Flying without a vertical stabilizer

telnar1236

Elite member
The newest version is about half-built. Not building from plans with these tailless planes is a real challenge since the geometry has to be fairly precise to work well. On the wings you can see both the elevons (to be used purely for pitch control) and the spoilers (which should control roll). Still trying to figure out exactly where I'll want to install my spoiler servos.
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L Edge

Master member
The newest version is about half-built. Not building from plans with these tailless planes is a real challenge since the geometry has to be fairly precise to work well. On the wings you can see both the elevons (to be used purely for pitch control) and the spoilers (which should control roll). Still trying to figure out exactly where I'll want to install my spoiler servos.
View attachment 245258
How did you determine the size of the spoiler?
Talked to a Carf rep, suggested max angle of 25 degrees deflection and a extreme of 30 degrees for drag brakes.
My second attempt for drag brakes is going to have a set of splits.

Using landing gear to save plane like I did with DARKSTAR. Object is to advance throttle enough so it lifts off(nose up/down) and keeps flying about 3-6 inches when CG is right on. Then try a gentle left/right turns about 1 ft and see what happens.
Better than full bore, pickup and watch it crash. Worst case, my way, should give you asphalt rash.
 

telnar1236

Elite member
How did you determine the size of the spoiler?
Talked to a Carf rep, suggested max angle of 25 degrees deflection and a extreme of 30 degrees for drag brakes.
My second attempt for drag brakes is going to have a set of splits.

Using landing gear to save plane like I did with DARKSTAR. Object is to advance throttle enough so it lifts off(nose up/down) and keeps flying about 3-6 inches when CG is right on. Then try a gentle left/right turns about 1 ft and see what happens.
Better than full bore, pickup and watch it crash. Worst case, my way, should give you asphalt rash.
Wish I had a more scientific answer, but these spoilers are a case of it looks about right
 

Piotrsko

Master member
@L Edge If you're like me, gut feeling involved a couple hundred crashes until gut became calibrated.

Spoilers for nose down? Maybe? Hmmmmm. Gut says:"I like it" brain responds: "what do you know?"
 
This whole thread has been fun to read through, and the whole experiment really showcases how much of a geometry problem aerodynamics are.

Vertical stabs are such simple solutions to flight; they provide an opposing force left or right to resist diverting flight. Typically they get larger with respect to the wing area since wings themselves cause yawing forces when in flight and depending on their orientation.

replacing the fin as you've already shown is tricky, cause you have to figure out where else to get your sideways stabilizing forces, and minimize other areas that can cause stability. Swept wings are one of the most effective ways to get sideslip stability, because by nature of being at an angle to forward flight they essentially point some of their lift force sideways. Any slip of some degrees point more lift of whatever wing out sideways and the opposite wing more forward, causing a yawing force to point that noise back straight.

That phenomena is likely why you see more instability with dihedral on your swept wing designs than anhedral. That dihedral is pointing lift back inwards, reducing your stabilizing yawing forces. Anhedral and also the extreme washout points more lift sideways.

On the sizes you're testing those geometries will struggle to balance out, but they could run more effective with larger wingspans. I think one other already suggested such on this thread but that's basically how Prandlt flying wings work. Otherwise you will have to replace your vertical fin with drag rudders, differential thrust, and a whole matter of other tricks.
 

L Edge

Master member
@L Edge If you're like me, gut feeling involved a couple hundred crashes until gut became calibrated.

Spoilers for nose down? Maybe? Hmmmmm. Gut says:"I like it" brain responds: "what do you know?"
How's your gut feeling for this one?
For my second approach with the same plane(udder rudder first test), my second approach is to use a modified drag rudder where I am splitting the two, outer and inner deflection next to each other, so it involves 4 servos(individual) to form the 2 drag brakes. Why, simple to make and I have flat plate body. Don't have a 3D printer. Will try outer half deflected upwards and reverse servos and try outer half down.
Initially,l offset deflections 10 degrees takeoff and landing and switch mode to activate rudder turns.

Plane will have elevons, then deflection of inner say down, outer going up next to each other, both sides, any where from zero to 30 degrees.
Gut says 2 " wide drag rudders on first shot. Thinking it might work. Or should it be outer down?

What does your gut say?
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Gut says inward is nose up effect, outward is down or zero even if they are plumb to the wing. I can see up being useful, down, not so much but could be a trim effect. Yeah it's primarily for hopefulley making drag aft of the CG,

Need picture, having a dyslexia moment.