Flite Fest 2017 International Air Races

[HilldaFlyer]

Confusion Resolved

Furey Cup
Spotter required with a stopwatch to get individual times.
3 pylons and a preliminary course has been designed.
Must use aircraft from the Design-off to keep size relative
Max of 4S, possible limit on mAh

Bixler Trophy
All up, last down, Endurance focused, going far and fast
Average (or total time) lap time and correction for every lap flown
Must use aircraft from the Design-off
All starts with same energy (mAh), No limit on motor/prop/ESC combo
minimum wing loading
Pace plane.

Here I was thinking that the idea was going to build two planes, one from the gold age for the Furey Cup and another of any design for the Bixler Trophy. Well, I guess I could do that, but as far as I can tell, the fast racers were not built for endurance. Re-strategizing now... will probably just put one plane in both categories and hope not to crash.

 

[Mid7night]

Here I was thinking that the idea was going to build two planes, one from the gold age for the Furey Cup and another of any design for the Bixler Trophy. Well, I guess I could do that, but as far as I can tell, the fast racers were not built for endurance. Re-strategizing now... will probably just put one plane in both categories and hope not to crash.

I don't remember reading anything that says you have to use the same aircraft for both races; just that the entrants must be from the Design Off. The racer I'm designing will definitely not be endurance-friendly. I think it's a good idea to have people design for either/both, unless willsonman's intentions were otherwise.

 

[willsonman]

You can certainly build one airplane and fly in both with different power systems. Or you can build two different airplanes. Your intention on your design is yours. Design for speed, or endurance, or both!

 

[HilldaFlyer]

I was thinking to build one racer for Furey Cup and a flying wing for the Bixler Trophy. Since the flying wing would not fall into the design specs for the build off, I'll just scratch that and come up with a different power train for the endurance.

I think this is shaping up to be fun.

 

[Craftydan]

I can also see a competitor building out two versions of the same design with different power plants, different airfoils, different reinforcements for the different races.

I fully expect that several of the plane "designs" will not be flown "stock" in the race. In fact, it's those subtle tweaks slipped into the build that can make a competition like this educate and elevate everyone around it. Because of that potential, I'd also expect that any tweaks in the racers should make it to at least a post in the build threads, if not independent threads and videos for the more . . . extensive tweaks.

Now whether those expectations make it into the rules or not, among other things, is up for debate.

 

[willsonman]

I certainly hope not! I would expect that a Furey Cup racer will be a stripped-down "flying gas can" with a super glean wing design. Maybe a thinner airfoil. Having all of it based on a design from the Build-off keeps the 30's theme and sizing relative.

 

[FAI-F1D]

Ok, as a potential participant in this event, I have a serious safety concern. The AMA and FAI pylon layouts are written in the blood of those who raced under unsafe formats.

On a three pylon course, all participants need to be INSIDE the racing loop, with NO turns made into said loop. The safety issue associated with pylon racing are many, and we're now about to do it with foam, on overpowered airplanes, with cheap Chinese servos. There WILL be crashes, big ones. Let's minimize the risk to ourselves and the FT community by using an established configuration.

Here's a good website to get started on this:
http://www.nmpra.net/basics.htm

Personal opinion: As a participant, I'd feel much safer inside a three pylon course than I would outside a two pylon course. The thought of controlling my airplane while having other airplanes turn toward me at any point in the race is enough to make me not even want to be in the event.

 

[willsonman]

Thank you! I could not really find any good information on this as I've never done any competitions. I will review.

 

[FAI-F1D]

Thank you! I could not really find any good information on this as I've never done any competitions. I will review.

Good man. If we observe good safety, some great fun can be had. I can't wait to hear some prop tips doing 600 mph.

One other thing, let's do this such that the spectators are a good distance away.

 

[rockyboy]

With our large spectator crowd and the highest probability of problems being the turn direction, how about a two pylon course with a figure 8 flight path where the end pylon turns are both away from the spectators?

This would minimize crowd risk, while greatly increasing mid-air collision excitement in the middle of the field!

 

[jim_buxton]

I agree with the 2 pylon course as well (minus the figure 8), with the down wind/energy towards crowd turn being well clear of any spectators and pilot stations as shown in the diagram. This provides a good compromise of the oval 'feel' of the 1930's 7 pylon Cleveland course and a simple but safe layout that fits within the space available at Flite Fest.

Admittedly, I am becoming a little concerned about the speeds as well. I envisioned people building up stuff in the 35"-40" range like the FT mustang with a 70 gram motor on 3 cells with a 30 amp ESC . I know this is an air race, so performance will be pushed but within those limits the planes will look cool, be plenty fast, and pilot skill will be a key factor in deciding the winner in what will likely be some close races.

With some of the comments here (admittedly it was Joshua that first made me think about it), and considering the speeds we could be looking at with 140 gram motors on 4 cells at 80 amps this could get exciting, and dangerous. The idea of a bunch of people shoving that much power into relatively untested designs that are primarily foam board does concern me a bit.

Staying positive and interested, but starting to think we need to be a little cautious...
~Jim

 

[SHolman]

SO, moving on with this thread I am still looking for input to refine rules around the races. I will summarize the current input and ideas for each race.

NOTE: These are not final rules!!! This is a summary of possible rules.

Furey Cup
Spotter required with a stopwatch to get individual times.
3 pylons and a preliminary course has been designed.
Must use aircraft from the Design-off to keep size relative
Max of 4S, possible limit on mAh

Bixler Trophy
All up, last down, Endurance focused, going far and fast
Average (or total time) lap time and correction for every lap flown
Must use aircraft from the Design-off
All starts with same energy (mAh), No limit on motor/prop/ESC combo
minimum wing loading
Pace plane

Please please give your input on these. Please also keep in mind the limitations of the aircraft in the design-off. See the rules in that thread.

So, for the Bixler Cup, you mention all up, last down, but also a correction for every lap flown. Does this mean that someone could, say, fly 15 laps really fast, and fall from the sky, but still beat a competitor who might fly only 10 laps, but in twice the time? I guess there will be a formula for normalizing the time and distance. Maybe that is what you mean by average. I would suggest that since you will know the distance between pylons, then if someone falls out short of a pylon, the distance is rounded back to the last pylon - makes it easier to calculate distances.

I also like the idea of limiting to 4S, even 3S. You could limit it to what is available, spec-wise, through the FT Store? That might be too constraining, huh?

One other thought on the course... if the loop around pylon 3 were similar to pylon 2, figure 8-ish, it would make it a turn going away from the flight line, allow for more impacts, and be a little safer.

 

[Mid7night]

SO, moving on with this thread I am still looking for input to refine rules around the races. I will summarize the current input and ideas for each race.

NOTE: These are not final rules!!! This is a summary of possible rules.

Furey Cup
Spotter required with a stopwatch to get individual times.
3 pylons and a preliminary course has been designed.
Must use aircraft from the Design-off to keep size relative
Max of 4S, possible limit on mAh

Bixler Trophy
All up, last down, Endurance focused, going far and fast
Average (or total time) lap time and correction for every lap flown
Must use aircraft from the Design-off
All starts with same energy (mAh), No limit on motor/prop/ESC combo
minimum wing loading
Pace plane

Please please give your input on these. Please also keep in mind the limitations of the aircraft in the design-off. See the rules in that thread.

If you're doing an All-Up-Last-Down event, I don't understand the need for counting laps. I think we need to decide if the Bixler Cup is a DISTANCE-endurance or TIME-endurance event. To win at Distance, you make the most laps. To win at Time, you stay up the longest. I understand you're trying to equalize things and keep the race from dragging on (as time-endurance races can), but I think mixing the two constraints is asking for complications you don't need. I know I was an initial proponent of AULD, but without some sort of safety cutoff that's just asking for battery fires.

What's wrong with simply "Most Laps in a given time"? The racers will have to find the balance between pushing speed (using up more battery) and hanging back (sacrificing laps). Too much "Hare" and you kill your battery before the time runs out, vs. too much "Tortoise" and you won't complete enough laps to win. This is akin to a distance-endurance race with a time-cutoff.

 

[kevparang]

Yes, I really do not get the Bixler Event. Also, were, and when is the FliteTest races.

 

[FAI-F1D]

One other thought on the course... if the loop around pylon 3 were similar to pylon 2, figure 8-ish, it would make it a turn going away from the flight line, allow for more impacts, and be a little safer.

I'm unlikely to participate in a pylon race with some sort of loop/reversal. It's dangerous, plain and simple. Let me be clear: people have been killed doing this sort of stuff. The AMA has made enormous pay outs over the years in pylon racing--spotters now stand in steel cages for protection in certain pylon disciplines.

I agree with the 2 pylon course as well (minus the figure 8), with the down wind/energy towards crowd turn being well clear of any spectators and pilot stations as shown in the diagram. This provides a good compromise of the oval 'feel' of the 1930's 7 pylon Cleveland course and a simple but safe layout that fits within the space available at Flite Fest.
~Jim

Because I seriously don't trust some of the things that might happen, I'm really wanting to be inside the course with the planes circling around. As a competitor, if the planes are ever turning toward me, that's a safety risk I cannot mitigate because my eyes are focused on my own plane. Same for my spotter. So yeah, the safety of all the inexperienced pilots, and those who plan to be focused entirely on their personal speed demons, let's have a conventional 3 pylon course.

Also, Jim, ya gotta keep quiet about those power specs. You're giving away my secrets! :black_eyed:

Ok, back to design mode. I have a ridiculous Folkerts to finish designing...

 

[nerdnic]

What's wrong with simply "Most Laps in a given time"?

I agree. Most laps in set minutes, some value like 3 minutes. This way you can go all out the whole time.. This race is about speed, not endurance like the other race. If you just do most laps for one race and longest up for the other, you really are slating the races for the same plane to win both.

With a race truly focused on speed you'll never have one plane win both races.

 

[Craftydan]

Nic,

You realize that Mid7night is referring to an alternate scoring technique on the Bixler cup (endurance), right?


Mid7night,

One point not made clearly is these aren't a coherent set of rules but ideas competing to become the rules. if some don't make sense in the light of others . . . good! We're chatting out these ideas now.


Conceptually, the Bixler cup was pitched as a distance-endurance race (along the lines of the Bendix Trophy), and I like the idea of it, but pulling it off in a short field (and not trans-continental) and a reasonable period of time (this isn't NASCAR -- we don't have all day) is . . . tricky.

- While scoring lap time and number of laps is mathematically appealing, when it comes to race day, waiting for the homework to be done before we declare a winner is anti-climatic.

- Most laps in a fixed period of time forces the Wh limit WAAAAAY down in order to ensure the fastest planes can't fly the whole duration (3-5 min endurance race may make the pack so small some planes won't be able to draw the current needed to fly well).

- Pure AULD is a time-endurance measure . . . Agreed, not quite the same creature . . . but still, it's close.

None of these methods are ideal . . . such is life.

My vote FWIW, is an AULD with a pace plane. Zippy the hare can throttle back to stall speed and Floaty the tortoise will have to throttle up off of slowpoke to keep ahead of the pace plane. The last plane still in the air had to keep ahead of the pace plane (or they're out) so they have run a reasonable distance, while maintaining a reasonable speed, but still run longer than everyone else. If Zippy can run more efficiently at lower throttle or Floaty can keep ahead of the pace plane without loosing too much efficiency, then they'll have a fighting chance. That being said, setting the pace of the pace plane and the Wh limit will still be an issue . . . this can easily become a >30min race, which might become significantly less fun toward the end . . .

Also, FWIW, I don't expect the same plane will win both races, and I see nothing wrong with that. I can see different airframes of the same design tweaked and optimized for either race having a chance, but an airframe compromised for both races will likely win neither.

 

[willsonman]

I agree that a 3-pylon race will be the safest alternative given the venue. After reviewing more materials I think that a helmet of some kind is a MUST. Hardhat or bicycle helmet... something MUST be worn. While I think a cage is a bit extreme, I do think that the race will be positioned as far away from the spectators as possible. This is also part of the reason for the SIZE of the design-off. I knew this would be necessary so for spectators to see something other than dots in the air, like quad racing, I thought a larger model would be in order.

Nic, I do like your idea to just go all-out for a set time for the speed race. Speed, after all, = D / t. Laps being the distance and having a set amount of time. It has its simplicity for scoring but also complications. I'd like to keep things per the usual FTFF "honest" event. So having each pilot recruit a spotter and then they get to spot someone they do not know. No conflicts of interest and we get more honest counts. From a coordination standpoint I can see how regulating time could be good as everyone launches at the same time. From an entertainment perspective I could see an announcer trying to follow airplanes to the finish as they complete a number of laps. Perhaps this is how we could tackle the difference between the two races? Speed has a set time, and endurance has a set distance?

 

[HilldaFlyer]

Also, Jim, ya gotta keep quiet about those power specs. You're giving away my secrets! :black_eyed:

Well Jim, without divulging the top secret plans of Josh... I think it would be a good healthy discussion on power setups that would be appropriate for this competition to increase knowledge for us that haven't spent years acquiring data on different setups.

For me, I'll let all my secrets out: I was planning on copying nnChipmonk v2 3S power setup (the 4S looks too fast for me) simply because it is a similar sized plane to the ones we should be building and the power setup has been tried and tested.

Maybe someone knows where there is a list of tried and tested specifications that would help. Personally when I get a new motor I test it on my thrust rig and measure Amp, Watt, Volt, RMP, thrust, with several different props to approach the Amp/Watt specifications for the motor. Then I tend to reuse the power setups that I've used and trust.

And for what it is worth, I'm all in for safety. I'm not in this to become a national champion pylon racer, or the winner of the FF2017 Int. Race. I just think it will be loads of fun circling the pylons with planes of the era, even if we're limited to 2S with 40g motors and barely able to fly, well actually I hope we get more that 2S because I don't think mine will fly with 2S. I'm taking part to advance my skills in building "to scale" models. So far that has been a success and I've learned a lot.

 

[nerdnic]

Nic,

You realize that Mid7night is referring to an alternate scoring technique on the Bixler cup (endurance), right?

I edited my post to make the part I agree with clear. I had the race names mixed up but my point still stands.

There is not much variance between planes here though, so don't kid yourself. You're not gonna have a paraglider up for 40 minutes to win a last down event. This is a race event, with scale race planes from the 30s. At the forced 1/6 scale your options are rather limited to make a plane so drastically different from the rest of the competition.

The races need to have clear goals. Are we looking for endurance or speed? There isn't much else to go on for a RC plane race. It seems to me we want a race for each. If that is so then the rules of the race need to support those goals. And in my eyes that would mean there will be different planes represented at the podium ceremonies. Again, given the requirements set for the plans designs you just won't have a huge variance to equipment and frames.

As an example for with some of the suggested rules so far I could easily see my tacon setup winning both. For an all out race I can hit 120 for about 2 minutes straight. Or I can throttle to 40% and clip along at 60mph for 11 minutes on a 2200 4s.

One setup shouldn't be able to nearly take two events. The rules of the race should prevent this from being possible.