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CR-10 3D Printer

LitterBug

Troll Spammer
#21
Jim,
I'm curious about a few things. Did you use the same filament for the shot glass as the print test? Was the Shot Glass a .gcode file, and the print test a .stl? If you go back and print another shot glass, does it print just as good as the first time? If so, it would be the slicing settings of the print test to blame.

Cheers!
LitterBug
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#22
Ah. That's what I was typing up to ask when we had a fire drill.

So then I am correct in thinking that the shamrock cup and the test print should have had much closer quality than we're seeing. I can start another shamrock print using the exact file as before and see if something mechanical has changed. Otherwise I'll look into the software settings. Is there something better than Cura that is recommended for a Mac? I saved an .stl file to the micro sd card but when I put it in the printer control it won't load to the menu. All I see in the menu are file folders and .gcode files.

Update:
Now home from work I initiated a reprint of the shamrock and after 24 minutes of printing it looked as solid as before.
Screen Shot 2017-12-01 at 4.03.45 PM.png

While it was printing I took a gander at the numbers on the test print figure and found Fill Density % set to 20. I'm thinking that would correlate with what we saw. I bumped it up to 100 and initiated the print. It's going now and will take a few hours. I found another test print that prints similar structures but in a larger ring around the bed. After this print I think I will switch to that one as a more comprehensive test.

I have a uncle/niece date tonight and will swing by Walmart to get smart on hairspray. Can yo imagine what my wife will think when she returns from Spain with me telling her we can now share hair sprays?

By the way, no one commented on the brownish stains on the test print. Was I off base? Is there another thought on this?
 
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ComikzInk

Soft and Foofy
#23
Hi Jim,

Got the same printer, It's a wonderful one at that so you've made a good choice. Been printing for a bit so I'll chime in a bit too.

I've got mine pretty well tuned in Cura 15.04.6 (came with my old Delta printer), seeing as we've got the same one I'm more than happy to share my settings if you want. I do however use tape on my glass and have the bed heater off as I find my PLA adheres too the tape like superglue. Hairspray for the glass will work fine though like others have suggested and you'll get much smoother bottom layers that way.

As for your question about the brown stains those are indeed a result of the filament getting a little toasty. I find it occurs from either nozzle jams or the nozzle collecting excess filament and depositing it elsewhere. The CR-10 does extrude a bit more than it should so on your flow percentage you can knock that back a bit maybe to 98% which should stop the nozzle clogging when extruding. A clear sign it's clogging is the extrusion stepper motor will skip steps and you'll hear noticeable clicking sounds as the filament slips back over the brass gear.

Lia~
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#24
Lia,
Thanks for the insight. The test I initiated is still going. It looks like it's going over 6 hours. And though it looks substantially better than the first, there remain some issues. For one thing, the porous look that it had has greatly diminished. Once it finishes I'll inspect it and show photos.

In the meantime I heard on one video that the Cura version that came is inferior to more recent versions and I should download the latest and greatest one. I'm fine with that but if there is a preferred option over Cura I'd rather not waste time. One program I saw was Simplify. I have no idea/experience with these so I'm going with the trusted forum and welcome suggestions.

I just got back from Walmart where I did not find PVP in any hairsprays (even aqua net) or glue sticks (many didn't list ingredients).:mad:
IMG_1802.jpg
This is a can of Aquanet.

So where to from here? For one thing, a 6+ hour print seems excessive to me. I'm gonna wok this issue, at least for now, with something not so time consuming. Maybe I'll come back to it when after finding results by other prints. That and learning about Cura and its competitors to settle with one good one.

And as I'm about to click Post, the print continues. It sounds very busy but looks like is has a fair amount more to print. I'll be back...
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#25
Lia,
Thanks for the insight. The test I initiated is still going. It looks like it's going over 6 hours. And though it looks substantially better than the first, there remain some issues. For one thing, the porous look that it had has greatly diminished. Once it finishes I'll inspect it and show photos.

In the meantime I heard on one video that the Cura version that came is inferior to more recent versions and I should download the latest and greatest one. I'm fine with that but if there is a preferred option over Cura I'd rather not waste time. One program I saw was Simplify. I have no idea/experience with these so I'm going with the trusted forum and welcome suggestions.

I just got back from Walmart where I did not find PVP in any hairsprays (even aqua net) or glue sticks (many didn't list ingredients).:mad:
View attachment 98822
This is a can of Aquanet.

So where to from here? For one thing, a 6+ hour print seems excessive to me. I'm gonna wok this issue, at least for now, with something not so time consuming. Maybe I'll come back to it when after finding results by other prints. That and learning about Cura and its competitors to settle with one good one.

And as I'm about to click Post, the print continues. It sounds very busy but looks like is has a fair amount more to print. I'll be back...
Go with the aquanet anyway while I find that blog post where I learned about the chemical and make sure I remembered the right one :eek:
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#26
Boogers. Can't find the origional post but it was a couple years ago and I probably screwed something up in my memory about the hairspray adhesive. The PVP is the active agent in many glue sticks and hot glue - that at least I was able to find again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylpyrrolidone

And I thought it was the vinyl compound in hair spray that's the key for PLA, but even though my memory said they were the same compound, I don't think they are the exact same ones anymore.

Sorry - my bad!
 

ComikzInk

Soft and Foofy
#27
Lia,
Thanks for the insight. The test I initiated is still going. It looks like it's going over 6 hours. And though it looks substantially better than the first, there remain some issues. For one thing, the porous look that it had has greatly diminished. Once it finishes I'll inspect it and show photos.

In the meantime I heard on one video that the Cura version that came is inferior to more recent versions and I should download the latest and greatest one. I'm fine with that but if there is a preferred option over Cura I'd rather not waste time. One program I saw was Simplify. I have no idea/experience with these so I'm going with the trusted forum and welcome suggestions.

So where to from here? For one thing, a 6+ hour print seems excessive to me. I'm gonna wok this issue, at least for now, with something not so time consuming. Maybe I'll come back to it when after finding results by other prints. That and learning about Cura and its competitors to settle with one good one.

And as I'm about to click Post, the print continues. It sounds very busy but looks like is has a fair amount more to print. I'll be back...
The one it comes with I think is version 14.something.something,I personally I prefer 15.04.6 as it just works but I'll step aside if the more experienced printers here have moved on and found others like "Simplify" are better. Some slicers will give more options and smarter slicing methods but usually it's just personal preference.

6 Hours is a bit long for a print (assuming it's a small one). Might be your settings, I usually go with a layer height of 0.2 (0.1 is a bit excessively high res and doubles the time). Always use as little infill as possible unless it's load bearing or the top layer is large enough to need something underneath. Less infill takes chunks of time out of a print the taller it is. Print speed is a given, some people like to crank their printer as fast as they can, currently mine is doing fine at 100mm/s and hasn't made a mistake.

For my printer at least I use the following and get fairly reasonable speeds (basic settings). These should work in other slicers but may be named differently. Make note of what you had before and maybe then try the below and see if you get faster and still decent prints.
  • Layer height : 0.2 mm
  • Shell thickness : 0.8 mm (2 layers on the walls)
  • Enable retraction : yes (helps prevent stringing)
  • Bottom/Top thickness : 0.6 (3 layers top and bottom)
  • Fill density : 0-25% (I never use more unless I want it nearly solid)
  • print speed : 50-100 mm/s (depends on how fast you think yours can go)
  • print temperature : 195C (depends on filament, some like it lower or higher for PLA)
  • Support : 60-70 degrees (if needed)
  • Platform adhesion : Brim (2-3 lines, more for tall thin objects. Raft adds a lot of time for wider items)
  • Flow : 96-98% (extrusion rate, lower means less filament per step, helps stop over extrusion)
  • Nozzle size : 0.4 (diameter of nozzle hole and thus the width of the filament that comes out)
 

dkj4linux

Active member
#28
No experience with the CR10 or Cura but lots of hairspray on glass experience... printed numerous parts for half-dozen MPCNCs and assorted other machines on a FolgerTech 2020 I3 and a can will last "forever" and works exceptionally well with the PLA filaments I've used. Not a chemist either so not sure which chemical it is does the trick but... the Aquanet hairspray I and others have recommended can be found at Dollar General stores in my neck of the woods. It's about the cheapest, gnarliest stuff you can find and "extra hold" is without doubt a good thing. Showing my age, when I was dating 50+ years ago, the ladies liberally sprayed the stuff on to create a "helmet" of hair that literally CRUNCH-ed when you touched/mashed on it ;)
 
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JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#29
Now a fresh day and some new things learned... I think.

First the crappy test print.
Screen Shot 2017-12-02 at 10.26.03 AM.png Screen Shot 2017-12-02 at 10.26.22 AM.png Screen Shot 2017-12-02 at 10.26.42 AM.png
These are my 1st attempt, 2nd attempt, and desired print.

What I discovered this morning, after 8 hours and 25 minutes of printing the 2nd print, is another setting in Cura that, in my slowly diminishing ignorance, was off. RockyBoy brought it up but I was too newb and overwhelmed to catch it at the time. Filament diameter was set to something higher than 1.75". I don't remember if it was 1.8 or 2.8 but something with an 8 in it and since it was expecting more volume per mm it would stand to reason that I would lack volume and density in the resulting print. So I changed that value and initiated another print but not this one. I've pulled a Benchy print that everyone seems to use and find its proclaimed 1+ hour print favorable for diagnosing this than the 8+ hour print. Once I get everything all tweaked as best I can I might go back to that other one to see what happens.

I also did some learning on the programs that make gcode. I learned they are called slicers because of how they break an object apart for printing. Of course it makes sense now but before learning this "slicer" was just another word that was a bit foreign. So looking at some slicer reviews I found that Cura is a free one and Simplify3D costs $150. I suspect I'm going to be allergic to Simplify3D and must try something else. I might stick with Cura if I can learn it and make it work. I think I am the weakest link in this print problem and it's just my ignorance keeping me from getting the setting right.

Thank you Lia. You are correct about the Cura 14~ or something (I'd check but the card is in the 3D controller). Last night I saw a comparison to that and a more recent Cura 2.5. Looking now at the Ultimaker site they show a 3.0.4 and a beta 3.1 available. I'm temted to go for the 3.0.4 but might wait for a solid 3.1. What I don't want to do is throw in another variable before I get my mind wrapped around what is going on and get myself lost.

My Benchy is just over 45 minutes and looking good so far.

Thank you David and thank you John (no apology necessary). I remember 40+ years ago my mother donning the same helmet while I would take a deep breath before walking past. Chemicals aside, if you say Aquanet then Aquanet it will be, maybe. After this Benchy finishes on the tape I'll run it again on the 2 kinds of sprays my wife already uses.

Post Benchy print update:

Here is my first Benchy print. It certainly looks better than the other 2 test prints but not quite as good as the shamrock cup. The cup doesn't look like it's a challenging a print so that could be a reason. Regardless there remain things to understand, discover, & tweak. Let me know what y'all think.

IMG_1283.jpeg IMG_2250.jpeg IMG_8598.jpeg

I think one step I need to take is taking the shamrock cup from the .stl file and run it through Cura with the settings I have and see if it comes out as before.

Thank you Jason, your comment on the tape thickness didn't hit the grey matter until last night. On that I'm thinking if I ever use tape again I should account for that. I could stick some tape on the paper I'm using.

But for now, hairspray testing.

Hairspray update:

I've begun buidling my navy, one Benchy at a time. So far both hairsprays did well. Each time there was still plenty of adhesion left over, much more than I would expect necessary yet not so much I couldn't muscle it off with one hand (I work out). The hairsprays I used were the Aussie mega flexible hold and the TRESemmé TRES TWO SPRAY extra hold. Both smell much better than the what I remember of my mother's Aquanet. Just when I thought I couldn't love my wife more she comes through again. If my wife changes hairsprays or if either of these fail, or if she makes me buy my own I'll post again.

So now with what I would call a working situation I'm going to settle into Cura and see if I can improve the shipbuilding process in my navy. I still have some recommendations from above that I have to look at like measuring filament diameter and verifying extruder feed for starters. Right now I'm printing the shamrock again but this time I didn't use the provided .gcode but rather the provided .stl and put it through Cura with the same settings I have for the Benchy. If it comes out inferior to the past 2 then I'll know there is still a setting that is off.

Eventually I also want to print some things that I can actually use... like one of those doohickies that keep the filament away from the lead screw. It bothers me.
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
#30
There are a BUNCH of slicers out there. Cura and Slic3r are the two most popular free ones and Simplify is much loved by those who are willing to shell out $150 for it. Apparently Simplify is pretty good at "just working" without having to learn how to tune your prints...but by the time I heard about it I had already figured out Slic3r and I just can't see spending 50% of what I spend on my printer on slicing software.

Cura is maintained by ultimachine who also designed the RAMPS and Rambo boards that are probably the most popular control boards out there. They do good stuff. I'm just not a huge fan of Cura. It's pretty, it slices very fast, and it generates very efficient gcode so prints can be quicker. But...I have a hard time "tuning" it because of how it won't slice thin things so you have to trick it into doing single width extrusions. And that's not going to change because the developers take a very different approach to how they interpret the geometry defined in STL files and have basically said "Don't make things that thin if you want them to slice with Cura". So while I consider it a bug they consider it a feature. Which is why I generally don't use cura even though it's pretty darn quick.

Slic3r has been around forever and is not exactly user friendly...it's not exactly user hostile either but it doesn't sugar coat things as much as Cura and Simplify3D do. Cura and S3D you can still get to the complex settings if you want but they're generally hidden from you by default. Slic3r on the other hand it's always there and can be intimidating. On the other hand if you're the kind of person who loves experimenting and pushing buttons then having all that stuff right out where you can tinker with it is great. I definitely fall into that category ;)

Your benchy is looking much improved. Getting your filament diameter right is a great start. 1.75 is the current most popular size for filament but originally 3mm (nominally 2.8mm) was the most popular, and I believe ultimaker still prefers it so that's probably why Cura defaults to it. Having that set at 2.8 instead of 1.75 (or whatever your filament actually measures with some calipers) would definitely cause the underextrusion you were experiencing.

That test print is very complex so could be a very long print despite being small. The slicing software probably specifies some very slow moves on the overhangs and some of the other elements. Make magazine has published a bunch of test prints they use when evaluating printers - one thing I really like about them is each print is designed to focus on one or two things instead of doing it all in one big print. So you can just reprint the ones that you're trying to improve as you go. They're on thingiverse and fairly quick prints: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:533472

It looks like you're possibly having some overextrusion now, but hard to say for sure. It looks like you're getting a lot of ooze which is not uncommon with bowden extruders (Due to the filament acting like a spring in the tube) but can be tuned with your retraction settings. Ultimachine uses bowden extruders as well so your settings are probably close...but I bet if you dial in a bit more retraction it will clear up a good bit of the defects you're seeing.
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#31
That's encouraging Jason. I'm doing a print right now. Another Benchy. I did the Shamrock running the .stl through both the Cura 14.12 and the newer 3.0.4 with no discernible difference by my highly untrained eye. I'm very curious about this Benchy print. Cura says it'll be a 37min. print which would be less than half the time of all my prior Benchy's. This will be my 4th. I think I'll start giving these away. I should check if they float in the tub.

I'm getting eager to print some actual things to be used. I would also like to see some prints with moving parts but I don't think I'm ready yet until I can get a more uniformly smooth print.

I figured now is as good a time as any to switch over as long as I wasn't losing any ground in the process.

Thanks for the info on slicers. I really appreciate how you round out my knowledge on pretty much everything you post on.

Listening to the sounds of the printer it sometimes sings like a canary and sometimes honks like a goose. Are the sounds significant?
 
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ComikzInk

Soft and Foofy
#32
Good to hear all is going well so far Jim :)

I did the Shamrock running the .stl through both the Cura 14.12 and the newer 3.0.4 with no discernible difference by my highly untrained eye.
Shell wise you won't see much change :( it's when things get a little complex like bridging and overhangs will the differences show up. The newer versions will have more advanced features but if left stock I too noticed little difference at least when looking at layer view and browsing the print structure. Infill on the newer editions is way more advanced and dynamic for instance the infill can increase and decrease the steeper the shell angle. Lots more control and settings to fiddle with but I have noticed the newer versions do take a lot longer to render and slice a file.


Cura says it'll be a 37min. print which would be less than half the time of all my prior Benchy's. This will be my 4th. I think I'll start giving these away. I should check if they float in the tub.
Cura doesn't take into account acceleration and some versions get the time astronomically wrong. The CR10 comes stock with much slower acceleration settings so you'll find that there is less artifacting and higher accuracy in prints but at the cost of taking almost twice as long as some other printers. I found this out the hard way several times especially last night by setting off a 9 hour print and it instead took 17 hours!!! D: This was over USB mind you, if you use an SD card then the CR10 should give you a better estimate on its display.


Listening to the sounds of the printer it sometimes sings like a canary and sometimes honks like a goose. Are the sounds significant?
It can be a bit noisy, Some of the sounds can be solved by using stepper motor dampeners (I see these recomended quite a bit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073FRZTDX/). These help eliminate the sounds as it keeps the vibrations within the stepper and not transfer it to the entire printer chassis. If you want to eliminate sound transfer to the work surface then you can prints stands that allow for rubber balls to sit under like "jhitesma" recommended back on page 2 which I have or at least something similar. The printer will wobble sometimes but that is wobble not being transferred to the surface it's on. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2404307


I should have shared this first off but I completely glossed over it, Simplify3D made a troubleshooting guide for print quality issues that I would recommend giving a good read. It goes over almost all the types of print artifacting and print failures. They'll offer a brief reason for why it happens with pictures so you can identify what type of issue you have then what steps you can take to solve the issue in which most are just setting and calibration tweaking. As the CR10 is pretty well calibrated out of the box some won't apply but it's a good read anyway https://www.simplify3d.com/support/print-quality-troubleshooting/
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#33
I have made progress and have much much to share.

The step from Cura 14.12 to Cura 3.0.4 is HUGE! I ran the Benchy .stl through Cura 3.0.4 and the improvements were dramatic.
Screen Shot 2017-12-03 at 1.18.01 PM.png Screen Shot 2017-12-03 at 1.18.12 PM.png
It's harder to tell in the photo but the little hairs in the archway are almost completely gone and the roughness along the bow at the waterline is not there at all. More detail is visible. All this and it printed in under and hour. I'm now doing another print of Benchy but bigger along with a couple of other prints at the same time. Time to kick this up a notch and get some with moving parts.

I revisited the other test print and did yet another one to see what I'd see.
Screen Shot 2017-12-03 at 1.28.33 PM.png Screen Shot 2017-12-03 at 1.28.50 PM.png
Again, dramatic results compared to what I was getting before. The funny thing is I barely put in any parameters into Cura 3.0.4 for any of these. I'm supposing it went with the typical parameters based on the given CR-10 input I did give and the result is what we see. And all of these with a dramatic drop in print time, close to half the time.

Jason, regarding layer height I see a slider bar that steps 0.06 - 0.2 - 0.15 - 0.2 - 0.4 - 0.6 with an idication below it that seems to indicate an effect on print speed. I don't understand why there are two "0.2".

I still haven't done any fine tuning as the progress I'm making is pushing me in other directions, printing useful things. I already have a request for me to print something!

Lia, eventually I might do something about the fan noise. When it goes in the basement I might not care. My last comment was about the more musical tones of the motors. Thanks for the links. I looked at the wobble thing and agree I don't see that being a big issue for now. I've got bigger things going on.

Thanks everyone for the tips, links, and encouragement. I'm feeling fairly satisfied at this point thinking this has now become a usable tool. I certainly have much more to learn but this has been an imprtant milestone.:cool:
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#35
Aw shucks, twernt nuthin. Actually, I think it really wasn't much me at all. I'm guessing if I had started off with the latest Cura version I wouldn't have had all the issues. But then I also would have missed out on all the learning via y'all.



Urgent Update
Ahhh! It doesn't matter how slow the filament seems to go, eventually it does indeed run out!:mad:

So here I am getting ready and actually ordering some spools from different places to check out different brands and types when my son (the one who bought me the printer) pops up on FaceTime saying he already ordered my like 5 more spools. One of them is Hatchbox black PLA which was one I was going to order anyway. Needless to say I only got one order out before the chat and so I've got about 6 spools on the way.

It might be for the best this time without printing. It's kinda addictive.:(

I hope it comes in the mail tomorrow.:rolleyes:
 
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JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
#36
Phew! Just a few days of restlessness and now I can print again.:cool:
IMG_1820.JPG
Guess how many filaments I got in the mail today.
IMG_1821.JPG
Just to see if I could.


Screen Shot 2017-12-06 at 11.11.46 PM.png
I saw online that filament should be kept clean and dry so I found in the basement an 18qt Rubbermaid tub that will hold 4x1kg spools. Now whenever I get a dessicant packet I have a place to toss it.
 
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#37
Ordered a Hictop CR-10 from Amazon during a black Friday flash sale and it's been great. Only $370 on sale so I felt slightly justified in spending an extra $60 on the dual Z-axis kit.

Just got it dialed in this week and I've been printing the 3DLabPrint Qtrainer. The print quality is insanely good for a machine in this price range.

P_20171214_114216_HDR.jpg
 
#38
Thoughts/guidance for success is welcome. I will certainly be sharing from my end as a 3D newborn. And I will try to organize posts and information to minimize the necessity to dig through information to find current solutions.
Wish I had something to offer, Jim, but I've never even seen one of those in person. I'll watch this thread, see what you come up with. The idea of 3D printing is fascinating.