Faa proposed Transponder rules and how/if they change what we do as hobbyists

[Vimana89]

I say we make Nutballs shaped like butts with fart sound emitters and buzz Washington with them until they see these proposed laws from our perspective.... The whole stunt would have just as much class and maturity as what they are trying to do to our hobby...on a serious note, I really am pretty outraged. I have no idea how to start doing anything productive about this except carry on flying, so I'll be watching to see how others address this problem.

 

[PsyBorg]

Not so sure on this...

The FAA is threatening all sorts of horrors but Timbs v. Indiana shows how a guy convicted for selling heroine got his truck returned because Indiana violated the 8th amendment by taking his $40k truck.
17-1091 Timbs v. Indiana PDF

Is that over regulation and over reach or that property forfeiture crap where they can claim your stuff after the commission of a crime. That to me is a separate but equally crappy way to do things. Penalties can be the same.. lose your stuff of any value or have heavy fines levied against you.

It all boils down to our government has become what we swore to defend against. On that I am sure we agree.

 

[cranialrectosis]

Timbs v. Indiana was where the state of Indiana claimed in federal court that the US Constitution had no power or authority over the laws of the state of Indiana and that the state could impose any fee or fine it so chose.

SCOTUS disagreed.

"The vehicle’s forfeiture, the court determined, would be grossly disproportionate to the gravity of Timbs’s offense, and therefore unconstitutional under the Eighth Amendment’s Excessive Fines Clause. The Court of Appeals of Indiana affirmed, but the Indiana Supreme Court reversed, holding that the Excessive Fines Clause constrains only federal action and is inapplicable to state impositions.

Held: The Eighth Amendment’s Excessive Fines Clause is an incorporated protection applicable to the States under the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause. "-SupremeCourt.gov

I wonder what will happen if the FAA tries to hit someone with $30k in fines for flying a $300 copter in their yard considering that selling $10 worth of HEROINE is not worth a $40k truck.

 

[Merv]

I no longer believe the video that I referenced earlier in this thread is accurate. I believe the FAA changed the rules after that video was posted in November 2019. At this point what Josh Bixler said about the phone app is a pipe dream.

I encourage you to watch Bruce Simpson video from Xjet and support his efforts regarding the FAA.

 

[IanSR]

Nothing to prevent you.. but the penalties if they catch you can be life changing.

I asked this in Bardwells live stream but it got missed, what is the procedure with FAA fines? What happens if you don't pay them?

Here in the UK if you get fined for breaking the law, the fine is very often proportionate to your income level, and the way you pay it back is pro-rata to your income too, so for example if you got fined £2500 for not displaying your operator I'd, but were unemployed, the court would likely let you pay back that fine at £1 a week, it wouldn't be a case of "pay £2500 now or go directly to jail" - the only point you'd be in risk of going to jail is if you flat out refused to pay the fine.

Just curious, I've heard of some big fines being dished out in the USA, but nobody ever clarified how those fines were collected, or over what period (as you'd kind of expect).

 

[Vimana89]

This is slightly verging on off topic and pretty ranty, but what I hate most about this besides the fact it could screw my new found hobby, is it's part of a larger pattern I see where spontaneity, creativity, and genuine socialization, learning, and exploration are being stepped on. What it adds up to is a system that kind of funnels people into this gridlock cycle of work/home/virtual entertainment/consumerism with little to no room for self-actualization or other life priorities. Now one example is how every store gives you discounts for messing around with apps and reviews and whatnot before and after shopping at the store, adding more time and complication to the process and keeping you busier and more engaged in the trivial everyday grind rather than making the process quicker or more convenient. It's like you step out into the world and you can hardly go anywhere or do anything, because it's all owned by boring, cynical selfish people for boring, cynical purposes. It's like everyone is out there walking around like a zombie, bouncing off each other and never really connecting, because they are all locked into their own little grids and cycles of repetitive nothing serving faceless institutions that demand everything and "owe you nothing".

So what do you do if you want to find something other than that? You find hobbies and communities that share your interests. That's what I did, and it's been quite a positive experience so far. Can't I just at least have this? These people need to be foiled and thwarted somehow, before they foil and thwart everything that can possibly bring joy.

 

[PsyBorg]

@IanSR How hard they whack you depends on a few things here. How stupid was the thing you got busted for. Were you a dink and resisted or disrespected the officer that got you. How combative you were during the whole process. All that gets reported to the judge who adds a tick to every bad thing you did. Some judges are lenient and sensitive to the circumstances others are a strictly money making machine.

Most likely if you were not a dink when you got nailed you get an appearance ticket as these are not criminal but civil rules / laws. Its the resisting part that gets you arraigned with a quickness and smacked with criminal charges.

The fines I believe can be paid by several means. Cash is always good in their eyes as they divvy it up at the evenings card games (kidding guys relax yer puckering strings) Cash, check or bond. Depending how much you have on hand is how they give leeway to payment structure. Your stature in society unless you are super rich is never taken into account when imposing the fines.

 

[Stonewall]

@IanSR


America's criminal justice system is backed by for-profit prisons, so that should answer your question. The system is deliberately leveraged against the low/middle class, and is almost a joke if you have no worries about money. You can and will go to jail for unpaid court fines. It's kind of becoming more of a recent movement here in Murica as more and more people realize just how screwed the system is. Problem is people usually have their heads in the clouds until something finally directly involves them. I.E.- "Cops are wonderful, they're just trying to protect us," is a tune people sing until SWAT busts down your door one evening and shoots your dog and points a rifle at your kid because you had one too many visitors last month and someone somewhere thought you might be a drug house or some cop beats you half to death during a traffic stop because he had a bad day. Most people don't realize the depth of how corrupt the criminal justice system is unless they purposefully go digging for information to keep themselves aware, are involved in or around it for your work, or for whatever reason you end up being prosecuted. Can't make bail? Can't pay a fine? Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to jail.

 

[PsyBorg]

I have called it the "Just Us" system for decades after dealing with workmans comp and then again with family court when I couldnt pay the extortion at the levels they wanted.

 

[sprzout]

So, here's what I've determined in a short skimming:

The hobby is dead.

Amazon, FedEx, et al, will be cluttering the skies with hundreds of thousands of drones for delivery of small, under 55 lb. items. Never mind that said items will have to be delivered from an area no more than 5 mi. away because the lipo batteries available will not allow said drones to deliver them any further than that, and recharging them is going to be a logistics nightmare.

Get off my lawn.

Government is evil.

Transponders will be required, smartphones will be required, blood type and a patch on your clothes will be required to identify you.

It's all the drone guys' fault.

My plane isn't a drone, I don't care what the FAA says!

And lastly...

It's all proposed, we don't know a lot of specifics, a lot of things are very loose on definition, there's a lot of guessing going on (both on the side of the public and on the side of the government), there's a heck of a lot of panicking going on, and we don't know how they plan to even enforce it. I mean, we're all supposed to have our FAA registration numbers affixed externally on our "drones", but I can GUARANTEE you that there are some people on this forum that don't have it on all of their planes. Nobody's going to have you fined or arrested unless a report is made and someone tries to track you down and verify...

So, yes - some of my comments were made very "tongue in cheek". I went overboard with some of it, simply because I was trying to be funny, but also to defuse the panic a little. I think a lot of us are WAY too worried about what this spells, and how it's going to ruin everything, but on the flip side, how many of us are following everything to the letter? Or are even interpreting it all the same way? Fly and enjoy it, or panic and worry and don't enjoy yourself every time you throw something up in the air - I think we're all too doom and gloom over this whole thing to enjoy the hobby anymore and we've invested too much panic on social media for a government that is ultimately going to do whatever they want to do, whether it is in our best interest, or in theirs.

If you are upset, as I mentioned a while back, post comments on the proposed ruling. The AMA has sent out an email today asking us all to make comments - I just propose that we all make insightful, well-thought comments and not the "because 'Murica" or the angry "get off my lawn/I hate the government/it's a capitalist conspiracy, man!" comments; say something so that people want to take you seriously.

 

[Vimana89]

5 years later, flip on Discovery and the Firefly song is blasting as the intro for their newest series. From those who brought you Moonshiners... wait what's a catchy name for this new reality show we will all be on? "Outlaw Fliers"? "Sky Pirates"? 🤔🤔🤔

 

[PsyBorg]

Like I said.. Drone delivery will go over about as well as a fart in a space suit. You see the panic they generated with our toys in the general population and we are out in fields and our own back yards flying. Wait til the delivery drones start coming by in the numbers they need to get return on the investment. Cities and towns will ban them after a bajillion complaints fly at the mayors. They really did cut their own throats and if need be we can use that against them to get this crap rescinded for our hobby at least.

 

[Vimana89]

Like I said.. Drone delivery will go over about as well as a fart in a space suit. You see the panic they generated with our toys in the general population and we are out in fields and our own back yards flying. Wait til the delivery drones start coming by in the numbers they need to get return on the investment. Cities and towns will ban them after a bajillion complaints fly at the mayors. They really did cut their own throats and if need be we can use that against them to get this crap rescinded for our hobby at least.

You are right. When the average person sees what's it's really like to have these big,loud annoying delivery craft flying over heavily populated areas on a regular basis, they will want that stuff gone. They'll look back and see how they never had problems with foam park fliers and small privately owned multicopters, but then this comes along in the guise of safety and boom now there's more and bigger stuff in the sky that is actually a bother to their every day life.

 

[sprzout]

Like I said.. Drone delivery will go over about as well as a fart in a space suit. You see the panic they generated with our toys in the general population and we are out in fields and our own back yards flying. Wait til the delivery drones start coming by in the numbers they need to get return on the investment. Cities and towns will ban them after a bajillion complaints fly at the mayors. They really did cut their own throats and if need be we can use that against them to get this crap rescinded for our hobby at least.

Let's nip the delivery drone aspect in the bud now. It's never going to happen.

Think about it. A commercial delivery drone has to be under 55 lbs, all up weight. That includes the package it is delivering. 55 lbs. would require a LOT of batteries to lift, and therefore said item of delivery would have to be relatively light to keep it under that 55 lbs.

So, all up weight of 55 lbs, battery included - how far is this sucker gonna get? What is its range? Best I've seen from testing is 5 miles, which means a 10 mile round trip. So, logistically, that limits to a 5 mile radius of the warehouse. Either you limit the delivery via multicopter to that 5 mile radius, or you have a LOT of warehouses to fly out of, which is NOT cost effective.

And, that gets to another point - battery charge times. 3-5 minutes worth of flight on a good racing drone, right? 15-20 minutes on a more efficient multicopter...Ok. So you have the multicopter go out with ONE package, deliver it, then return home, and have to recharge before it can deliver another package. How long does a battery take to recharge SAFELY? 30-40 minutes? More? A delivery driver can make multiple deliveries in that time, AND carry more items in their truck.

It's not cost efficient.

Unless you can get the battery life to be a LOT better, AND a LOT lighter, AND be more efficient - well, it's not going to happen. Not in the near future.

 

[PsyBorg]

There are several different types of aircraft. some are big octos some are hybrid fixed wings with loiter capabilities.

There is one article on Fortune saying they want to put docking stations on telephone poles. UPS will be doing drone swarms of up to 25 of these things at once.

Most of the ones I saw have open props and they are saying the sensors will detect anyone within unsafe ranges and they are pushing motor stop as a safety feature..

I dont want this outcome and I surely dont want anyone hurt but I give it under two hours before the first law suit gets filed where someone got chopped up by an open prop. Yes humanity IS this stupid. Some will even do it on purpose for the big insta payout to keep quiet.
From what I have seen only one proposed craft is remotely viable and still VERY unsafe.

The funny thing is that every video shows that deliveries happen on the brightest most sunny days.. good luck with that..

Again.. fart in a space suit.

Oh and the guy that came in here about disposable drones dropping medical supplies and such.. they are doing it now .. look up Zipline on you tube. they make it look all sexy and clean in those videos as well.

 

[skymaster]

I have a pretty optimistic take on this. Lets say that I opt for the "full" ident option. This means that I have a yet-to-be-made-public transponder that broadcasts information about my model just like ADS-B. I've opted to pay for this "thing," whatever that may be. I am now in full compliance. Therefore, I am no longer restricted to an AMA field. If I do this, I should be able to fly beyond LOS and at any altitude I chose as long as I comply with the already in place requirements for a given airspace type. I'd be happy to take a test/demonstrate my proficiency if I have this freedom. If I chose not to pay for the "transponder," I can still benefit from the "limited" proposed category. I can fly wherever I chose as long as I identify my location using my phone and stay within the 400 ft rule. (There has been some interpretation of a 400 ft bubble around an rc pilot, but I think this "requirement," is simply poorly worded on the behalf of the FAA. Properly, it should be defined as flying within LOS and at an altitude of no greater than 400 ft.) If I choose not to utilize either the full or the limited option, then I fly at a "community based organization" field recognized by the FAA. Currently, that means I'm flying at an AMA field. But, the AMA doesn't have to be the only community based organization recognized by the FAA. We just need a new CBO.

So let me get this straight, so even if i go to a field that is open to the public i still have to identify myself via the phone. so what if you don't have a smartphone?

 

[tamuct01]

5 years later, flip on Discovery and the Firefly song is blasting as the intro for their newest series. From those who brought you Moonshiners... wait what's a catchy name for this new reality show we will all be on? "Outlaw Fliers"? "Sky Pirates"? 🤔🤔🤔

I'm going to put this on all my aircraft from now on. It's the Air Pirate logo from Talespin:

So let me get this straight, so even if i go to a field that is open to the public i still have to identify myself via the phone. so what if you don't have a smartphone?

I don't want people bothering me while I'm flying anyway. Sounds like a good excuse to leave any cell phone at home. "Sorry, officer, I don't have a cell phone. I'm from the 1980s!"

On the delivery front, the safety concerns are very real. I suspect that 2 mins after deploying a delivery fleet 50% are out of commission from people stealing any valuable part from them. If they load them up with GPS and 360 cameras to track the components you'll hear screaming from everyone about being spied upon. Much as several have said already, one DJI Phantom in the air and folks scream about surveillance. If you have a fleet of AMZN drones with 360 deg cameras I'm pretty sure that many more folks will shout "don't spy on me." I could be way off. We now have every doorbell and floodlight equipped with IP cameras...

 

[Stonewall]

@skymaster

See my post earlier in this thread. Plenty of people still don't use cellphones. Be it an age thing, a price thing, or a limit on service thing. I know quite a few who still don't have access to broadband and have no cell coverage, so they don't own cellphones; no reason to pay money for something that doesn't work, and you can only use for brief periods when going for a once in a while drive an hour down the road.

 

[nhk750]

The broadband isssue may be solved in a few years when they get all the satelights in orbit. Scary thing actually...no escape from technology. I have so many planes I could never comply with a transponder requirement and it would bankrupt me if I did... I figure I will just fly according to AMA saftey rules and hope for the best. When the SWAT team breaks my door down and takes me to prison I guess it will be my retirement...

 

[Hondo76251]

I'm going to put this on all my aircraft from now on. It's the Air Pirate logo from Talespin:

View attachment 153572

I love it!