Cutting foam sheets... with a needle!

x33

Member
1)--- What feed speed did you run at?
2)--- Also do you have any paper covered foamboard for a little test.
I would like to see how it performs. I find breaking the paper is the hard part.

1) --> Hi, I'm using mm/sec for the feed (with this, I have more "feeling" for the speed...I hate this by beeing mutiplied by 60 ;))

The speed in "EstleCam" > http://www.estlcam.com/ < was set to 5mm/sec...and we reduced this on the mill to 80%.
I can not tell some real numbers for the revs at the needle...my optical tachometer got an empty battery :( ...but my estimation is around 5000 RPM (my 6000???)...I will find out and give you that number.

BTW ---> This prog (Estlcam) is very nice...you can have a try for 30 days without any limitation. (The webside is German language - but you can switch inside the prog to English).
The prog is not only generating GCodes ( in some variations)...you can also drive an interface for steppers directly.

2) --> Up until now, I did not make any real tests with "cardboard"...I did some cuts "freehand" (not with the mill), and they were looking not so bad....may be, I can test this with the CNC on Wednesday?!
Could be possible that the thin (0,5mm) needle is not strong enough for longer use...but I can change needle and guide very easy and do some tests with 0,8mm
I have some samples of cardboard (5mm...with 2 layers of white paper)... not knowing where this is comming from (company/maker). I got this from a photo shop..they use it for displaying pictures.

The tests with 6mm Depron and with 5 + 6mm EPP are showing good results too...

Greetings form cold Germany (-5°)...Joachim
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
First tests of new needle cutter...

Joachim... those are great looking cuts. You really seem to be getting your method and machine dialed in nicely.

Dave... those plaques look great. I also like the idea of "floating" your workpiece. My pieces so far I've really not worried with the appearance but the functionality... but I suspect I'll worry with it more as I do more cutting/engraving for my daughter.

I fired up my laser-cut needle cutter (LCNC?) today. I also did a little test of running with, and without, a cotton-wad oiler/stabilizer. I'm also powering the cutter using a 12 volt, 7 amp-hour lead-acid battery through a Charsoon AntiMatter 10A/250W charger unit that Jason reviewed -- and highly recommended -- recently. I'm using it as a power supply, set in Motor Drive mode, 7.4 volts output to the ESC...

Sorry 'bout the clutter...

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First runs, without oiler/stabilizer... servo tester set to full-speed, draws 0.76 amps, and 5.6 watts...

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I then wadded up some cotton and stuffed it into the ready-made "reservoir" at the top of the inflation needle guide... and drizzled machine oil down the needle to saturate the cotton and make it stay put in the reservoir...

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Re-ran the previous test... full-speed, current dropped to 0.68 amps, and 5.1 watts... a 10%, 0.5 watt improvement!

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I've also started paying attention to the "blurs"... not only for symmetry of needle flex but also to see how the needle loops are positioned on the "basket blur" of the crankpin at speed...

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I didn't get a check on the cutter rpm's for the "without oiler" test... the battery was dead in my tach. So, I ran to the nearby dollar store and picked up a 9v battery for the tach and then checked my cutter speed (with oiler). The cutter is turning about 8050 rpm full-speed at 7.4 volts, loaded with needle only... about right for a 1200 KV motor under that light load. The rpm will drop, of course, when it starts cutting foam but should stay well above 6000 rpm, which will guarantee I get 10 perforations/mm at 600 mm/min feed rate in DTFB.


All that remains is to sharpen the needle and go cut some foam :) -- David
 
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RAGII

Member
Let there be light!! (Laser light that is)

Got some free time to work on my laser setup. Managed to get the driver "tuned", made my connections, put my goggles on and fired it up. and it worked. Fine tuned the focus a little bit and played with the distance. (Just had it sitting on my workbench aiming at a piece of pine.) I noticed that when I got it to the "ideal" focal point it made a faint "buzzing" sound. Any of you experience that?

Also, there were times when I was watching the burn that my eyes sort of "hurt" and there was some discomfort. I do have a certified set of laser googles from J-Tech (the orange colored ones) rated for 405nm - 445nm so I should be good there. Am just wondering if it is a moment of bright light, or if I am endangering my eyesight.

Now since I am not as cool as most of you guys and do not own a 3D printer (yet), I am off to make up some sort of mounting for this and make some better wiring management so I can really start playing with it.

Rob
 

x33

Member
1)--- You really seem to be getting your method and machine dialed in nicely.

2)--- ...but should stay well above 6000 rpm, which will guarantee I get 10 perforations/mm at 600 mm/min feed rate in DTFB.

3)--- All that remains is to sharpen the needle and go cut some foam :) -- David

Hi David,

1)--> with this "prototype" working so precise, I hope I will finde the intentions to finish the "professional grade" cutter ;) :)

2) ---> 5000 to 6000 rpm is a good value...increasing the rev does not really increase the quality and you have to deal with more heat and needle/guide wear. Your idea with the oiler is great! In my case, the wooden blocks (placed closely to the metal guide) are lubricated with Molykote and doing this job. This works fine and I could not find any oil/grease on the cutted Depron.

3) --> I tested a real sharp needle (pinpoint, like pencill) and an extrem blunt one (flat...like the bigger ones for punching holes in metal sheets) ---> after cutting some longer rows in Depron, both needle tips are looking nearly the same ( a rounded tip, not sharp and not blunt)

After all, the needle with the sharp tips is working "nicer"

This is the tips after needling the small Shockflyer and some aditional test rows
needle.JPG
The pinpoint tip is gone...but it is still working fine

Joachim
 
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dkj4linux

Elite member
Hi David,

1)--> with this "prototype" working so precise, I hope I will finde the intentions to finish the "professional grade" cutter ;) :)

2) ---> 5000 to 6000 rpm is a good value...increasing the rev does not really increase the quality and you have to deal with more heat and needle/guide wear. Your idea with the oiler is great! In my case, the wooden blocks (placed closely to the metal guide) are lubricated with Molykote and doing this job. This works fine and I could not find any oil/grease on the cutted Depron.

3) --> I tested a real sharp needle (pinpoint, like pencill) and an extrem blunt one (flat...like the bigger ones for punching holes in metal sheets

Joachim

Joachim,

You're getting great results now... I'm sure you'll eventually get your new cutter set up to cut as nicely.

I've settled in on 6000 rpm (while cutting) as my optimal target cutter speed for DTFB. You are entirely correct, "..increasing the rev does not really increase the quality and you have to deal with more heat and needle/guide wear." I've been preaching that for a long time now but most folks, especially those who've tried to use it for production work, want it to be maintenance-free and yet go as fast as possible. I understand *why* they want that but that's asking an awful lot of such a simple mechanism :p

Scott Todd, on my RCGroups thread (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35049730&postcount=41), agrees... "After playing with settings, needles, guides some more, I am settling in a bit. As much as I want to go fast, it cuts best around 20 IPM [8.5 mm/s, 508 mm/min] and 6000rpm. If I crank both speed up to get the same cuts per inch, it just gets fuzzy(er) and isn't as clean. It doesn't seem to matter if the needle retracts all the way in to the sports inflator or not but it is important the inflator is about 1/8 [3mm] above the work surface. Any higher and the cut get fuzzy(er) and not as neat."

I was a bit surprised *how much* improvement the oiler made... having the constant display of power on the AntiMatter unit made it very apparent however, and put a "number", or stamp of validity (in my mind), on it. I may try laser-cutting some small leather/wood washers to use as an oiler... they may stay in place better than the cotton. Your lubed, wooden guide blocks seem to work well also... they remind me of the make-shift, oil-soaked, wooden guide blocks that I've used in the past on my bandsaw.

What are your conclusions about the "sharp vs blunt" needle tests you ran? I've personally never seen anything good come from using a blunt needle on foam... in my experience it just generates more debris and leaves a ragged cut.

UPDATE: I just saw your additional info in your previous post. Fantastic photo of the needle point... that Depron must really be abrasive. Are you using music-wire for your needle?

-- David
 
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x33

Member
1)--- ....want it to be maintenance-free and yet go as fast as possible. I understand *why* they want that but that's asking an awful lot of such a simple mechanism :p

2)--- ... that Depron must really be abrasive. Are you using music-wire for your needle?

1)--> everybody should be allowed to make his own mistakes :)...but...one has to learn from warnings and the own (may be bad) results....if not, the results will bad all the time!!!!

Even (and especially) in production it does not make great sense to do things a little faster...when you have to sort out the bad parts at the end.
I did not know the exact time... but cutting the parts for the small plane took round about 12-15 min...2 or 3min less will not make me a richer man :)
It is much more important to optimize the cutting passes when generating the GCode...I'm doing this by hand ('cause I'm smarter than the software ;) :)) This can really save time in not having "strange" movements on the mill!

2)--> This Depron (extruded polystyrene hardfoam) has a very hard surface and is "eating" blades of cutter knives...milling this stuff is a real "pain in the A**" ... the lifetime of the tools (even Tungsten Carbide) is limited and the depron is melting when drilling with high speed.

!!! For (only) my experience --> The needle cutter is much more faster and more precise than every milling process!!!
That's a real big advantage.

Going now to do some CAD-Work...Joachim

P.S.
@David
I like the Dinos very much...may be a great fun when made from Depron.
Can you please send me the plans (dxf)...or do you have a link for download?
 
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dkj4linux

Elite member
1)--> everybody should be allowed to make his own mistakes :)...but...one has to learn from warnings and the own (may be bad) results....if not, the results will bad all the time!!!!

Even (and especially) in production it does not make great sense to do things a little faster...when you have to sort out the bad parts at the end.
I did not know the exact time... but cutting the parts for the small plane took round about 12-15 min...2 or 3min less will not make me a richer man :)
It is much more important to optimize the cutting passes when generating the GCode...I'm doing this by hand ('cause I'm smarter than the software ;) :)) This can really save time in not having "strange" movements on the mill!

2)--> This Depron (extruded polystyrene hardfoam) has a very hard surface and is "eating" blades of cutter knives...milling this stuff is a real "pain in the A**" ... the lifetime of the tools (even Tungsten Carbide) is limited and the depron is melting when drilling with high speed.

!!! For (only) my experience --> The needle cutter is much more faster and more precise than every milling process!!!
That's a real big advantage.

Going now to do some CAD-Work...Joachim

P.S.
@David
I like the Dinos very much...may be a great fun when made from Depron.
Can you please send me the plans (dxf)...or do you have a link for download?

Joachim,

Here's where I got the dinosaur dxf's I showed the other day. Those were in 3mm cardboard...

https://discuss.inventables.com/t/dinosaur-and-other-animal-skeletons/12720

For fun and to see what the laser could do, I also scaled the triceratops for 0.5mm cereal box cardboard...

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I had to use tweezers to assemble the head... but that was enough to see that the fit and precision were quite good!

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And, two or three years ago, I found and NEEDLE-cut a stegosaurus from 3mm cardboard...

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and a t-rex from DTFB for my grandson... needle-cut with paper on and then peeled off for assembly...

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Those needle-cut dinos were laid out in SketchUp and I'm not sure where the dxf files are now. I'll see if I can locate them but that was several computers ago... ;)

-- David
 

x33

Member
Joachim,

Here's where I got the dinosaur dxf's I showed the other day. Those were in 3mm cardboard...
https://discuss.inventables.com/t/dinosaur-and-other-animal-skeletons/12720
For fun and to see what the laser could do, I also scaled the triceratops for 0.5mm cereal box cardboard...


:applause: Thanx for the link :D

You have to call the pest control --- to fight against the dino-invasion in your house :rolleyes::p:)

I hope, that the rowboat with my laser modul is on the long way to Germany :confused:
 

GremlinRC

FT_Nut
A Whole 'Nudder Experiment.

Cutting foam with a drill.

I was rooting in an old toolbox and came across a mini 12v hobby drill. I had pretty much discarded it because it has little torque and jams when drilling PCB's. (Which is why I bought it initially). I also remembered I had a few 1mm drills and wondered how it would fare against foamboard. So a bit of 3d printing later I came up with a holder and quickly discovered that I had made a bags of the design of the holder and it was way too thin (5mm). Anyway 'tis for these tribulations that Al Gore kindly invented zip ties (just before he invented the internet) and a few minutes later I was good to go.

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I mount the drill as far up as it would go leaving only about 10mm sticking out of the drill. This is to reduce flex and the chance of the drill breaking.

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So does it cut well. Yes, it does cut very well on curves and straight lines.

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I don't have a photo of the star shape but it wasn't great on the points of the star but otherwise the cut is clean and crisp.

Now I know what your thinking... did he shoot 5 or.... nah not that. Your thinking that the drill is going to gum up with melted foam in no time. ... and you'd probably be right although I havent done long enough tests to prove that, BUT I'm wondering if I put my air assist needle blowing right onto the drill would it keep it cool enough to stop any melt? I'll have to 'suck it and see'.

Cheers

Dave.
 

GremlinRC

FT_Nut
So I hooked up the air assist and let the drill run away for just under 20 minutes cutting holes and squares in scrap foamboard and there was absolutely no buildup on the drill.
 

x33

Member
So I hooked up the air assist and let the drill run away for just under 20 minutes cutting holes and squares in scrap foamboard and there was absolutely no buildup on the drill.

:black_eyed::D:applause::):confused::cool: You can also use a mixture of alcohol and water for cooling!...or better for drinking, when the liquid is an old IRISH WHISKEY! ...So if the drill will break oder or get clustered with some melted foam....you really will not care about it anymore..................................................
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
&quot;Honeycomb&quot; bed

May be that a honeycomb bed will help to cut through more easy??? Because you do not have to heat up the material underneath during the last cutting pass - only an idea
http://www.cutlasercut.com/resources/tips-and-advice/burn-heat-marks-and-how-we-prevent-them

I've cobbled together a cheap, easily-assembled/repaired/replaced honeycomb bed (a "trivet")... to test. Hopefully, should last a while before it needs attention... ;)

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Already in use making another trivet... :D

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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Looking at your spoil board there David I have to wonder if that poor laser has been given any rest at all since you got it :D

Experimenting with cutting hardboard tonight since I have some laying around. Just tried 5 passes at 150mm/s and 250 power...but no go. Bumping it up to 250 power and down to 100mm/s to see if that will get through. Surprised it's proving this hard to cut given that you got through 5mm ply with similar settings. I would have expected the hardboard (the kind of stuff that pegboard is made from just without the holes) would cut easier than ply. Well, we'll see how this next pass goes.
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
Looking at your spoil board there David I have to wonder if that poor laser has been given any rest at all since you got it :D

Experimenting with cutting hardboard tonight since I have some laying around. Just tried 5 passes at 150mm/s and 250 power...but no go. Bumping it up to 250 power and down to 100mm/s to see if that will get through. Surprised it's proving this hard to cut given that you got through 5mm ply with similar settings. I would have expected the hardboard (the kind of stuff that pegboard is made from just without the holes) would cut easier than ply. Well, we'll see how this next pass goes.

Hey, Jason!

The poor spoilboard has already gone the way of the dinosaurs and its replacement(s) are now multiplying...

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With these relatively low-power lasers, I just accept that full power is going to be required (there's not a discernable difference between 250 and 255 IMO) and then use scripts to either 1) for thin materials, draw multiple lines at progressively slower speed and a set power to find where they cut through or 2) for thicker materials, trace and retrace the same line multiple times at full power to determine how many passes will be required to eventually get through (you can play games with moving the focus around as well).

Heard anything from the Instructables contest folks? Congrats on being a finalist! :applause::applause::applause:

-- David
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Took longer than I expected to figure out cut settings for cardboard last night. I gave up on the hardboard, I only have so much of it and didn't seem to be doing much for cutting, even at full power and 5 100mm/min passes (I was typing mm/s last night but meant mm/min) I just can't seem to cut it :(

Even the cardboard proved more difficult to cut than I expected. I wound up going with 7 passes at 700mm/s full power and I'm still just barely getting through the bottom layer:
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It looks like a better cut than it is, that bottom layer is still holding on pretty well and sometimes I delaminate the cardboard from the corrugation popping pieces out.

Looks decent from the top, but with 7 passes the kerf is getting a bit big. I picked 700mm/s since that seemed to give the best quality vs. cut depth on single passes then just upped the passes to get through:
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On right right are single passes, the piece being cut is several passes in, you can see the kerf size discrepancy fairly well.
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And after cutting, 7 passes on the left, 1 pass on the right. That thing in the upper right...not sure what I did there...think I accidentally tried to retrace the cut paths instead of the original design, it was just burning little 1/8" long segments in random locations over and over :p
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I also did a test and found that 5 passes with a 6th pass at a lower height works just as well as 7 passes - but I can't make the jtech plugin run just one pass at a lower height...only all passes get a Z or none get a Z. I could hack the gcode manually...but that doesn't sound like much fun to me :D In fact I suspect 4 passes with a 5th lowered would work as well.

Surprised it's taking me this many passes to cut cardboard. If I go much slower then my line width gets much wider and the risk of burning seems to go up quickly even though I can get a better cut. I'm at the suggested 5.5v / 1.7a on the driver and using the G2 lens which is supposed to be more efficient. I wonder if the slightly larger spot size of the G2 is hurting me. Tempted to pickup a 3 element lens to compare...

Maybe this girl scout cookie crate cardboard is just hard to cut...seemed like the other cardboard I tried back at the end of last year was cutting a lot easier. Will have to go back and see what settings I used them...think it may have been more like 100mm/min on that which was why I also had issues with parts burning :D

Oh well, at least now I have something to do with all the cardboard from these cookie crates. My daugher is determined to try and sell 800 boxes this year to earn herself a trip to Disneyland...I want to encourage her...but don't think she can pull that one off. Last year she sold about 150 boxes. But first 4 days of sales this year and she's already nearing 75 boxes so maybe she will pull it off if she can keep this momentum up...I better start saving for a hotel and rental car just in case :D

No word from Instructables yet...the rules said judging should have happened Monday and winners announced yesterday. But I'm guessing they forgot about the holiday, so fingers crossed I hear something today ;)
 
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dkj4linux

Elite member
And finally...

It must be the phase of the moon, or somesuch, that with absolutely no pre-planning at all... the base of my laser MPCNC is 3x3 "trivets" and they comfortably fit to make for a solid "honeycomb" bed...

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These particular craft sticks are 150mm x 18mm x 1.5mm and 14 will make up a complete trivet. I feed it one stick at a time and each stick takes 1-2 minutes to slot... to allow time to assemble (with only a little persuasion) while cutting...

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So, there you have it. I can already tell that the backside of the material is much cleaner without that old ratty spoilboard in too close proximity to the material.

Thanks a bunch, Joachim, for the suggestion! -- David
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
Whoa! 7 passes?

Jason,

What is the thickness of your cardboard? I'm cutting 3mm cardboard (actually the boxes DTFB comes in) in just one pass... full-power (255) at 100 mm/min and getting clean through-cuts. I am careful to focus on top of the material (I routinely do that now for any material thickness) for thinnest kerf and the cardboard cuts very cleanly... no charring, flareups, etc. The full patterns for those 3mm dinos takes an hour or more... so it isn't quick, but it is clean. If you are cutting heavier, thicker cardboard I'm sure it'll take a slower feed than 100 mm/min and/or maybe a couple of passes... but 7 passes seems "overkill" to me.

Now... about multiple passes. I'm a bit confused still when I cut thicker materials. Though it makes sense to lower the focus into the material with each pass... I for some unknown (to me) reason get best results simply leaving the focus at the top of the material. That near-5mm plywood (4.75mm actual) I cut with 5 passes, full-power, and focus at top of material for all 5 passes. I've tried lowering focus with each pass, and setting focus to mid-material, etc... but I always seem to keep coming back to keeping focus on top of the material. Anybody got any clues as to why I get best cuts that way?

-- David
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
The girl scout boxes are a little thicker, it's about 3.8mm. I scaled the dino by 150% and it's just about right - though being scaled a tiny bit less may be better since the pieces start getting loose fairly quickly even though they slot together great at first.

I think my initial cardboard cuts were in the 100mm/min range - but that was when I had some parts catch fire and burn well past the cut.

Both last nights 7 passes and that original 1 pass were with the laser focused on the top. Though my test last night with multiple passes on top then one pass lower did seem promising. Since I was able to get a cut as nice as my 7 pass cut with just 6 passes by lowering the last pass. Tonight I may try doing 3 or 4 passes with a smaller drop between each one to see how that does. I'll also give the old 100mm/min a go on the GS boxes...maybe they'll handle it better.

Just seems like it's taking me a lot more effort than it should to cut. I've got considerably less time on my diode than you do I suspect but I do have that G2 lens...except that's supposed to be 30% more efficient so I should be cutting easier I'd think. I'm tempted to turn up the current a tiny bit more...maybe my volt meter reads a bit low and I erred on the low side for caution so maybe I'm not quite at 1.7a like I thought I was...

I also haven't rigged up air assist yet, but that's not going to happen super soon as I either need to save up for a quiet indoor compressor or drill holes and add a pass-through manifold in the wall of my shop so I can run the compressor outside and still have air inside.
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
The girl scout boxes are a little thicker, it's about 3.8mm. I scaled the dino by 150% and it's just about right - though being scaled a tiny bit less may be better since the pieces start getting loose fairly quickly even though they slot together great at first.

I think my initial cardboard cuts were in the 100mm/min range - but that was when I had some parts catch fire and burn well past the cut.

Both last nights 7 passes and that original 1 pass were with the laser focused on the top. Though my test last night with multiple passes on top then one pass lower did seem promising. Since I was able to get a cut as nice as my 7 pass cut with just 6 passes by lowering the last pass. Tonight I may try doing 3 or 4 passes with a smaller drop between each one to see how that does. I'll also give the old 100mm/min a go on the GS boxes...maybe they'll handle it better.

Just seems like it's taking me a lot more effort than it should to cut. I've got considerably less time on my diode than you do I suspect but I do have that G2 lens...except that's supposed to be 30% more efficient so I should be cutting easier I'd think. I'm tempted to turn up the current a tiny bit more...maybe my volt meter reads a bit low and I erred on the low side for caution so maybe I'm not quite at 1.7a like I thought I was...

I also haven't rigged up air assist yet, but that's not going to happen super soon as I either need to save up for a quiet indoor compressor or drill holes and add a pass-through manifold in the wall of my shop so I can run the compressor outside and still have air inside.

Alright! Here's my cleanest cut in 4.75mm plywood yet... using my new "honeycomb" bed and air-assist. I reran a cutfile for just the bottom plate (with relocated/resized needle guide hole) of my latest needle cutter... 5 passes, full-power, 100 mm/min, constant focus on top of material.

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Hole fell through on 4th pass...

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Nice clean, narrow kerf... air-assist and focus on top keeps it that way... divot mark on bottom/left corner is where I reset the Arduino for 0,0... I usually lay a piece of scrap there when I set zero and don't want a mark.

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Bottom completely and cleanly cut... no staining, charring, etc. except where it crossed a bed wall. Also compare to previous, neighboring cuts... on old plywood spoilboard. Thanks again, Joachim!

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Part popped out cleanly with little effort...

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Edge shows little charring except toward top surface, which had to withstand all 5 passes...

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-- David
 

dkj4linux

Elite member
Must be my lucky day!

Daughter just walked in... with a new cardboard box!

Actually she insisted on getting me a new coffee pot while she was at the store. She cringed every time she looked at my old leaky pot... in spite of my insistence that it made great coffee!

The silver lining... I see some 2mm dinos in my future... :rolleyes:

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