FPV legal issue

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
CR, there's another angle that's misunderstood from those outside the Ham community.

On the whole, Ham's self police -- and because of that they're allocated wide swaths of the spectrum where there are free to do some really cool things with very few restrictions. Yes, the FCC is the one who levies fines, but the community strives to solve it's own problems.

Just like joining most flying clubs require an AMA membership to fly on their field, for *EVERY* ham community, a callsign is the price of entry, mostly because their field covers the whole world. Without a callsign, you have no name on the air.

As for actual interaction with the FCC, most US hams will have almost none. Take your test, get your call sign, refile before it lapses. The FCC does, however, maintain a national database -- a club roster, if you will. It's an *open* database matched with contact information. It's an old database from long before the government lost it's people's trust and has nothing to do with airplanes, or tracking good/bad citizens but *everything* to do with the community solving problems before the FCC needs to become involved.

For instance, if I heard a callsign on my rig transmitting *WAY* off the stated band, A quick search would get me contact info to warn them they're stepping on others and lend a hand getting the problem sorted out. A good ham would cut off his gear and find out what was wrong. A Lid (a bad operator) will keep on without regard. (This is actually one of the questions on the technician's exam)

The community is strong and very friendly, so Lids are rare, but because they step on us *ALL* they're hunted on the RF spectrum -- in the same way a poacher on a hunting club ground would be tracked, identified, and turned into the game warden. That's the self policing, in action.

If you're out transmitting video from your plane, or car, or hat cam, or secret lair, and the signal is stepping on someone else, without a callsign you're automatically a Lid, and a Ham or commercial radio operator has *no* recourse but to hunt, find and report.

If you had a valid callsign and transmitted it, they could look you up and warn you that, say, rock108 would like their radio station back (second harmonic down of 433Mhz).

It really is about being a good neighbor and joining the community, and not so much about complying with an overbearing bureaucracy.
 
Last edited:

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Before there was government there was radio.

We can hear the big bang over the radio.

Radio is not owned by any club or government.

I have no desire to step on anyone. I have no desire to join a club.

How do I enjoy radio on my own little postage stamp without joining a club or stepping on anyone?

A tech license gives you permission to exceed limits others cannot. How can I find out what those limits are without becoming a tech?

I don't know if I want to exceed the limits or not because I don't know what they are.

When I was a kid we made rockets out of gun powder and cardboard with tissue fuzes. Aluminum shavings make blue sparks, iron makes red. If I did that today, they would pull out the rubber gloves and send me off to Guantanamo Bay.

Today, I transmit at 2.4Ghz with a Turnigy 9X. Does that exceed some limit? Why or why not and how can I find out without asking for a rectal probe or providing a credit card to join a club?
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
I suck at making my point. Lemme try it this way.

Dan, what are your top 10 safety rules for building/flying model toys?


I started mine up 6 months ago when I started building and have been tweaking them ever since. In no particular order I submit to the forum cranialrectosis' rules for not being a butthead.

1. Never fly the maiden without eye protection, long sleeves, long pants. Always maiden without anyone else within 100 ft. Video so you can figure out WTF.
2. The higher up you fly, the more you risk your home owner's insurance.
3. Name and phone number belong on the copter. I am responsible for my toy and for any property that I may damage with it.
4. Never fly over anyone or their dog or their car or the roof of their home.
5. Never call it a drone. It is a flying toy with a funny name.
6. Always check your collettes and motor mount screws and FCB mounts before you fly and after any crash. Always. Always. Always.
7. Stay close enough to hear your battery alarm and ensure your controller alarm is working. Never exceed the alarms or your ability to hear them, especially not up.
8. Be quiet.
9. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

I have room for one more. Do I need to add a rule about not using my radio on Sundays in May when the humidity is > 22% or the FCC will come a calling for a license or is my list adequate?
 

xuzme720

Dedicated foam bender
Mentor
It's the video transmission where the license comes in. We don't need anything to operate the radio control because of the frequency hopping. I think...
 

vk2dxn

Senior Member
Spot on Xu

Just to add, the radio controler (if unmodified) falls under the class licence and needs to be type approved by the FCC to be "part 15 compliant" because it meets the emission spectral purity and power output as specified by the class licence, meaning that you yourself do not need to hold a licence to operate that transmitter (rc controler)
 
Last edited:

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
CR,

Back to an earlier point -- to legally transmit either the device needs to be licensed or the operator does. Your transmitter should have a part-15 stamp on the back, so the OEM went through the trouble of getting it certified. The rules for part-15 compliance demonstrate the equipment should have a low risk of interfering with others beyond what they can ignore.

If it doesn't have that cert, you need the license. That's so if it stops functioning properly, or you set it up wrong, others can *help* you fix the problem, instead of *hunting* you to make you stop hurting others.

I understand what you're saying, but safe on the flying field doesn't mean you aren't unknowingly clobbering someone in RF with an FPV rig. In the same way you've learned to make your flights safer and fun for all by doing specific things, the licensing structure has developed over the years so the spectrum given to hams can be shared safely and fun for all.

By going on air without a callsign -- your name in the RF -- you thumb your nose at other hams, not the FCC. Not only do you ignore the help they can offer, but unknowingly you endanger their fair use of the RF spectrum -- something they've gone through the trouble of licensing for. You think it's not hurting anyone, but unlike flying with a cracked prop, loose servo or a puffed battery, you can't know the damage your doing if you're transmitting without a name.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
BTW, xuzme is right.

If you're worried about your control TX, as long as we're talking about a 2.4G or 72M control, those devices can be part-15 compliant, and almost invariably are.

If you want to run 27M (really old) or a 433M LRS, those need ham licenses.

FPV beyond a few mW won't pass the part 15 cert, so you'll need the license for almost all of those.
 
Last edited:

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
Dan I don't know if you can obtain the same thing for the us via the FCC but would be a good idea to post link

The FCC governs the non-comercial (what we do for fun) intentional radiators via under the CFR Title 47's Part 15 and 97:

Part 15 (as Kogashuko linked earlier)
Part 97

Additionally, the Amature Radio Relay Leauge (ARRL) -- the USA's national "club" -- has a tremendous depth of resources for understanding the rules, getting licensed, and building and operating radio rigs -- All the way from rules to resistors.

http://www.arrl.org/

they also have a Part 15 article that is fairly informative -- so I've learned in the last few hours.

http://www.arrl.org/part-15-radio-frequency-devices

Which leads to a bit of crow eating -- After reading their fine article about part 15 devices, I have been loose with definitions.

- For the intentional radiators we play with, the OEM is required to issue the FCC a declaration of conformity. This is a formal letter, accompanied by independant lab test data. It is up to the FCC to evaluate and request further testing -- if it's rubber-stamped, the vendor can consider it sufficient, and it's off to the market. It's still up to the OEM to get it right, and get it tested, and the device ensures conformity.

- There is a "verification" process, where the OEM only has to issue a statement that it beleives the device is compliant, but no independant testing is required. The only intentional radiators that are granted this exception, however, are homemade rigs (did you cut your own copper?) and low power, low-ish frequency devices (below 490kHz, and 40db below the band limits -- 10,000 times weaker than the max allowed). In any case the device must comply.

So I was wrong: The part-15 device must conform, but it holds no license from the FCC, mearly a mark of compliance that has been evaluated by an independant lab. Devices that do not conform to part-15 (and thus, will lack the FCC stamp) will need a operator license to use -- in our case an amature license.

Knowing what I know of the technical levels allowed by part-15, any meaningful FPV gear we have (anything more than a basestation-to-glasses link, or a parrotAR's wifi), will require an amature license. That will have far more to do with connections and power levels than the formal hoops the OEM must pass.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Dan, thank you.

Thanks to all of you.

I would be mortified to know that I was 'clobbering someone' with a bad rig.

I have always relied on my electronic devices to be compliant. I never considered that they may not be due to coming from China.

I try to understand the rules BEFORE I get into a hobby to avoid pitfalls. Before I buy FPV gear and invest that time and money, I want to KNOW for sure what the rules are. The rules may be so odious that I choose not to invest at all.

I don't see any type of part 15 or FCC compliance markings on my Turnigy 9X. I see it on my phone and my wifi router but not on my Turnigy 9X.

From this thread I understand:
1. If the device is part 15 compliant and I have not modified it and am not using it outside its normal operating parameters, I am good.
2. It is not frequency that matters so much as power. 5.8GhZ attenuates fast. To transmit at such high frequency for any useful range you need power. FPV gear is unlikely to be part 15 compliant because it wouldn't work with the power limitations in part 15.
3. To use 5.8 for FPV you need transmitting power over what part 15 allows and that means you need a license to be legal and to not 'clobber someone'.

Did I get this right?
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Dan, thank you.

Thanks to all of you.

I would be mortified to know that I was 'clobbering someone' with a bad rig.

I have always relied on my electronic devices to be compliant. I never considered that they may not be due to coming from China.

That's a great attitude! It's easy to take our electronics for granted because consumer level electronics go through a lot of vetting so we don't have to worry about whether or not they're compliant...but it's a HUGE issue for the manufacturers. Getting into the kind of stuff needed for FPV you're getting past consumer level electronics and into "Hobbyist" level.

Think of it as going from a Syma level of heli or quad to a homebuilt. You buy the off the shelf quad at your local big box you just expect it to work - and rightfully so. But you build your own higher power quad and it's all on you :D Same with radio. You buy a set of FRS walkie talkies off the shelf at the local big box and you are right to just expect them to work and not need any special license. But you start buying raw transmitters and building your own system...well it's on you again ;)

I try to understand the rules BEFORE I get into a hobby to avoid pitfalls. Before I buy FPV gear and invest that time and money, I want to KNOW for sure what the rules are. The rules may be so odious that I choose not to invest at all.

There's a reason I've got rockets I built but have yet to fly and probably never will. At the time I built them higher power motors (G and up) were easily obtainable (budget permitting...mine wasn't very permitting) but BATF has got involved more and more and it's now considerably more difficult to deal with the legal issues. Last time I checked the options were only buy motors at the field (which means at a club launch which means having to join a club which usually also means having to join NAR/TRA so you're looking at two levels of fees) or to get a BATF Low Explosives User License. I actually looked into getting that license at one point...but the conditions on it were more than I was willing to accept. Basically giving BATF carte blanche to inspect my home and storage setup at any time is not a condition I'm willing to agree to so I can launch cardboard rockets!

I don't see any type of part 15 or FCC compliance markings on my Turnigy 9X. I see it on my phone and my wifi router but not on my Turnigy 9X.

The 9x itself isn't a radio. Only the RF module in the back is and that's what would need to be certified. I've heard varying and conflicting reports as to whether or not the Turnigy modules really are compliant. Some people claim that as with most things out of China the CE/FCC stamps on anything from Turnigy are forged and bogus. Others claim that they're fine.

My research on the 9x has left me willing to use my stock module - but I do plan on switching to a better RF system (either openLRS or FrSky) in the future. The details of my research are more than I can really get into at this moment.

From this thread I understand:
1. If the device is part 15 compliant and I have not modified it and am not using it outside its normal operating parameters, I am good.
2. It is not frequency that matters so much as power. 5.8GhZ attenuates fast. To transmit at such high frequency for any useful range you need power. FPV gear is unlikely to be part 15 compliant because it wouldn't work with the power limitations in part 15.
3. To use 5.8 for FPV you need transmitting power over what part 15 allows and that means you need a license to be legal and to not 'clobber someone'.

Did I get this right?

Pretty much nailed it.

The key to remember is the FCC isn't saying "You can't fly FPV without a license". They could care less if that transmitter is on a plane, a boat, a car, stationary in your house or being carried in your hand. What they care about is transmitters and making sure that they're not interfering with anything. They're just saying you can't use any transmitter that puts out enough power to be received from more than a few hundred feet away without being licensed because that license shows that you've proven you know enough to operate that transmitter and are willing to accept responsibility for it.

One other thing to keep in mind is that we're dealing with the FCC here in the US...but a good portion of the FCC's rules are just derived from internationally agreed upon standards and norms usually through the ITU. Radio spectrum is a limited resource, no one is making any more of it - that's a physical limitation. So we all have to share what there is. I'm not a fan of government regulation at all - but with a limited natural resources who's use has worldwide consequences...it's one area where I'm willing to accept that it's necessary.

Dan is right in saying that the FCC rarely gets involved. And he's also right that with licensed users the FCC is even less likely to get involved. In the 80's I was VERY involved in radio (my dad was president of our local radio club for two years) and saw first hand a number of enforcement actions. In all cases the FCC only got involved after all other avenues were exhausted...and even then they dragged their feet and didn't like getting involved. But once they did...well, the giant was awakened ;) Our club dealt with a number of interference issues on a regular basis. Everything from an illegal operator in Canada who was overpowering the input on our repeater, to neighbors of club members complaining about supposed interference with their TV's (almost universally it turned out that the operator wasn't even home at the time of the alleged interference and that it was problems with other electronics in the complaining parties home causing the interference - but the club was always friendly and helpful and often would solve the problems for the person complaining even though the problems had nothing to do with the licensed operators.)

I've been licensed for 26 years (wow, has it really been that long!) and in that time I've had contact with the FCC exactly twice. Once by mailing them a form to renew and once by filling out an online form to renew. Even when you take the test and get your license you don't deal with the FCC - you deal with local volunteer examiners. FCC is VERY hands off on amateur radio as it very much is self-policing.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
"Getting into the kind of stuff needed for FPV you're getting past consumer level electronics and into "Hobbyist" level."

This was news to me until this thread. That is my concern. What other news is there?

IMO, we cannot afford to let our fellow hobbyists advance from a Zyma (where I started too) without informing them of the responsibilities they are accepting. Not everyone will dig for the answers. We need to make it plain and part of our culture.
 

EEAA

Junior Member
As a new FT Forum member and new to the hobby in general, I just wanted to say how happy this thread made me. Respectful, nuanced, intelligent discussion. That is very rare on the internets these days, so kudos to all of you. I'm glad to be joining you. :)

Additionally, all the discussion about ham radio made me happy, as I've been a licensed op for nearly 3 years now. I've poked around with UHF/VHF, HF, digital modes, etc, and have just recently started to learn CW with my 8 year old son.

Have a great weekend, all.

73 de KD0KIM (Erik)
 

vk2dxn

Senior Member
Welcome to the forum Erik
Morse is something that I will learn one day, the bloke next door is an avid morse ham and ribs me that I got an advanced licence without morse. He likens it to earning your wings "like a real pilot" when you learn morse.
 

kagenotora

Junior Member
hi, guys i read a bit of this thread (not all of it it kind of depress me, and look for possibilities of going to live in the USA too)and i felt like i had to post to tell you how LUCKY you are.
don't complain about your laws at least if you want to you can do it legally, over here you can't even do FPV legally without building your own transmitter because your limited to 10mW on 2.4GHz and 25mW on 5.8GHz (only those bands are legal)
and if you are recording (video or photography) you need a licence plus request an authorization for each flight (with an inspection of your aircraft)
you must be buddy boxed with an other pilot that have the licence(even if not recording despite the fact that you don't need one your self) and the buddy must always have the aircraft in LoS.
nearly forgot: you lose a third of the maximum legal altitude (100m(about 360ft) instead of 150m(about 500ft))
didn't try to pass the licence and won't since i will be in the illegality anyway why bother(only 5 centers were you can pass the tests) and pay? (didn't check it but i heard it's 100euro and must be renowed yearly (25 euro fee))

so be happy that you can reasonably do it legally!

PS: at least on the contoler side there is a band reserved for RC aircrafts... 33GHz
 

vk2dxn

Senior Member
Don't know much of the specs of that amp but it won't do much from an fpv perspective because the frequency that the amp is intended for is more for the av side of the transmission which would be mounted on the aircraft not at the ground station.

Edit:
Long story short, it's not the type of thing that you Are looking for
 
Last edited:

Cyberdactyl

Misfit Multirotor Monkey
hi, guys i read a bit of this thread (not all of it it kind of depress me, and look for possibilities of going to live in the USA too)and i felt like i had to post to tell you how LUCKY you are.
don't complain about your laws at least if you want to you can do it legally, over here you can't even do FPV legally without building your own transmitter because your limited to 10mW on 2.4GHz and 25mW on 5.8GHz (only those bands are legal)
and if you are recording (video or photography) you need a licence plus request an authorization for each flight (with an inspection of your aircraft) 33GHz

Please don't get depressed, there's an exorbitant amount of punctilious hand-wringing going on in this thread.

I'd be curious how many of the guys flying on the FT show have any sort of communication license. Not that it condones not having one, but they regularly fly near a communications tower AND crash into it AND laugh and joke about doing it again.

Like I said earlier in the thread there are those like Team Blacksheep that are ruining it for every one. So just be responsible, considerate and respectful of those around you, know generally what your transmissions are doing and 98% of the time you won't have any issues.
 

kagenotora

Junior Member
what depress me is how easy you guys have it compared to us here in France, and don't even get me started on prices for example i compared what it would cost me to by a DX9 + Blade Nano QX BNF + 4 QX's additional batteries + express shipment(147$) from horizon hobby to a giant(800m²) hobby store here in paris ( it's the least expensive one) well first i could not do a straight comparison cause they don't have the batteries so: DX9 + Blade Nano QX BNF + express shipment : 20 euro (27,58 usd) more expensive (35euro(48,26 usd) if i go buy it at the store) oh btw i used the DX9 because it had the smallest gap in price, and don't get me started on motors : none under 25 usd and non under 1400kv under 70usd
 
Last edited: