bursting into flame, wings snapping off, exploding edf fans, and retracts that breaking on even silky smooth landings...

Forgive me for not taking MotionRC at their word on this "worked with the manufactures" well other than putting the MotionRC label on the boxes.

Here's an excerpt from another discusion with MotionRC. You might note the lies but also see where because other firms have been selling the Mirage 2000C-5 MotionRC has no intention of correcting the set up information.


Konrad Dudek posted 09/16/2016 7:45 PM
Greeting Wayne,

Your own sales force has stated that the maidens are "hair raising". Your own customer reviews show way too active an aileron response. Your own customer forum "hobby squawk" shows that almost all flyers that have had successful maiden flight have
Started out with half the recommend throw for the aileron. While I have had my Mirage 2000 for about two years during this time the Mirage 2000 had developed a nasty reputation on the web. This is not fair to the model. It really is a sweet flier.

Not sure what more the management of MotionRC needs to be aware that there is a problem with the technical data in the manual. While I understand that you might not concur with my solution (data given earlier). The need for corrections in the manual are clearly stated in your own customer complaints. The management of MotionRC just needs to read the customer feedback in detail.

If what you are saying is that once the roll rate is addressed the Mirage 2000 makes a nice sport model I agree. But getting past the initial maiden shouldn't cause your customers to have a coronary. Or worse have to purchase a second replacement model.

All the best,
Konrad
Sent from my iPhone

Wayne Mallaber posted 09/16/2016 3:47 PM
Konrad,
The Freewing Mirage has been sold in it's current state by many retailers for a few years now and Freewing has not had any data to suggest the recommended setup is inaccurate for an initial starting point. The throws and CG are all recommended starting points and can be adjusted to suit ones personal style after a few test flights as such it is just a recommended starting point. After selling literally hundreds of this plane we also have no data to suggest otherwise as each persons feel and experience will vary initially. We will forward the details of your findings to Freewing for their examination however at this point we will not be posting any changes until we hear from them. Once again data and customer feedback at this time show the initial settings to be adequate for a successful initial flight. Thanks for looking to MotionRC.
Best Regards,
Wayne

Closed by Wayne Mallaber 09/16/2016 3:47 PM

Now I'm not holding or excusing MotionRC to what is out there. I'm holding them accountable to the standards we as customer have for upstanding firms and to what they claim they stand for. In that regard I think it is clear that they have fallen far short of anybody's expectations. They have fallen so far as to warrant the statement "DO NOT PATRONIZE MOTIONRC".

I'm I in error to hold firms accountable? I think not!

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

I'm having a bit of a problem following the logic of the first respondent to this topic.

He seems to state that because other management groups have chosen to ban me. That what I've observed and proposed as solution to those observations isn't valid.

Why does this thought process prevail here at FT or the web as a whole? It is usually practiced by apologist who aren't really willing or able to address the real issue of the discussion.

Kind looks to me to be a straw-man approach. Why not address your concerns with my findings, that MotionRC does not deserver our patronage.

Another valued members of FT has addressed what they see as being unfair looking at the market as a whole, or my failure to look at the customer induced side of the issue.

If he wants to discuss my banning record I might be willing to discuss that, but in another thread.
(like management has a crystal ball being able to look into the souls of men to vet the truth)

The truth is that most "management" are cowards and want to take the easy way out. No, not suicide but rather get rid of the instigators of change.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Poor guy. Another well designed Freewing/MotionRC product! And for those that can't understand sarcasm it is NOT a well designed product, using an outrunner in EDF jets, it's just cheap
https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/r...utrunner-motor-burnout-and-failure-mid-flight

If anybody has access to the Hobby Squawk forum you might help the guy by linking him to this thread.
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21998.0

After all we here to help each other overcome corporate greed!

I actually think that the latest design finally went with the stand off adapter. But that took far too many years for Freewing and MotionRC to adapt.

Looks to me to be along the same lines as ESC bursting in to flames, mentioned of other brands.

True, we don't know much of the details but on the face of it, it doesn't look good!

I'd like to know what are the ESC programed parameters. Does Freewing/MotionRC have a defined setting for the default setting as shipped? But what do I know, I'm just a quality focused engineer thinking that finding the root cause is more important that replacing junk with junk.

P.S.
Telling!! From the linked thread:
"I notified motion RC who initially said they can't do anything but after insisting that this was a faulty motor, they are requesting that I send in the EDF for inspection."

Sorry we can't help you with the junk we sold you, but you can keep both halfs! What you are pissed, Ok sent it back and we take a look. Giving the guy to my and other links addressing how EDFs work might give him some ammunition to fight MotionRc to a successful conclusion, other than keeping the wreck.

As it looks like all the motor phases are burned, this would be an indication of over heating (poor design) or that the wire used low heat epoxy as the insulator (manufacturing or engineering spec issue).

 

[Konrad]

Now a bit to Hai-Lee’s point, the pilot in this thread is culpable for a lot, if not all of the damage to the airframe.
https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/r...utrunner-motor-burnout-and-failure-mid-flight

He did not abort the flight at the first or even second indication of problems with the power system. Even after total loss of power he did not immediately turn to base and set up for a dead stick landing. With the little we see in the video, the hull loss or damage is on him.

But I think we can agree that the loss of power is most likely as a result of product failure of the systems (EDF unit, ESC or motor) supplied by Freewing/MotionRC.

Just trying to address some of the charges leveled at me, for not being balanced in my assessment of the unethical practices of MotionRC.

MotionRC do right by the customer and eat this one!
Also start a root cause analysis on this and narrow down the problem to help lower your ultra high product failure rates
Might I suggest you implement some known statistical quality programs like Six Sigma.
http://www.ge.com/sixsigma/sixsigstrategy.html

Just trying to instigate positive change in the MotionRC corporate culture.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Jam tomorrow and jam yesterday, but never jam today. -The Queen in Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking Glass

This is telling!
https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/r...nout-and-failure-mid-flight?p=80947#post80947


No stock to support the customer’s need. Must the rash of failures be depleting the inventory.

This might not be accurate. MotionRC just might not have put any EDF units on their inventory. But from a sales point of view this wouldn’t make good sense.
Without actually seeing the failure rate data, it is probably safe to assume that the lack of inventory is as a result of an unusually high failure rates.

 

[F106DeltaDart]

They replaced the unit, seems like good service to me! As for why they are out of stock, could be because many people have been using them in other airplanes, not necessarily replacement due to failure. I bought 2 of those units to replace the terrible stock 5 blade fans/motors in my LX YF-23. Plenty of others on RCgroups and Hobbysquawk have been using them to replace the stock system in the LX A-4 Skyhawk, and quite a few have switched their older 5-blade Freewing units out for the new 12 blades.

 

[Konrad]

They replaced the unit, seems like good service to me! As for why they are out of stock, could be because many people have been using them in other airplanes, not necessarily replacement due to failure. I bought 2 of those units to replace the terrible stock 5 blade fans/motors in my LX YF-23. Plenty of others on RCgroups and Hobbysquawk have been using them to replace the stock system in the LX A-4 Skyhawk, and quite a few have switched their older 5-blade Freewing units out for the new 12 blades.

Again what you and I consider good customer service differ greatly.

Now that is one interpretation of the facts, and it is a viable interpretation. Unfortunately it isn’t very probable, knowing what we know about the firm MotionRC and the failure of the motor as shown by the customer.

The photo of the failed motor shows all three legs (electrical phases) failed and by about the same amount. This is a strong indication that the motor failed as a function of overheating. Most Manufacturing induced failure are as a result of the winding having been nicked durring the winding process causing an internal sort in the coil or a ground path to the stator. This kind of failure would look like one set of windings being burned, not all three with close to the same heat damage.

Again not having inspected the motor or having access to the OEM’s supply chain data. I suspect the true root cause for the failure was that the OEM bought a spool of winding wire that was not to spec. That is the insulation was of a much inferior heat tolerance. With the added stress of an EDF outrunner system the insulation broke down and shorted out the coils. This would account for the way the coils look and the short supply of replacement motors. As I’m sure there would be a large quantity of failed motors from the production run that used that spool of under spec’ed wire.

Add what we know about MotionRC not publishing less than flattering reviews* (not tell us the customer the truth) and their penchant for not doing what they say they will do, we are forced to realize that we have lost all confidence in MotionRC.

Recall the initial response to the customers concerns! It was his doggedness that he got a somewhat positive response from MotionRC.

Still not what I’d be looking for in a customer focused organization. Having to insist that they do the right thing!

I’d still like to know what the root cause of the failure was. There is still the very real possibility that the ESC was a contributor to the failure. He (or MotionRC) should put it on a scope to check what the output wave form looks like.

I'm sure MotionRC knows the real cause of the failure and is confident that the replacement of the EDF motor will correct the customer's issue. It is a bad batch of motors combined with improper engineering of the EDF unit.

* Yes, they let a few less than flattering review/comments be published but as is my experience the vast majority are suppressed.

 

[MicroMan75]

They will never admit fault. If the airplane has a problem, they will always make it the customer's fault and place the burden of proof on them. I also read a comment that said, "They are just a retailer like Amazon." That makes no sense to me. If you put your name on something, you are now responsible for backing up the claims you make. If you come to them with an issue, the information they want from you would be enough to convict a murderer at trial. They want videos of you trying to launch it, videos of it flying, videos of it taxiing, etc.) I'm a pretty good pilot, but I'm not good enough to fly an EDF and film it with my phone.

I recently purchased their 64mm F8 Crusader with optional landing gear. This jet was the biggest piece of wasted foam I've ever flown (tried to fly). The EDF was weak. Freewing 64mm EDFs are notoriously underpowered. It was also a 5-blade, which I don't care for. They're loud, too. OK, it was only $140. However, there are loads of jets in that range that are awesome and I would have bought one of those had I known what a piece of crap the F8 is.

I watched their sales videos for this plane, and that thing was screaming around the park. There is no way that the one they sold me had the same power plant, yet they claim it did. The jet was difficult to control. It had a tremendous lack of elevator authority, even when mechanically set for max throw. I had to put 4S in it for the plane to take off, and then it would not gain altitude. Ended up crashing max throttle into a large tree stump.

The funniest part about all of this is I've heard that the F8 and the F105 have to be hand-launched. That would have been nice to know BEFORE I spent another $15 on the "optional" landing gear set!!!

Bottom line is Motion RC will never see another penny from me. I'm not alone in this. A bunch of pilots at my club won't go near them either.

I'm guessing that in a couple of years they'll get scooped up by Horizon Hobby, and then they'll finally have some decent customer service.

 

[Thomas B]

Still a very happy Motion RC customer here. Every model I have gotten from them has worked correctly from the start. I did have a missing part in a kit on a recent ARF order. The part is now on its way to me.

No vendor is perfect, but I find MRC to be among the best in our industry.

I own both of the models being complained about in this thread and I did not have the issues mentioned with the F-8 64mm model. I set my own aileron rates and throws based on experience for my Mirage 2000, so the suggested rates never affected me.