Building an F-16XL

[Matthew Sanders]

If I ever built one, I would have to eschew the Lockheed Martin labels. The F-16, including the XL variant, were General Dynamics Convair designs.

Granted, that was before Bill Anders gutted the company and sold off just about every division he could find a buyer for...

Bill Anders, you mean the Apollo 8 astronaut? Also, I did contact General Dynamics regarding this design, and the reply I got simply stated that they had sold that portion of the company and to go contact LM. So, they’ve really distanced themselves from the Viper and it’s variants. And, if you’re referring to the 3 view, I literally just took the image off the internet to show what I was doing, I didn’t actually make it. And, yeah, it’s not accurate.

 

[Hoomi]

Yep. That Bill Anders. He took over as CEO of General Dynamics in the late 80s or early 90s, and wasn't very popular with the Hourly workforce. I'm not sure he was much more popular with the Salaried workforce. Before his ascending to the position, General Dynamics was one of the largest, if not the largest, Government Contractor in the United States. Now, it's barely a shadow of what it once was.

I wasn't being critical of your design, or the image; just that I rather miss the old General Dynamics, when it was a company worth working for. Nothing against Lockheed Martin, either. I spent quite a bit of time working on Lockheed products during my time with the USAF, and miss seeing those old Starlifters flying overhead.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

Yep. That Bill Anders. He took over as CEO of General Dynamics in the late 80s or early 90s, and wasn't very popular with the Hourly workforce. I'm not sure he was much more popular with the Salaried workforce. Before his ascending to the position, General Dynamics was one of the largest, if not the largest, Government Contractor in the United States. Now, it's barely a shadow of what it once was.

I wasn't being critical of your design, or the image; just that I rather miss the old General Dynamics, when it was a company worth working for. Nothing against Lockheed Martin, either. I spent quite a bit of time working on Lockheed products during my time with the USAF, and miss seeing those old Starlifters flying overhead.

I know you weren’t being critical. I totally understand your point regarding GD. I guess I was just being overly technical. So I had a question based on your first comment. Did GD merge with Convair, or did they partner on the XL?

 

[Hoomi]

I know you weren’t being critical. I totally understand your point regarding GD. I guess I was just being overly technical. So I had a question based on your first comment. Did GD merge with Convair, or did they partner on the XL?

Convair was purchased by General Dynamics in 1953, while Convair itself was a merger of Consolidated Aircraft and Vultee Aircraft in 1943.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

Ah, ok. I was wondering what happened to convair after the Century Series fighters.

 

[Hoomi]

As I recall, the Convair name continued to be used for quite a while, listed as the "General Dynamics, Convair Division." The San Diego, California, plant site, where the Tomahawk Cruise Missile was built until the Tucson Transition, was marked as a Convair site, even into the 1980s. Typically, though, the Division where the F-16 was built was more commonly referred to by Corporate as the Fort Worth Division, though it was the legacy Convair facilities.

I think my biggest issue with the Lockheed Martin logo on the F16XL illustration, is that the XL never went into production, and was essentially a dead program before the aircraft business was sold. While LM owns the designs developed by the business, I tend to see it much the same way as any historical aircraft. For example, the Consolidated PBY Catalina, one of the iconic seaplanes of WWII, technically became a Convair design when Consolidated and Vultee merged, and then technically became a General Dynamics owned design when GD acquired Convair in 1953, but the Catalina is never referred to as either a Convair product, or a General Dynamics product. It was designed and built by Consolidated, and therefore, is referred to as the Consolidated PBY Catalina.

Since the standard F16 is still in production by Lockheed Martin, I can understand avoiding further confusion by referring to all production aircraft as Lockheed Martin, even those old enough to have been built by General Dynamics. Since the only two prototype F16XL aircraft were built by General Dynamics, though, they should follow the same practice as other historic aircraft, and be referred to by their actual builder, and not the company that acquired the design rights later.

But, that's just my opinion.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

As I recall, the Convair name continued to be used for quite a while, listed as the "General Dynamics, Convair Division." The San Diego, California, plant site, where the Tomahawk Cruise Missile was built until the Tucson Transition, was marked as a Convair site, even into the 1980s. Typically, though, the Division where the F-16 was built was more commonly referred to by Corporate as the Fort Worth Division, though it was the legacy Convair facilities.

I think my biggest issue with the Lockheed Martin logo on the F16XL illustration, is that the XL never went into production, and was essentially a dead program before the aircraft business was sold. While LM owns the designs developed by the business, I tend to see it much the same way as any historical aircraft. For example, the Consolidated PBY Catalina, one of the iconic seaplanes of WWII, technically became a Convair design when Consolidated and Vultee merged, and then technically became a General Dynamics owned design when GD acquired Convair in 1953, but the Catalina is never referred to as either a Convair product, or a General Dynamics product. It was designed and built by Consolidated, and therefore, is referred to as the Consolidated PBY Catalina.

Since the standard F16 is still in production by Lockheed Martin, I can understand avoiding further confusion by referring to all production aircraft as Lockheed Martin, even those old enough to have been built by General Dynamics. Since the only two prototype F16XL aircraft were built by General Dynamics, though, they should follow the same practice as other historic aircraft, and be referred to by their actual builder, and not the company that acquired the design rights later.

But, that's just my opinion.

I totally agree!

 

[SSgt Duramax]

You got me thinking I may need to build one of my favorite Ace Combat Infinity ground attack planes.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

You got me thinking I may need to build one of my favorite Ace Combat Infinity ground attack planes.

I'd love to see it! There was an actual proposal for an F-22 with that configuration. Too bad. Aircraft like that, the F-16XL, the F-20, YF-23, and the F-14/21 should have all been produced. Unfortunately, because of money, these never entered production.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

Ok, FINALLY, l am done with the design and build phase! That was an ordeal! I'm glad that it's assembled now! Thank You all for sticking around to see this project evolve. I greatly appreciate it, it means a lot. I also enjoyed the discussion with @Hoomi as well as the other related discussions on this thread. I still need to install the servos (and the foam board "actuator pods" on the wings), as well as finding the CG, but I have a pretty good idea of where it will be. My normal CG calculator won't allow for a cranked delta wing, so I taped together my test wings to find the CG that way. Let me know if you have any CG calculators that will allow for a cranked delta. So, before I show the pictures, let me say that my wings have a KFm-2 airfoil on them. Initial chuck glide tests indicate that they provide sufficient lift for this application. Wings are glued directly to the fuselage and have several doublers to secure it. Total servo count will be 4, two per side, since it has dual elevons. Alrighty, here is the finished airframe minus servos:

Now on to figuring out the CG and putting in the servos.

 

[The Hangar]

Ok, FINALLY, l am done with the design and build phase! That was an ordeal! I'm glad that it's assembled now! Thank You all for sticking around to see this project evolve. I greatly appreciate it, it means a lot. I also enjoyed the discussion with @Hoomi as well as the other related discussions on this thread. I still need to install the servos (and the foam board "actuator pods" on the wings), as well as finding the CG, but I have a pretty good idea of where it will be. My normal CG calculator won't allow for a cranked delta wing, so I taped together my test wings to find the CG that way. Let me know if you have any CG calculators that will allow for a cranked delta. So, before I show the pictures, let me say that my wings have a KFm-2 airfoil on them. Initial chuck glide tests indicate that they provide sufficient lift for this application. Wings are glued directly to the fuselage and have several doublers to secure it. Total servo count will be 4, two per side, since it has dual elevons. Alrighty, here is the finished airframe minus servos:
View attachment 212027
View attachment 212028 View attachment 212029
Now on to figuring out the CG and putting in the servos.

Beautiful!!

 

[Matthew Sanders]

"Whatever happens, just remember, we TRIED, and NO ONE can take that away from us"
-Colonel Charles "Chappy" Sinclair, USAF from the movie "Iron Eagle"

I failed.
I failed my YouTube channel fans,
I failed you, the followers of this project,
But, mostly, I failed myself.

I was planning to attach the servos to the XL this morning, with the goal of having it flight ready by mid afternoon. I first had to cut out the actuator pods, which I did. I was making good time.

I guess I should interject here that one of the reasons this took so long was the fact that I'm actually in the process of moving out of the state. This is one of my final days living in the house where I grew up, and the last possible day to fly on account of the weather. Back to the story.

Back in September, I totaled my FT Spitfire, and so I took all the hardware out (including the control horns) and put it in a bag. Why? Back then, when I thought the XL would be a quick and easy project, I planned to also build my "Windsurfer 1.5m" aircraft, featured in this video:

When the XL project ran into some trouble, I decided to pour all my hobby time into working on it. When it became apparent that it would take even longer than expected, I shelved the Windsurfer idea and put the hardware for that project, which was in the same bag, into my "essential RC box".
Fast forward to today. I installed my starboard (right) elevon servos and control horns. I was really close to being flight ready. All I had to do was install my port (left) elevon servos, program my DX6e, find the CG, and fly. But, when I went to my Spitfire bag to find two more control horns for the left wing, I discovered that there were none. The thing is, I remember putting them in the bag, but they weren't there. I must have packed them away with the rest of my "non-essential" RC gear. I intentionally kept a lot of things out to build this jet. But, just two pieces of wood, costing me but 25 cents a piece, would prevent me from flying today.
So close, yet so far. I know some of you will say "That's ok, we can wait for you to move and then we'll see it when you complete it." Here's the thing. I knew we wouldn't have enough space to ship the completed XL. I was ok with throwing it away if I'd gotten to fly it. I could have shown you all a video of it flying. Well, it's not looking like I'll be able to bring it with me. I could have found a way to use two servos and fly it like that, if I had time and appropriate flying conditions, which, I will not for the next few days, up to the day I leave.

Needless to say, I am extremely disappointed that it ended this way. I might build another, if I do, I'll continue this thread. I'll try my best to take the current airframe with me, but definitely no guarantees.

I'm sorry. I know it's just a foam plane, and that it's not as important as other things in life, but it was a special project to me, since the F-16 is my favorite fighter. I couldn't think of a better final project for me to complete while still living here. So, that's why I feel like I failed, because I did. I failed to complete a project that I really, REALLY wanted to complete. I did learn a valuable lesson today, though. Actually, I learned several. I just wish that I hadn't had to learn those lessons today. But, I guess that makes it more memorable so the lessons aren't ever forgotten.


A special thing did happen to me today. A US Navy F/A-18E "Super Hornet" flew right over my house!

Guess who didn't have his phone on to record it. 😐

 

[SSgt Duramax]

I failed.
I failed my YouTube channel fans,
I failed you, the followers of this project,
But, mostly, I failed myself.

I was planning to attach the servos to the XL this morning, with the goal of having it flight ready by mid afternoon. I first had to cut out the actuator pods, which I did. I was making good time.
I guess I should interject here that one of the reasons this took so long was the fact that I'm actually in the process of moving out of the state. This is one of my final days living in the house where I grew up, and the last possible day to fly on account of the weather. Back to the story.
Back in September, I totaled my FT Spitfire, and so I took all the hardware out (including the control horns) and put it in a bag. Why? Back then, when I thought the XL would be a quick and easy project, I planned to also build my "Windsurfer 1.5m" aircraft, featured in this video:

When the XL project ran into some trouble, I decided to pour all my hobby time into working on it. When it became apparent that it would take even longer than expected, I shelved the Windsurfer idea and put the hardware for that project, which was in the same bag, into my "essential RC box".
Fast forward to today. I installed my starboard (right) elevon servos and control horns. I was really close to being flight ready. All I had to do was install my port (left) elevon servos, program my DX6e, find the CG, and fly. But, when I went to my Spitfire bag to find two more control horns for the left wing, I discovered that there were none. The thing is, I remember putting them in the bag, but they weren't there. I must have packed them away with the rest of my "non-essential" RC gear. I intentionally kept a lot of things out to build this jet. But, just two pieces of wood, costing me but 25 cents a piece, would prevent me from flying today.
So close, yet so far. I know some of you will say "That's ok, we can wait for you to move and then we'll see it when you complete it." Here's the thing. I knew we wouldn't have enough space to ship the completed XL. I was ok with throwing it away if I'd gotten to fly it. I could have shown you all a video of it flying. Well, it's not looking like I'll be able to bring it with me. I could have found a way to use two servos and fly it like that, if I had time and appropriate flying conditions, which, I will not for the next few days, up to the day I leave.

Needless to say, I am extremely disappointed that it ended this way. I might build another, if I do, I'll continue this thread. I'll try my best to take the current airframe with me, but definitely no guarantees.

I'm sorry. I know it's just a foam plane, and that it's not as important as other things in life, but it was a special project to me, since the F-16 is my favorite fighter. I couldn't think of a better final project for me to complete while still living here. So, that's why I feel like I failed, because I did. I failed to complete a project that I really, REALLY wanted to complete. I did learn a valuable lesson today, though. Actually, I learned several. I just wish that I hadn't had to learn those lessons today. But, I guess that makes it more memorable so the lessons aren't ever forgotten.


A special thing did happen to me today. A US Navy F/A-18E "Super Hornet" flew right over my house today!

Guess who didn't have his phone on to record it. 😐

That sucks man. I'm sorry. If you made plans and were willing to share them maybe someone could carry the torch on this.

Is there a way you can just transport the harder to build things? Like maybe the nose and intake scoop and scrap the easier to build stuff? That way the wound isn't so deep and you will have a decent starting point to get back in at instead of feeling like you are back at square one.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

That sucks man. I'm sorry. If you made plans and were willing to share them maybe someone could carry the torch on this.

Is there a way you can just transport the harder to build things? Like maybe the nose and intake scoop and scrap the easier to build stuff? That way the wound isn't so deep and you will have a decent starting point to get back in at instead of feeling like you are back at square one.

I can try. The fuselage is just from the F-16 designed by Mid7night. I don't actually have software to design plans but I can share the wing measurements certainly. I'll look into what I can cut down to take with me, and you're right, that would soften the blow.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

It's funny how things in life happen.
My family has delayed our departure from our current residence to enjoy the Thanksgiving Holiday. That means that we will still be here on a day that the weather will be nice.
My current situation: the only model aircraft that I have with me is the XL. Following my failure to execute my planned flight(s) on Sunday, I felt pretty disappointed. My situation is still the same with the control horns. Still only have 2/4. Looking in my Spitfire support bag to see if I had anything of use, I saw 4 servos. That's 4 servos IN ADDITION TO the required 4 flight servos. Suddenly, I had an epiphany. The servo arms are control horns in a sense. Hmmmmm

To be continued....

 

[Matthew Sanders]

It seems like the Aerospace Matt F-16XL Project 2021 has been given a second chance.

Ironically, I completed the airframe Today, November 23, 2021. That is EXACTLY 2 years to the day since I completed my first ever EDF jet build, the FT Viggen. Weird how things work out that way. If you don't believe me, it's in the thread my friend @The Hangar started in 2019, FT Viggen Group Build.

After realizing that Servo arms could themselves be glued to the control surfaces and act as control horns, I got to work.
And, here is the result:

That is the Right Inboard Elevon. The other 3 are just like it. If you are wondering, yes, I used packing tape to secure the control surfaces to the wing.
Setting up the aircraft was WAY easier than I expected. Took less than 5 minutes. I'm stunned. I thought it would take at least 30 minutes to an hour of "programming" to get it to work!

With that, all I have to do is find the CG and program Dual Rates and Expo, and I'll be ready to fly tomorrow.

I'll share some more pictures in another post in a bit. If you have any camera angles you'd like me to share, let me know, and I'll put those in the picture post.
Stay Tuned!

 

[Pieliker96]

It seems like the Aerospace Matt F-16XL Project 2021 has been given a second chance.

Ironically, I completed the airframe Today, November 23, 2021. That is EXACTLY 2 years to the day since I completed my first ever EDF jet build, the FT Viggen. Weird how things work out that way. If you don't believe me, it's in the thread my friend @The Hangar started in 2019, FT Viggen Group Build.

After realizing that Servo arms could themselves be glued to the control surfaces and act as control horns, I got to work.
And, here is the result:
View attachment 212378
That is the Right Inboard Elevon. The other 3 are just like it. If you are wondering, yes, I used packing tape to secure the control surfaces to the wing.
Setting up the aircraft was WAY easier than I expected. Took less than 5 minutes. I'm stunned. I thought it would take at least 30 minutes to an hour of "programming" to get it to work!

With that, all I have to do is find the CG and program Dual Rates and Expo, and I'll be ready to fly tomorrow.

I'll share some more pictures in another post in a bit. If you have any camera angles you'd like me to share, let me know, and I'll put those in the picture post.
Stay Tuned!

Best of luck on the maiden flight!

Make absolutely sure the servo can generate control forces without either the hinge or control horn coming undone: make sure it's good enough for flight loads. When I used servo arms as control horns and didn't anchor them well enough to the control surface, one of the elevons spontaneously freed itself!

Oh and one more thing: don't feel the need to apologize to for projects that don't turn out optimally. Sometimes things don't turn out as you'd like, even if you gave it your all. and that's okay - that's life.

"Whatever happens, happens."
-Spike Spiegel, Cowboy Bebop

 

[Matthew Sanders]

Best of luck on the maiden flight!

Make absolutely sure the servo can generate control forces without either the hinge or control horn coming undone: make sure it's good enough for flight loads. When I used servo arms as control horns and didn't anchor them well enough to the control surface, one of the elevons spontaneously freed itself!

View attachment 212381

Oh and one more thing: don't feel the need to apologize to for projects that don't turn out optimally. Sometimes things don't turn out as you'd like, even if you gave it your all. and that's okay - that's life.

"Whatever happens, happens."
-Spike Spiegel, Cowboy Bebop

I'll definitely check all of the arms and reinforce if necessary. Do you have any pictures of how you attatched your servo arms so I can see what you did?
[EDIT] Correct me if I'm wrong, Thats a B-1B Lancer! How did you make the wings sweep(if you did) And, I appreciate the kind words. When it looked like I wouldn't be able to complete the project, I felt that I had failed everyone. But, it's looking like I'll get to try it tomorrow. I must admit, for me, the meaning of "emotional roller coaster" has a new feel to it.

 

[Pieliker96]

I'll definitely check all of the arms and reinforce if necessary. Do you have any pictures of how you attatched your servo arms so I can see what you did?
[EDIT] Correct me if I'm wrong, Thats a B-1B Lancer! How did you make the wings sweep(if you did) And, I appreciate the kind words. When it looked like I wouldn't be able to complete the project, I felt that I had failed everyone. But, it's looking like I'll get to try it tomorrow. I must admit, for me, the meaning of "emotional roller coaster" has a new feel to it.

Here's how everything looked - they were all-moving elevons:


And here's how it failed, along with more details on the project scattered about the rest of the thread.

 

[Matthew Sanders]

Here's how everything looked - they were all-moving elevons:
View attachment 212406 View attachment 212407 View attachment 212408

And here's how it failed, along with more details on the project scattered about the rest of the thread.

Hmmm, that's how you make all moving "stabilators" with foam board. I might employ this method on another project, making sure to glue it in really well and reinforce it.