Help! CG got me puzzled?!

Tench745

Master member
I was just thinking, if you plan on adding landing gear to all this they will not only add weight ahead of the CG, but also add a lot of drag to the bottom of the aircraft. That added drag will cause a downward pitching moment which will help counteract the pitch upwards that you're fighting right now.
Additionally, I didn't see it in the build thread, but did you make the tail surfaces bigger compared to the real airplane?

Otherwise, I second pretty much everything Arcfyre said above.
This thing is getting close.
 

mayan

Legendary member
@mayan I watched the above video.

Unfortunately, it seems you were only able to capture 50% of the actual flying. Very often times you were out of frame, and it was difficult to observe the airplane. Maybe you can rig something with a hat cam for next time?

On to what I observed. In general, I think you are on the right track with the thrust angle. The first flight, looping without elevator input, is an obvious sign that the thrust angle is off. As you said in the video, it is a similar behavior to what you had with the simple soarer. After you changed the thrust angle, I feel like it flew noticeably better in regards to pitch response to throttle input.

Here is where I run in to issues with your troubleshooting methods. You are changing too many things at once and it makes it hard to see clear cause and effect relationships. By changing the thrust angle AND removing the cowling, you were making two changes simultaneously that kind of cancelled each other out. Granted, the cowl doesn't weigh much, but it is weight in front of the CG, and by removing it, you made the plane more tail heavy. So you'd have down thrust helping to keep the nose down, but less nose weight, pushing the nose up. See what I'm getting at? The down thrust would help with the pitch on power issue, but in general your plane will still be pitch sensitive due to balance being off. Additionally, after changing the thrust angle, make sure you reset your elevator trim to neutral. If you fly it with the old trim setting, it will give you a misleading indication of what the result of your change is.

On your second to last flight, you changed yet another parameter by having a different battery installed. I wasn't able to pick up if you changed the thrust angle again for that flight, but the battery came loose and the results from that flight are essentially invalid.

Based on very limited observation, I would say that your plane is suffering from three issues:

1. Your established C of G is incorrect. It needs to be moved forward to eliminate tail heaviness. You removed the cowl and the landing gear, both items that help move the balance point forward. I would add those back on to get the plane to balance better.

2. Your stock thrust angle is too high. Your second attempt had much better response to throttle (some pitch up under power for a high wing model is normal) I would leave it at "one washer down" like you had, and try to correct the CG before adjusting it more.

3. There is something wrong with the motor or prop installation. You are getting some nasty vibration above what sounds like 50% throttle. Make sure that when you put the washer on for down thrust, the motor is still securely attached to the firewall. You may need to use more or different washers to set this correct angle, but a motor that vibrates like that is not ok. It will drastically impact handling. Also check that the prop has no broken blades and that its centered on the prop adapter.

I know you're frustrated, but I think you are very close to having a nice flying airplane. Thrust angle down a bit, and move that CG forward.

And tape your phone to your forehead or something so I can actually see you fly. :ROFLMAO::LOL:
I will try changing less things at a time although I tested the plane without the cowl before adding washer just to confirm the issue continues. I have a weird unexplainable feeling that the problems are occurring because of a changed wing cord.

I was just thinking, if you plan on adding landing gear to all this they will not only add weight ahead of the CG, but also add a lot of drag to the bottom of the aircraft. That added drag will cause a downward pitching moment which will help counteract the pitch upwards that you're fighting right now.
Additionally, I didn't see it in the build thread, but did you make the tail surfaces bigger compared to the real airplane?

Otherwise, I second pretty much everything Arcfyre said above.
This thing is getting close.
Nope they are as per the plans.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Quick view says you built a NACA engine cowl, noted for its ability to generate thrust. Notice it bobble stalling engine off glide, so you either have a cg issue or incidence problems or way too much up trim. What happens in a test glide if you add a popsicle stick to the bottom back of the wing next to the rubber bands? Shoot a wing side view with the elevator level so we can check incidence, please. Your plans show what looks like a ton of positive incidence. Also show what you are using for CG location. Should be somewhere near the front edge of the high point.
 
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Merv

Site Moderator
Staff member
I agree with @Piotrsko, as a first step to diagnosing this problem, the plane needs to be trimmed to fly straight & level at full throttle.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
I agree with @Piotrsko, as a first step to diagnosing this problem, the plane needs to be trimmed to fly straight & level at full throttle.
Excuse me, but, the problem is severe nose up on high throttle. There is notable down thrust. There seems to be excess up elevator, so test process should start at engine off glide
 

mayan

Legendary member
Alright so tomorrow will hit the field for some more tests and we’ll have some more feedback to share. Thanks for all the tips so far keep them coming.
 

Arcfyre

Elite member
Alright so tomorrow will hit the field for some more tests and we’ll have some more feedback to share. Thanks for all the tips so far keep them coming.

Have a plan of what you're going to test, and try to only test one change at a time. Keep the flights short so you don't have to swap batteries. Best of luck, my friend.
 

mayan

Legendary member
I went out and did a few checks footage wasn’t great but I tried to make the most of it. Video is a bit long but appreciate if you watch it through and give me your feedback about the glide tests and pitch issue. Thanks in advance.

 

Piotrsko

Master member
Noticeable positive incidence/ up elevator when you showed the side view.

Progress!!!

3rd flight showed improvement, last flight looked about as good as that will get. Big motor/prop is always going to drag the nose high. Popsicle sticks on underside of wing at the end of the flat portion? Couldn't tell

So forward cg with the big battery, down thrust like last flight, 2 popsicle sticks ought to do it maybe a trim click or two down elevator. Power off glide now isn't showing stall bobble on last flight. Finally, it does not look like you can throw it fast enough to test glide so you may want to stop power off test throws.
 

mayan

Legendary member
Noticeable positive incidence/ up elevator when you showed the side view.

Progress!!!

3rd flight showed improvement, last flight looked about as good as that will get. Big motor/prop is always going to drag the nose high. Popsicle sticks on underside of wing at the end of the flat portion? Couldn't tell

So forward cg with the big battery, down thrust like last flight, 2 popsicle sticks ought to do it maybe a trim click or two down elevator. Power off glide now isn't showing stall bobble on last flight. Finally, it does not look like you can throw it fast enough to test glide so you may want to stop power off test throws.
Thanks buddy for the tips. I am thinking a positive wing incidence of 0.5mm and a 0.25 down thrust angle on the motor should do the trick. I need to rebuild stuff and fix stuff so I put it aside for a moment. Feel like I need a bit of happy flying time, so that I don't get too bumped out about not being able to get it to fly properly. I also need to build a new wing and pushed the spar a bit back toward the trailing edge on the plans so that might also have some effect on the flight and want to check everything again with and without the wing incidence and down thrust.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Try to keep the spar around 30% of the wing chord measured from the front. Optimum for the Clark Y style airfoil foamboard wings. Further back makes the high point cause nasty stalls and makes your incidence problem worse.
 

Wildthing

Legendary member
Try to keep the spar around 30% of the wing chord measured from the front. Optimum for the Clark Y style airfoil foamboard wings. Further back makes the high point cause nasty stalls and makes your incidence problem worse.
The Clark Y is my go to airfoil
 

Wildthing

Legendary member
Thanks buddy for the tips. I am thinking a positive wing incidence of 0.5mm and a 0.25 down thrust angle on the motor should do the trick. I need to rebuild stuff and fix stuff so I put it aside for a moment. Feel like I need a bit of happy flying time, so that I don't get too bumped out about not being able to get it to fly properly. I also need to build a new wing and pushed the spar a bit back toward the trailing edge on the plans so that might also have some effect on the flight and want to check everything again with and without the wing incidence and down thrust.

Do you ever use any of those online cg calculators to get your initial cg point ?
 

mayan

Legendary member
Try to keep the spar around 30% of the wing chord measured from the front. Optimum for the Clark Y style airfoil foamboard wings. Further back makes the high point cause nasty stalls and makes your incidence problem worse.
It was actually at around 25% so I pushed it back to 30%.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Nice calculator. Crash enough like me and you can just look at a plane to see why it didn't work right. I'm responsible for a whole forest of dead balsa trees.

Besides all the published airfoils have a CoP ( center of pressure) datum which is generally where you need to calculate your main spar and a bit forward for CG. Remember, I am old school.
 

Wildthing

Legendary member
Nice calculator. Crash enough like me and you can just look at a plane to see why it didn't work right. I'm responsible for a whole forest of dead balsa trees.

Besides all the published airfoils have a CoP ( center of pressure) datum which is generally where you need to calculate your main spar and a bit forward for CG. Remember, I am old school.
I am old but didn't understand a word you said. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: