Cutting foam sheets... with a needle!

[dkj4linux]

So....
I've been mulling over this concept for quite some time, Monitoring both V1-engineering forum and here. I've finally decided to jump in head first, and build a machine. Dave, thanks for answering my questions in the past. Although I feel more at home in the FT forum, I know V1 forum is also full of helpful people as well. I'm going to apologize in advance, for my question, as I feel as much time as I have spent in the forums I should know the answers already, and yet I'm only looking for confirmation that I'm on the right track, and I didn't want to make a bad name for myself in the V1 Engineering forum.

My needs are building a "foam ripper", to be able to handle 20x30 sheets. And yet I'm seeing value (from the forums) at not building the first machine this large to handle this right out of the gate. I would like to some day be milling material (wood, MDPE, others). Dual end stops seem to be highly recommended, but not for the beginner. So I wanted to make sure I had the parts, and capability, but don't plan on this being used on the initial build. Although with my anal tendencies, would like SS rails, I believe I'm starting with conduit. So currently my shopping cart appears like this:

MPCNC Printed Parts - 23.5mm -Burly
Mount_Option: Dewalt DW660 Mount
Mount_Nut_Size: #6-32

GT2 6mm Belt GT2 6mm Belt

Mostly Printed CNC Parts Bundle - 6A / RAMBo Dual Firmware & Wire kit Mostly Printed CNC Parts Bundle
6A / RAMBo Dual Firmware & Wire kit

I have everything needed (except conduit, and maybe some nuts and bolts) as long as I have a way to have a friend print out some of the missing pieces on a 3D printer, correct? Or is it desired to add the LCD screen, to print from SD, instead of host computer?

Sorry to ask this here, I know the V1 forum is probably the more accurate place. Again, just feel more at home here.

Steve,

As I said in my previous post I think it important you identify the primary purpose of the machine you want to build... and then build it for that purpose.

A few posts back, I dismantled a 4' x 3' MPCNC I built early on (and was using when I started this thread...) for needle-cutting planes. It worked great but was really suitable for only light loads... needle-cutting, pen-plotting, laser, etc. Three and a half years later, I am using my version of a LowRider-inspired machine, Moebeast's Foam Ripper, for needle-cutting planes... and I think it's far better and easier to use for that task than the MPCNC I started with. Nothing at all against the MPCNC... the Foam Ripper just didn't exist back then. The Foam Ripper is less expensive, uses fewer parts, uses common conduit, and is simpler to build than MPCNC... and is actually semi-portable and less intrusive to precious shop space.

The MPCNC, especially the Burly version, is more versatile and strong enough to carry the Dewalt around for light-milling tasks. You really can't go wrong building it for that... but I'd recommend sticking with a small foot-print rather than one large enough for needle-cutting 20" x 30" foam sheets. It'd do the needle-cutting just fine... but wouldn't be as suitable for the milling you eventually want to do.

So, I'd build one or the other, depending on what you want to do first... foam-cutting or milling. And, then plan on building a second machine in the future for the other task. If you have sufficient space for both machines, you'll never regret building both. Building these machines is a great fun and educational experience and, in learning to use the first machine, you will identify things you'd like to see in a future machine... that you'll now be better prepared than ever to build.

Be careful... it's addictive.

-- David

 

[Keno]

Steve,

As I said in my previous post I think it important you identify the primary purpose of the machine you want to build... and then build it for that purpose.

A few posts back, I dismantled a 4' x 3' MPCNC I built early on (and was using when I started this thread...) for needle-cutting planes. It worked great but was really suitable for only light loads... needle-cutting, pen-plotting, laser, etc. Three and a half years later, I am using my version of a LowRider-inspired machine, Moebeast's Foam Ripper, for needle-cutting planes... and I think it's far better and easier to use for that task than the MPCNC I started with. Nothing at all against the MPCNC... the Foam Ripper just didn't exist back then. The Foam Ripper is less expensive, uses fewer parts, uses common conduit, and is simpler to build than MPCNC... and is actually semi-portable and less intrusive to precious shop space.

The MPCNC, especially the Burly version, is more versatile and strong enough to carry the Dewalt around for light-milling tasks. You really can't go wrong building it for that... but I'd recommend sticking with a small foot-print rather than one large enough for needle-cutting 20" x 30" foam sheets. It'd do the needle-cutting just fine... but wouldn't be as suitable for the milling you eventually want to do.

So, I'd build one or the other, depending on what you want to do first... foam-cutting or milling. And, then plan on building a second machine in the future for the other task. If you have sufficient space for both machines, you'll never regret building both. Building these machines is a great fun and educational experience and, in learning to use the first machine, you will identify things you'd like to see in a future machine... that you'll now be better prepared than ever to build.

Be careful... it's addictive.

-- David

Leaning is a gift. Learned something today I applied 12VDC to a 5VDC input controller, (poof), back to Amazon buy new parts. Happy building
Thanks for your posts
Ken

 

[Pony1023]

Dave and Ken, Thanks for the input.

I believe there's a few concepts that either I'm missing, not expressing correctly, or are getting lost in translation.

1. Where can the 3D printed parts be purchased for the "Foam Ripper"? Without a 3D printer in my house, I'm seeing this as a hurdle. I can burden friends, but it would appear that most companies can't "make money" from things posted on thingiverse. Or am I not being successful in finding where Mark is selling the printed parts? I don't believe there is a company in my area who will print things for me, however I also haven't explored this either. Also if I do it per Mark's specification, I don't have a great way to do the side plates, out of anything other than wood. Or an I missing something?
2. It would appear that nobody has built the foam ripper without having knowledge of 3D printing, or already having some experience building a MPCNC. Is the foam ripper truly a beginner project?
3. It would appear that the "foam ripper" is not currently in "kit" form. I'm the type of person who believe's a kit is good for the initial, and then lessons are learned, and then buying the pieces and working out the kinks is great for the second machine, version or modifications. Is this not the case here? I would love to tap into everyone's learning and lesson's learned, and take shortcuts to get where I want to be tomorrow, but the only way I could see shortening my learning curve was the MPCNC. I couldn't see how to do the "foam ripper" without a printer or CNC, but with more information, I'm starting to realize I'm missing something. A 20x20 milling MPCNC is not where I should start?
4. A thread both Dave and Ken, weighed in on, in May 2019 ("Anyone figured out how to print directly to DTFB yet? And don't mention another home brew CNC machine. Not what I'm asking for."), similar conversation was had, and although I don't agree with the poster, Dave you were recommending the "ripper", but the final post to the thread by kilroy07 was to start with the MPCNC. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's opinion, or disagree with a path chosen by anyone. I'm just trying to find one that works for me, and sometimes the information is contradictory. I'm just trying to get to the final answer. Is the MPCNC is not the best to start with, being the most developed and longest running? And in kit form?
5. I've leaned towards, and somewhat wanted to do the LR2 for some time. For the last two weeks, the LR2 bundle has been sold out, the flat parts are sold out, and I don't see printed parts in 23.5. Only 25mm for our EU friends, and 24.5 for 1" OD US. So it appeared as though the LR2 would not use conduit. I'm afraid I'm either missing something, or to stupid to comprehend, adding to the reason why I thought the MPCNC was the best starting point. What am I missing?

 

[CMS_1961]

David,

Take your time. Being the skilled engineer I know you are, you will have all this back up and running at your new place!! On a positive note it is always better being near/with family!! See you back on the forum when you are able.

Best of luck and relax, don't try to do this in a day.

Chalie

 

[dkj4linux]

Steve, it's not "all on you". I'm know now that I've misunderstood you, your background/capabilities, your expectations... and even what you really want to do with this first CNC machine. It's obvious you're analytical and well-read... but it seems you've missed the almost exclusively DIY nature and "there's not just one way" of doing most everything we do around here.

About "kits"... there really aren't any, in the traditional sense. The MPCNC comes about as close as anything to a "kit" but because there are so many different users, from all over the world, wanting to do so many different things with it, using different controllers/firmware/workflow, etc... there are so many options, that it's extremely difficult to give step-by-step instructions beyond physical assembly of the basic machine itself. So many decisions still need to be made regarding which machine is most suitable, it's working area/size, what tubing is available, and the end use(s) you envision for the machine you build.

So I'll repeat... you can't go wrong with the MPCNC. Do it. Even if for a larger format machine for needle-cutting 20" x 30" foam sheets. Just don't expect it to be the sturdiest and most capable milling machine as well. It's the closest thing to a beginner's first machine we have.

I didn't pick up on the 3d printed parts being so problematic for you. I will simply say this... of the dozen or so different machines I currently have built up (laser, needle-cutter, Dewalt router, etc.), the 3d printer is BY FAR the most valuable and capable of them all. With that one little machine, I can build all the rest. The same cannot be said of any of the others. I strongly recommend you start looking at adding one to your "arsenal"... it is a "game-changer", especially if you want to do more of this type of work.

I brought up other machines because you indicated you want to cut foam sheets... and also mill wood and other materials. Separate machines are preferable IMO for these tasks... rather than one do-all machine. I apologize... I didn't realize your lack of DIY experience and access to a 3d printer.

Moebeast's Foam Ripper is indeed not a "kit"... it's a simply a machine design put out on Thingiverse for DIY'ers. It provides guidelines and a few parts/drawings for building a similar machine... and is made far simpler if you have a 3dprinter and a way to fairly accurately drill holes and fashion the endplates. But I (and others) found it also requires a few bushings/spacers and workarounds to actually build it. I don't recommend the Foam Ripper for your first machine... stick with the MPCNC.

So, by all means, build the MPCNC. It's incredibly well-supported and lots of folks, of all experience levels, have successfully built it and are now doing amazing things with it. As I shared with you... it is the machine I was using at the time I started this thread and it was a fine machine for my needle-cutting needs at the time. I only moved on when I found a machine I found easier to use and better suited to my needle-cutter needs. But that's just me... it's not for everybody.

Finally, please realize that when you hear "contradictory" advice given on these forums... recognize that there are always differing "schools of thought", offered up to people of widely-differing experience levels and background, and most often specific to a particular machine or problem that the person may be having. In my experience it is almost always better, as a beginner, to commit fully to a particular "recipe" rather than trying to "cherry pick" from a bunch of them.

-- David

 

[dkj4linux]

For those not aware, Tom Sanladerer, who is the DIY 3d-print/CNC guru out on Youtube, is live-streaming his MPCNC build. There have been a couple of installments already... and another due tomorrow sometime. Check it out if you are, or ever have, contemplated building a CNC machine...

-- David

 

[glambert10]

I have a question about sourcing the correct sized conduit. The conduit at my local box stores mic's out at .092, which is too thick to pass through the y-axis bearing assembly. Does anyone have a source for getting the right size conduit for the printed parts provided in the plans?

 

[dkj4linux]

I'm sure the .092 is a typo... In the US, 3/4" EMT from the box stores has a nominal OD of 0.925"... or 23.5mm. That is the proper conduit for building the Burly-C version of the MPCNC. EMT, for NORMAL use, is spec'd and sold by its ID... in this case, nominallly 3/4". -- David

 

[dkj4linux]

For those watching Tom Sanladerer's MPCNC build and his rather unsuccessful attempts to hurriedly plunge in and attempt some rather advanced operations ... please know that a properly built and adjusted MPCNC, as designed, is quite capable of cutting -- with some patience, finesse, and a bit more familiarity with the machine -- wood and aluminum.

For this build, however, Tom was IMHO far too impatient, impulsive, and heavy-handed to properly show what the MPCNC is capable of. A bit less hurry and a thorough going over, double-checking and adjusting all the belts, bearings, and hardware would/could have helped immensely. Instead he rather hurriedly assembled his large-ish machine, using a cheap Chinese spindle (whose rep is not particularly good) and untested, hurriedly-designed custom mount... all the while interacting with chat and doing fifteen other things, and then jumped into the deep end, into a pretty worst-case scenario for cutting materials. No pen-plotting, air-milling, no forum search for specific MPCNC-recommended feeds/speeds, etc… and IMHO little chance for success. He could have simply made a few lighter cuts, in more forgiving materials, and sneaked up on feed and speed settings that would have been more appropriate for his particular build... working into tougher use cases only as he tested and fixed the things prior. Inexplicably, however, he attempted a tough cut, aluminum, with a basically untested machine... with full knowledge that he hadn't even figured out the problems he'd seen trying to cut a softer material, pine. I like Tom and admire his knowledge and ability to juggle many tasks simultaneously… but, here, he seemed IMHO a bit careless and heavy-handed for a first-time MPCNC builder. Most MPCNC builders/users know how fun, versatile, and well-designed the machine is… and it’s a shame the rest of the world wasn’t able to see it as well from his efforts. — David

 

[Keno]

I'll stick with what I have learned on this forum and other site that offer quality info. Ah, a good learning curve keeps the mind active. I have researched many others ideas and designs and with that I now have a vision on what I want. But that vision can change as I continue to learn. Time to me is not important, we just keep at it until it works the way I want it too. I am presently reprinting the burly as the one I am presently using has to much slop. Also working on a needle cutter by using concepts that I find suitable to produce an acceptable end product. I have read needles generally last about 6 projects and it my goal to increase this to twenty. Success maybe, failure NO. Learning is gift.

 

[dkj4linux]

I'll stick with what I have learned on this forum and other site that offer quality info. Ah, a good learning curve keeps the mind active. I have researched many others ideas and designs and with that I now have a vision on what I want. But that vision can change as I continue to learn. Time to me is not important, we just keep at it until it works the way I want it too. I am presently reprinting the burly as the one I am presently using has to much slop. Also working on a needle cutter by using concepts that I find suitable to produce an acceptable end product. I have read needles generally last about 6 projects and it my goal to increase this to twenty. Success maybe, failure NO. Learning is gift.

Hopefully, we're students til we die...

 

[Headbang]

Steve, it's not "all on you". I'm know now that I've misunderstood you, your background/capabilities, your expectations... and even what you really want to do with this first CNC machine. It's obvious you're analytical and well-read... but it seems you've missed the almost exclusively DIY nature and "there's not just one way" of doing most everything we do around here.

About "kits"... there really aren't any, in the traditional sense. The MPCNC comes about as close as anything to a "kit" but because there are so many different users, from all over the world, wanting to do so many different things with it, using different controllers/firmware/workflow, etc... there are so many options, that it's extremely difficult to give step-by-step instructions beyond physical assembly of the basic machine itself. So many decisions still need to be made regarding which machine is most suitable, it's working area/size, what tubing is available, and the end use(s) you envision for the machine you build.

So I'll repeat... you can't go wrong with the MPCNC. Do it. Even if for a larger format machine for needle-cutting 20" x 30" foam sheets. Just don't expect it to be the sturdiest and most capable milling machine as well. It's the closest thing to a beginner's first machine we have.

I didn't pick up on the 3d printed parts being so problematic for you. I will simply say this... of the dozen or so different machines I currently have built up (laser, needle-cutter, Dewalt router, etc.), the 3d printer is BY FAR the most valuable and capable of them all. With that one little machine, I can build all the rest. The same cannot be said of any of the others. I strongly recommend you start looking at adding one to your "arsenal"... it is a "game-changer", especially if you want to do more of this type of work.

I brought up other machines because you indicated you want to cut foam sheets... and also mill wood and other materials. Separate machines are preferable IMO for these tasks... rather than one do-all machine. I apologize... I didn't realize your lack of DIY experience and access to a 3d printer.

Moebeast's Foam Ripper is indeed not a "kit"... it's a simply a machine design put out on Thingiverse for DIY'ers. It provides guidelines and a few parts/drawings for building a similar machine... and is made far simpler if you have a 3dprinter and a way to fairly accurately drill holes and fashion the endplates. But I (and others) found it also requires a few bushings/spacers and workarounds to actually build it. I don't recommend the Foam Ripper for your first machine... stick with the MPCNC.

So, by all means, build the MPCNC. It's incredibly well-supported and lots of folks, of all experience levels, have successfully built it and are now doing amazing things with it. As I shared with you... it is the machine I was using at the time I started this thread and it was a fine machine for my needle-cutting needs at the time. I only moved on when I found a machine I found easier to use and better suited to my needle-cutter needs. But that's just me... it's not for everybody.

Finally, please realize that when you hear "contradictory" advice given on these forums... recognize that there are always differing "schools of thought", offered up to people of widely-differing experience levels and background, and most often specific to a particular machine or problem that the person may be having. In my experience it is almost always better, as a beginner, to commit fully to a particular "recipe" rather than trying to "cherry pick" from a bunch of them.

-- David

I agree with everything's said here. I personally built my first mpcnc using parts printed by someone else. I got my prusa mk3 shortly after and can not understand how I lived without a 3d printer for so long. That said v1 engineering sells even the 3d printed parts needed. In my experience just order the bundle for the machine you want to build. For a foam ripper I would do the low rider next time.
Down side of an all in one is you spend time dialing it all in, including your bed. Then you change tools and you are back to square 1. So I just do not change tools, too lazy.

 

[Headbang]

Btw, cut over 150 sheets of fb now using my original clothes pin style crank mig tip needle cutter. Repacked the cotton twice, broken 1 needle, and just replaced the needle again with a spare I had made. Only reason I replaced it this time was old one was dull and I was in a hurry. It has been ridiculously reliable and almost maintenance free outside a drop of oil every 5 sheets (2-3hrs run time)

 

[Keno]

Btw, cut over 150 sheets of fb now using my original clothes pin style crank mig tip needle cutter. Repacked the cotton twice, broken 1 needle, and just replaced the needle again with a spare I had made. Only reason I replaced it this time was old one was dull and I was in a hurry. It has been ridiculously reliable and almost maintenance free outside a drop of oil every 5 sheets (2-3hrs run time)

Maybe you could guide me a bit here to your or others posts on this issue you speak. Thanks

 

[Headbang]

Maybe you could guide me a bit here to your or others posts on this issue you speak. Thanks

So way back when I did not have a 3d printer. So I went back in time a few years and found some of the original designs. All are referenced in this thread in one way or another. I took a motor, wound some 2mm rod around the shaft and bent it into a spring crank. Then mounted it on a plywood mount with a mig welding tip as a guide. For some reason my build works, and does not suffer the issues others had with it. Could be the 2mm rod, or could be the motors prop shaft that I wound around. Could be I picked the perfect distance between the motor and the base. I use .025 wire for the needle and a .030 mig tip, I have a plywood well above stuffed with a little cotton that I keep oiled lightly. I also wound and soldered some bare 14 guage copper wire around the mig tip to act as a heat sink.
Here is a ton of pics that might make more sense.

 

[Headbang]

Maybe you could guide me a bit here to your or others posts on this issue you speak. Thanks

Problems people had were worn cranks and broken needles. I run mine 7300-7600rpm. Cuts are 500mm/min

 

[Keno]

Thanks for the info. I see what you are doing. I also use the Mig tip for my project and the .025 piano wire. The cotton is interesting idea for lubrication. I am approaching the problem in another way with the needle cutter. We will have to see how if works and if it is does I will offer pixs., If it does not well ---. Like your heat sink idea. Failure is just part of a learning curve that can lead to success. There is only one thing that nobody can take away from you, that is LEANING, Thanks for your reply and pixs. Oh by the way I am waiting for the arrival of me new Pursha 3D printer it took three days to get to Seattle and its taking 4 days to travel just 200 miles for delivery.
Ken

 

[Headbang]

Thanks for the info. I see what you are doing. I also use the Mig tip for my project and the .025 piano wire. The cotton is interesting idea for lubrication. I am approaching the problem in another way with the needle cutter. We will have to see how if works and if it is does I will offer pixs., If it does not well ---. Like your heat sink idea. Failure is just part of a learning curve that can lead to success. There is only one thing that nobody can take away from you, that is LEANING, Thanks for your reply and pixs. Oh by the way I am waiting for the arrival of me new Pursha 3D printer it took three days to get to Seattle and its taking 4 days to travel just 200 miles for delivery.
Ken

You will not be disappointed. I have the mmu for it in a box, hesitant to install it as my mk3 has been working so good!

 

[dkj4linux]

Thank you, Headbang, for all the pictures and info. Simply amazing. It's so neat how you adapted to your "lack"... and came up with one of the sturdiest and more successful and productive needle cutters I've heard about. And using a design that most of us had written off. Fantastic stuff... and well done!

 

[jhitesma]

You will not be disappointed. I have the mmu for it in a box, hesitant to install it as my mk3 has been working so good!

I still kind of regret taking my MMU out of the box and installing it

I do seem to finally have it working mostly reliably. But my Mk3 went from being amazingly reliable to nothing but trouble when I added the MMU. After re-building the extruder again I finally had the printer with MMU working reliably:

But don't see myself using the MMU much. It's so wasteful - the purge block on this print weighed more than the print. And it turned a 2 hour print into a 8 hour print by switching it to 3 colors. And honestly I don't print things for "looks" I print for functionality. And the only prints I've found that need the MMU are just for looks. At least my daughter appreciates it

The main reason I wanted the MMU was for soluble supports - but supports on the Mk3 print so much better and are so much easier to remove than on my old printer I haven't felt the need for soluble yet. And soluble material is crazy expensive and needs to be stored in a drybox which is more pain/expense. And with the MMU not being super reliable for me I've been hesitant to risk the expense of soluble material.

And I had my printer setup with the lack enclosure which I loved but with the MMU it no longer fit. I just finished the new v2 lack enclosure but that was a solid week of printing and when I put the printer back in I managed to get one set of power wires swapped around. Thankfully it seems I didn't kill anything...but after the jostling and moving of getting into the enclosure the MMU is acting up again and working on it inside the enclosure is way more frustrating.

Oh - and the instructions on the v2 lack enclosure IMHO have you cut the PTFE tubes a bit too short. I cut them exactly as long as suggested but it puts a pretty severe bend on 2 or 3 of them which I suspect is a big part of why the MMU is acting up now. So I need to order more PTFE since it's kind of hard to make things longer once they've been cut