<FAILED> I’m going to put ailerons on my UMX Radian (micro)

[cloudseeder]

I’m going to put ailerons on my UMX Radian (micro).

Here’s the deal: I want to connect a new servo and wires to control ailerons (servo arms counter rotating the wires). Wires will have to bend around at least a few pivots before reaching the horn. I will order new foam wing and cut ailerons and mount vertical horns on each flap (like the standard radian elevator horn). diagram shows my idea!!
what do you all think??

 

[Merv]

Great idea, you could also consider torque rods and moving the ailerons outward on the wings

 

[cloudseeder]

Great idea, you could also consider torque rods and moving the ailerons outward on the wings

yeah, I’ve improved the design considerably. I now have all the parts i need, almost. i’m going to mount the servo aft, behind the battery, and use small pulley-wheels to direct the servo wire directly from the servo to the aileron horns. so only one pivot per wing (at pulley), and no reason to expect any kinks in the wire from a stationary pivot point.

 

[cloudseeder]

the big question now is... Can i even attach my new servo to the UMX Radian’s receiver?? I got cable extenders, no problem there, but I have yet to open up the fuselage and look at the receiver itself. I just know it’s a 5 channel AS3X, and the only ports in use (that I know of) are Throttle, Rudder, Elevator.

p.s. here’s the new design with outward ailerons and dual pulleys

 

[bracesport]

@cloudseeder - I imagine you will have wire springs on the ailerons to counteract the pull wires?

Phil

 

[cloudseeder]

@cloudseeder - I imagine you will have wire springs on the ailerons to counteract the pull wires?

Phil

@bracesport - I’m not sure if I am properly defining (when I visualize), what you refer to as ‘wire springs on the ailerons’. I’m sure your language is correct, but being a beginner I don’t understand what you mean.
What I can say with certainty, is that I ordered a set of replacement elevator/rudder wires for my model, which I intend to use from servo to aileron horn. The elevator and rudder wires to have a ‘spring’-like object close to the control horns. I plan to include these with ailerons (simply because I don’t know their purpose and the default model used them for the elevators/rudders). Are these what you mean?

 

[FDS]

Your receiver will use Throttle, Rudder, Elevator, SAFE and the panic switch, making a total of 5 channels. It may not have a spare Aileron port for the servo.

 

[cloudseeder]

Your receiver will use Throttle, Rudder, Elevator, SAFE and the panic switch, making a total of 5 channels. It may not have a spare Aileron port for the servo.

@FDS I was under the impression that stabilization is an inherent feature with AS3X, though in better receivers it can be accompanied with SAFE or SAFE-select. The box for UMX Radian and it’s description on the website make no mention of SAFE, which is quite heavily emphasized for other [more expensive] models. The Radian’s manual also does not speak of SAFE, nor panic button... That said, I’m new to this entire field in general - so I don’t disregard what you said... but I would like to ask: are you sure? (or how could I check?). I haven’t yet opened the plane to study the anatomy of the receiver, but when I do, i’m not sure I will know what i’m looking at, to be honest.

 

[FDS]

The Radian may not have the panic switch. You will have to open it up and try a servo on the spare plug if there is one. It will be a 3 pin small white servo plug.
It should look a bit like this.

 

[The Hangar]

@FDS I was under the impression that stabilization is an inherent feature with AS3X, though in better receivers it can be accompanied with SAFE or SAFE-select. The box for UMX Radian and it’s description on the website make no mention of SAFE, which is quite heavily emphasized for other [more expensive] models. The Radian’s manual also does not speak of SAFE, nor panic button... That said, I’m new to this entire field in general - so I don’t disregard what you said... but I would like to ask: are you sure? (or how could I check?). I haven’t yet opened the plane to study the anatomy of the receiver, but when I do, i’m not sure I will know what i’m looking at, to be honest.

From my knowledge, the umx radian doesn’t have safe or panic. It does had as3x which to my limited knowledge of stabilizers is in the receiver. I’ve been interested in the umx radian, maybe as an fpv platform. Seems like a champ or sports cub s would be better for that...

 

[FDS]

That board pictured should be the AS3X one. The two linear actuator style servos on the board are the elevator and rudder, then the planes with 4 ch controls use the other two servo plugs for the ailerons.
I haven’t tried any of the other UMX planes, they are quite expensive here. I forgot they haven’t all got safe etc.

 

[cloudseeder]

From my knowledge, the umx radian doesn’t have safe or panic. It does had as3x which to my limited knowledge of stabilizers is in the receiver. I’ve been interested in the umx radian, maybe as an fpv platform. Seems like a champ or sports cub s would be better for that...

yeah, FPV will add some weight but the radian micro can already do 90 angles of attack at full throttle (for a limited time before stalling) flying for acrobatics. used with a 3.7V 45C 220mAh battery instead of included 25C 150mAh battery extended flight time from like 6-8 minutes to over 15 minutes - no throttle cut or pure gliding involved in that number. I think the micro radian could accommodate more weight (small FPVs) with reasonable flight time if you’re not going acrobatics and high AOAs. there is of course presumably a lot of additional drag with the Radians FPV mount configuration. I’d say that’s the roadblock, you’d have to find a relatively streamlined FPV that’s still lightweight, or devise an alternative mounting position to avoid the drag. the lightweight FPVs I’ve seen are mounted on square plates perpendicular to direction of travel... if you mount that on top of the plane... a lot of drag I figure.

 

[cloudseeder]

The Radian may not have the panic switch. You will have to open it up and try a servo on the spare plug if there is one. It will be a 3 pin small white servo plug.
It should look a bit like this.
View attachment 144537

YES! I see exactly that. problem is my 3g micro servo has a larger black connection that outsizes that radian’s. Sounds like I need a micro to ultra micro adapter, google easily found these everywhere for spektrum ultra micros.
So, thanks to your diagram @FDS it looks like I know how to proceeed, other than precise servo placement and COG balancing. I want to preserve original COG because I understand the Lift Moment relative to CoG can be important. It certainly determines the angle of the wing relative to fuselage, so it was factored into the design. i’m only beginning my studies into aircraft design and aerodynamics - and while my STEM background is strong as a chemist, my knowledge of physics is more at the quantumistic atom level (even smaller than the MICRO radian lol).

 

[cloudseeder]

That board pictured should be the AS3X one. The two linear actuator style servos on the board are the elevator and rudder, then the planes with 4 ch controls use the other two servo plugs for the ailerons.
I haven’t tried any of the other UMX planes, they are quite expensive here. I forgot they haven’t all got safe etc.

@FDS and @The Hangar and @bracesport ...OK! I have done preliminary flight testing w/ guide tubes (in various positions) to inspect effect on flight perfprmamce. Even thought ahead to use specific hook placements on circular servo horn to provide some aileron differential to counter adverse yaw.
Finally settled on final design, and moved on to final step: connecting the servo (spektrum A2010) to the AUX1 port and getting it to respond.
FUBAR.
(1) connected servo to AUX1
(2) configured Tx (Dx6e) to transmit to Aux 1 via aileron stick
(3) when plane battery first attached, servo moves to default 0/90 rotation. Moments later, flips 100% +90deg rotation on its own.
(4) Tx controls seem to only provide -45deg servo displacement from the initial auto +90 rotation (at -100% Tx to signal Aux1). +X% Tx input has no effect.
(5) just as puzzling, the rudder moves with Aux1 no matter what... whether they are assigned to entirely separate channels and sticks, etc. Rudder, and Aux1 aeem
inseparable regardless of channel and stick assignment or whether the rudder is called a rudder channel or an aileron channel (vice versa). What the heck is going on?

...Please help?

 

[FDS]

That’s possibly the stabiliser? I don’t know enough about those all in one boards to give a definitive answer to that. Does it do the same if you plug the Aileron in the rudder port and leave the rudder off?

 

[cloudseeder]

That’s possibly the stabiliser? I don’t know enough about those all in one boards to give a definitive answer to that. Does it do the same if you plug the Aileron in the rudder port and leave the rudder off?

Unfortunately, not such an easy test. the receiver’s elevator and rudder servos are hard wired into the bottom of the receiver it appears. I attached some pics from someone who removed the whole assembly.
I suspect the effect would be the same, however. By default, “Aileron” on the transmitter is the channel that controls the elevator servo. Looking at the radio display, moving the rudder channel does nothing. So, I re-asssigned the rudder Tx stick to the actual rudder servo, and assigned my new servo port to the aileron channel and aileron Tx stick. To my confusion, the aileron stick now affected nothing at all, and the rudder stock governess BOTH the rudder servo and the aileron servo! It’s would almost seem that the receiver’s software inseparably matches rudder and aileron channels to be one in the same regardless of Tx servo config...? (as this model was not intended to have ailerons or flaps anyways. That would make little sense, however (unless they are devious, trying to prevent mods to force customers into buying upgrade receivers or more advanced planes).... At this point Ive spent enough money on wrong parts, wrong horns, wrong cables, wrong glue, replacement wing, (ETC), I could’ve just bought a BNF Timber or Cessna with ailerons already ready to go... BUT i’m very stubborn + invested.... I literally had to get a toolbox for all the micro-scale parts I’ve accumulated. I’d feel like such a clown giving up.

 

[FDS]

I forgot those actuators were on the board, been a while since I looked in my Cub.
The micro parts can still be used for a good indoor flyer for winter. You can always tape up the ailerons and go back to three channel.

 

[cloudseeder]

I forgot those actuators were on the board, been a while since I looked in my Cub.
The micro parts can still be used for a good indoor flyer for winter. You can always tape up the ailerons and go back to three channel.

@FDS: My working theory is that aileron and rudder channels are inevitably linked via Receiver software or hardware (to avoid beginner difficulty with Tx mode and channel asssignment for a 3 channel starter plane like micro Radian?) This hypothesis is because whether my ADDED servo is assigned to rudder or aileron, and the the true rudder assigned to a true rudder channel + rudder Tx stick, the aileron-intended Aux or Gear ports assigned to true aileron channel/stick only respond to rudder channel/stick... and vice versa. Im thinking I could use Y cables to attach aileron servo to Gear and Aux both since they move new servo opposite ways on left Tx aileron stick (so invert the right Tx aileron stick curve for one of them, y= -mx +b), but adverse yaw compensation via rudder is going to be overboard. Can I mix out the rudder movement with aileron input, perhaps?

 

[FDS]

It’s totally fine to mix rudder with aileron input, I do that on turns to a greater or lesser degree all the time.
I am pretty sure the AS3X is the problem, but since you can’t re program or alter it you are stuck with what’s there.
There is a non AS3x version of that board available, with the DSMX receiver. They were very popular a few years ago but stick see,s a little thin on the ground at the moment.