FPV250

Crustacean

Junior Member
I've been practicing on my trainer quad, and I'm looking to build a basic quad for FPV. I'd like to be able to build on this setup.
I wont be adding FPV equipment until later. Here's what I'm thinking so far:

FPV250L long frame
KK2.1.5 Flight controller
Multistar 2206-2150KV "baby beast" Motor
Afro 12A V3 ESC w/simonk (are these a good fit?)
2 blade 5030 GemFan props
Turnigy nano-tech 1300mAh 4S 45~90C Lipo (and probably an 1800mAh)

I cant decide on rx/tx though. Any suggestions?
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I'd say look at better props. The 5" gemfans are really really bad props. They're very thin so they bend and deflect in flight, they break if you look at them funny, and they just don't make much thrust. They're cheap, I'll give them that. But the HQ's and FC's are FAR FAR better props for not that much more cost.

I'd also suggest a different flight controller, KK's aren't bad...but there's a reason you don't see many on minis and it's not just because they're kind of big for a frame that size. Something with full PID's instead of just PI will give you much better flight performance.

I've heard mixed things about the multistar motors...personally I can't see risking my money on HK motors they're just too inconsistent and don't hold up very well in my experience. The Cobra and SunnySky's aren't that much more anymore (only about $5 a motor more if you shop around) and are both VERY nice motors. But then again I have heard a few good reports on those 2206 multistar's as well including a few people running them on 4s - so maybe HK has a winner this time. Personally I'd rather go with the Cobras or SS's.

The afro 12a ESC's should be ok. I'm much happier than I expected to be with the emax 12a's (sold as "simon series" even though they're running blheli) and if you're not afraid of flashing them yourself the BS12's are pretty good as well. Though if your budget allows it's really hard to beat the KISS esc's on these high Kv motors.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
Good tips! I've read some bad things myself about the hobby king motors, though the baby beast seem to be the best.

Do you know of any SunnySky motors that would work on this build? I was actually looking at these esc's.
The KISS esc's look good though! I love their size. Flyduino and GetFPV are out of stock on them though (and they're expensive).

As for flight controller, I'm actually looking into the CC3D. I really like the looks of the ArduPilot. Particularly the HKPilot. However i want something that will fly even if i struggle setting it up.
I'm sure I can handle the setup process eventually, but I don't want to overwhelm myself right away.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
The SunnySky 2204's pretty much set the bar for high performance 250 motors:
http://www.multirotorsuperstore.com...ky/sunnysky-x2204-2300kv-brushless-motor.html

Banggood has really good prices on them as well:
http://www.banggood.com/Sunnysky-X2204-2300KV-Brushless-Motor-For-RC-Model-p-945688.html

But...I've heard some reports that SS is saying banggood has been caught shipping counterfeit sunnysky's. Which would explain why they seem to be selling them for less than anyone else.

The KISS esc's really are great, I got to use them on the warp quad I helped a friend build over the summer. The performance from them was remarkable. They are expensive and often out of stock...and difficult to solder...and some people have had problems with burning them up in crashes or randomly before even getting into the air. But they fly like nothing else on the market. I'm not a great pilot but I could feel a HUGE difference from them immediately. Heck just spinning up the motors the first time after installing them the difference was obvious before we even tried to fly...they ran the motors so much smoother they were practically silent. I had no idea how much ESC's can contribute to the sound of a motor until experiencing that!

I'd suggest looking at the Tau Labs Sparky over the CC3D. OpenPilot has had issues flying well on smaller quads and the CC3D is using the older F1 chip (same as the Naze32) which limits it's capabilities. Tau Labs just released the latest version of their firmware/ground software and it has some really great wizards that make setup super easy - and it has an outstanding autotune that has really amazed me. It flies great in both acro/rate mode and it supports more leveling modes than anything else I've tried (leveling, slow leveling, horizon (borrowed from MW), virtualbar (really intersting mode I'm enjoying a lot right now), and a few others I haven't experimented with yet.) It also does a great altitude hold - though it does it more like a Naza than a MW/Naze meaning the throttle goes into vario mode where instead of controlling motor speed it controls altitude (hold the throttle in the center and it holds altitude, move it down and quad goes down move it up and quad goes up.)

I mainly fly MW and MW derived stuff ( my own arduino mega with external sensors on MW 2.3, a flip pro, a few homemade arduino pro mini based setups, a couple of Naze32's and an afromini) I've also tried a KK board but wasn't very impressed by it. I just built my own "flyingF4" Tau setup though and am blown away by it. The ground software is so much more polished than the MW stuff and so much more user friendly. And it flies great.

The only real issue with Tau is that the documentation is a bit scarce at times - but since it's a fork from openpilot the OP docs fill in a lot of holes. And the lead developer of Tau is very friendly and responsive on their forums, heck their entire dev community is one of the friendliest I've experienced as far as flight controllers go.

If you do go with the CC3D you can actually try Tau on it as it's a supported platform...but due to it's F1 processor not all features are supported on it.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
Position hold and loiter mode FTW.

I found the sunny sky's at DroneMatters (quad parts are difficult to source :| )
Someone else recommended the DYS 1806 2300kv motors, but sunnysky seems to be the more trusted motor.

Updated parts list:

FPV250L Frame
Sparky Flight Controller
SunnySky 2204-2300kv motors
HK BlueSeries 12A Rapid ESC w/SimonK
HQ Prop 5030's
1800 mAh 3s 45~90c Lipo
FrSky Taranis Tx
FrSky X8R Rx

Seem good?
Total: ~430. Not bad! I'll need a lipo charger and some consumables as well. Not exactly sure what connectors ill need.

Any tips on little things that im missing? Like a PPM? (i dont need that, right?).
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I haven't tried POS hold on Tau yet...but the videos I've seen are quite impressive. And everything else on Tau has worked so well I fully expect POS to as well. In altitude hold I was shocked that Tau worked better with my old BMP085 sensor and no tuning than Naze does with it's newer more accurate baro sensor and extensive tuning.

I have a quad with the DYS 1806's and have been rather unimpressed with them...though it may be ESC issues. I just haven't had a chance to try different ESC's yet to see if it clears up the problems. But one of the DYS motors I got was seized right out of the box as it had some kind of black sand in it which was causing interference. I was able to clean it out and get it working again...but the DYS motors just haven't impressed me. I've used them with both the afromini and a Flip pro and experienced odd behavior from both that I haven't had on any of my other quads. Hopefully I'll get to try some different ESC's on there soon.

Speaking of ESC's - you had asked about the BS12's from RTFQ. Those are actually the ESC's I'm using with the DYS 1806 motors and the ones I suspect may be my problem. But my particular ESC's came off a warp where they had been crashed quite hard quite a few times before being replaced with KISS's - so they aren't exactly representative of the ESC's in general. Overall the opinion of the RTFQ BS12's is fairly good from what I've heard and they're basically a clone of the 12A "blue series" from HK. Just be sure to put simonk or blheli on them since high Kv motors can have issues otherwise. (which can result in damage to the motors and/or ESC's)

I'm much more impressed with the emax 1806's that I have on my emax 250 FPV setup and have been running with the emax 12a ESC's. I did have to reprogram (not reflash) the ESC's to change the PWM rate and get rid of the annoying whine they cause with the stock settings (I also disabled the low voltage cut out and tweaked a few other settings though I'm not sure if they've helped or hurt yet.)

The emax motors are smaller and lighter and appear more delicate...but they're much quieter, smoother and more predictable than the DYS have been.

Neither of them really stands up to the 2204's though. The 2204's are far more impressive motors. I'd say 1806's are kind of like a v6 while 2204's are like a v8 to put it in car terms :)


I don't know the FrSky stuff well enough to know if that particular RX supports PPM out of the box or not, so I unfortunately can't help you there.

Be sure to get plenty of props, they're small and cheap and you'll go through quite a few having fun ;) You may want to get some 6030 or 6045's for when you're a bit more experienced with it as well - if they'll fit your frame. The 2204's will handle them just fine and some 1806's will as well - I'm running 6045's on my emax 1806's and they seem quite happy about it.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
Sounds like the SunnySky 2204 motors are the motors for me then. I've picked ESCs pre-flashed with simonk though, so that's good. Im thinking of getting my Sparky from witespy because its way cheaper.. but i did just read some negative things about witespy.

The X8R doesn't support PPM, but it supports S.Bus. I think i could connect that to the Sparky. I dont want any issues though, so I'll switch to the FrSky D8R since it supports ppm. I'm open to recommendations on this if you have any. I really want everything to go smoothly ha.

The flight controller is powered from the ESCs, right?
Also, know of a power distribution board that fits well in the FPV250?

Thanks again for all the help, sorry for the barrage of questions!
I feel an intense need to just get all of the parts in front of me so I can figure everything out then. I just want to make sure i order everything I need.
 
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rcflyer729

fpv and rc planes
I would get this stuff I think it is a lot better than what you were thinking about.

These motors seem to work great and preform awesome. http://www.myrcmart.com/rcx-h18066-...0300-frame-accepting-preorder-now-p-7990.html

These esc work awesome. I was using 10 amp esc but they are to small. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231345917285?lpid=82

Here is a better deal on the esc. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4X-Emax-12A...Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a96a44bdd

Here is the quad I have. It is really strong and the arms are really thick. it will support 6 in props. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emax-250mm-...Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f3ce218c8

I would not get this mini quad the arms are not near as thick. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mars-250-Pr...Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item486a432347

This is an awesome little flight controller for the price. Way better than the kk2. http://www.readymaderc.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_156&products_id=3061

I would use 5x4 HQ props with a three cell 1300mah battery or 6x3 HQ props with a 2200mah battery.
 

rcflyer729

fpv and rc planes
I have heard some scary things about the sunny sky motors for mini quad. I have heard that there are problems with them the ones I recommended have more power while being half the price.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
I've also heard there were some problems with the sunnysky's. I've heard they've since been resolved though.

Thanks for the post rcflyer.
There are so many options! I do really like that frame, especially the rubber mounts for the camera tray. Those motors look pretty robust as well. I'll have to do some googling. The amount of choice is almost overwhelming!
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
nice! There seems to be more build logs with the emax frame than the FPV250. It'll probably go with the Emax, it looks super nice. Did you happen to do a build log? Id love to see it.

Still not sure about the motors though. And the flight controller. The sparky seems kinda complicated in that there is a limited amount of info on it, if i run into a problem it might take some stress to fix. It does have the auto tuning though, which would help me out if i did in fact get the quad in the air.

part of me wants to just grab a kk and be done with it, since there are so many people using them and they're really cheap.. But i know they're not the best.

EDIT: I think maybe ill just start with the Naze32. I should probably keep it simple since this is my first build. Sparky can be my next step.
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Sounds like the SunnySky 2204 motors are the motors for me then. I've picked ESCs pre-flashed with simonk though, so that's good. Im thinking of getting my Sparky from witespy because its way cheaper.. but i did just read some negative things about witespy.

witespy has his ups and downs. He's slow to ship and not good at responding to e-mail. He's also not very good about respecting IP rights (the quanton board he produces is covered by a license that excludes producing it for profit like he his.) That said...his boards are pretty good. They're made in China but the ones I've seen have all been very well made. I'm not a huge fan of his, but I have ordered a few things from him and if I was to order a sparky anytime soon I'd probably get it from him because the only other option is Dragon right now and I think they're charging too much (plus they include a debugging connector on the bottom that's not needed and just adds extra weight and prevents mounting the board with double sided tape.)

The SunnySky 2204's are pretty amazing motors, but to be honest I'd probably go with the Cobra 2204's if it was my money as Cobra seems to be a bit more consistent and their motors have a few little touches I like over the SS's. There were some issues with some Sunny 2204's earlier this summer - mostly due to them having problems keeping up with the demand and letting quality slip a little. But I suspect the bigger problem is people buying them from places like banggood that aren't as scrupulous and winding up with counterfeit motors then blaming SS. All of the authentic SS motors I've seen have been outstanding and have performed great.

1804 motors aren't bad...but even the best 1804 just can't compare to the 2204's. Test stand numbers may show similar thrust...but in the air the difference is huge due to how the motors deliver their power.

The X8R doesn't support PPM, but it supports S.Bus. I think i could connect that to the Sparky. I dont want any issues though, so I'll switch to the FrSky D8R since it supports ppm. I'm open to recommendations on this if you have any. I really want everything to go smoothly ha.

Again, I just don't know FrSky stuff well enough to know what to suggest. Both the Sparky and the Naze32 can handle S.Bus so that's not an issue. I think most people with FrSky are using a smaller 4ch RX that actually supports full 8ch operation over PPM - but I don't know the model name off the top of my head.

The flight controller is powered from the ESCs, right?
Also, know of a power distribution board that fits well in the FPV250?

Generally yes. The KISS esc's though don't have BEC's built in so you have to use an external BEC or something like a pololu voltage regulator to get your 5v. Though some FC's can handle 2s-3s input direct it's generally not a great idea as the regulators they use generate a lot of heat with that big of a voltage difference.

I used the afro power board from the creator of the Naze32 on my emax 250 (since it was included in the kit I got) and it's a nice little board the same size as the Naze32. I didn't really care for it's layout at first but once I used it I found it worked better than I expected.

Thanks again for all the help, sorry for the barrage of questions!
I feel an intense need to just get all of the parts in front of me so I can figure everything out then. I just want to make sure i order everything I need.

I know the feeling :) Don't worry about asking questions.

The emax frame is pretty nice. It's no Blackout but for the price I'd say it's a good deal. You can see my build/review thread here: http://forum.flitetest.com/showthre...-FPV-mini-build-(with-Naze32-GPS-experiments)

The standard version isn't really carbon fiber, it's G10 with a veneer of carbon over it - which is why the arms are so thick (they wanted to match the strength of CF so they had to go thicker with the G10) they have an all carbon version out as well which steps down to "standard" 3mm arms since they're all carbon. Personally I don't have a problem with the G10/Carbon setup since it's not that much heavier, plenty strong, and somewhat cheaper (which is always a big selling point for me :D )

My biggest criticisms of the emax frame are:
  • inconsistent quality
  • "landing gear" falls off
  • Not as much room for FPV gear as it appears.

As you can see in my thread the QC on their materials is pretty low. The thickness difference between my arms was more than I expected. I've seen some reports on rcgroups of people getting arms in the same kit with more than 1mm difference between them! (even on the more expensive carbon version)

The landing gear is just some aluminum spacers held on with a single screw. I couldn't get them to stay tight during flight and lost them repeatedly. I replaced them with some black zip ties which give a softer landing, don't fall off, and IMHO look better than the colored metal bits.

The space issues are due to the short top deck. When I first built mine it seemed like there was GOBS of room...but then I started adding FPV gear and quickly realized there's no good place to mount a VTX without a pigtail for the antenna so you can bury the TX in the middle and put the antenna elsewhere. For now I've just been strapping my TX on top of my battery pack but I worry about damaging it up there where it's unprotected. I would really have liked to see the top plate extend the full length like most other frames of this design.

The emax 1804's I'm running on it fly nice and don't get too hot even with 6045 props. But...performance is still lower than I'd like after experiencing 2204 motors on other builds. Eventually I swap over to 2204's but don't have the funds right now.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
jhitesma, i just noticed you have an emax 250 frame!

I think i might just follow your build log :D with the exception of motors.

EDIT: Oops, you posted right before me. Let me read what you said about it...
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
Hmm i see. I really like the looks of the Emax frame, so ill probably go that route.

I think I'm going to pretty much get everything that you did, but possibly different motors and ESCs.
I think I'll use the cobra 2204 motors and HK blue 12a ESCs w/simonk like i was originally planning.

I'm thinking i'll start with a Naze32 full flight controller (even though its the same price as the sparky..) just to make things easier for myself. I don't know. I might get the sparky. I'm going to sleep on it.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
I kinda liked the idea of position hold/loiter. It looked really good on the sparky, not sure yet how it does on the naze.

Considering the naze acro as well.

I found the receiver jhitesma was talking about though! It's the D4R-II. Seems a lot of people are using it with the sparky. I've found instructions on how to get it to work as well :D

So i could get a naze32 acro and a D4r-II now, then if i ever feel the need to upgrade to a sparky, i wouldnt have to buy a new Rx.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Even the acro Naze will do autolevel. The only benefit to the full naze is you can do altitude hold and GPS stuff. But neither of those features really work well and Timecop the developer of Baseflight (the default firmware for Naze) has more or less zero interest in developing them.

I've been experimenting with GPS on MW and Naze for almost a year now and the performance is....poor. Even with lots of tuning.

The position hold on Naze will almost keep it in a 40' circle....if you've got a really good GPS lock and calm weather. Tuning can get it better but not much. RTH is a joke on MW/Naze, I've had it almost kind of work a few times.

Altitude hold on MW/Naze is pretty poor as well. Though I do like that it's an "overlay" that can be applied to any flight mode unlike Tau/Sparky where it's a separate flight mode all to itself. And even with the better sensor on the Naze and several hours of tuning the altitude hold doesn't hold altitude nearly as well and Tau did with my older sensor and no tuning.

The Naze is a great flying board. But honestly I see almost no reason to get the full one. If you want those features you'll just about have to go with Tau or APM. There are other firmwares for the Naze that are working on improving that stuff...but they're still limited by the F1 processor on the Naze.

The one gotcha I'd warn about using the blue series 12's on the emax frame is they won't fit in that bottom section where I mounted mine. You'll probably have to mount them on the arms (which is nice since it helps keep them cool - but which exposes them to more risk of damage as well.) The KISS and the emax 12's are the only ESC's I can think of that will fit under that bottom plate the way I mounted them.
 

Crustacean

Junior Member
I've pretty much got a build together. DroneMatters actually has a package with exactly the components I want, it'll save me $30. The HK ESC's and the Afro Ultra Lite v3's are the only ESCs available with the kit, so ill probably just get the HK Blue 12a's. If i damage them ill grab some emax 12a ESCs. 12a will definitely cover me with the Cobra 2204-2300kv's, right? Drone matter states that the max amp draw of those motors is 15a.

I've got:

  • Emax250 Frame
  • Afro Power distribution
  • Naze 32 Acro
  • 4x Cobra 2204-2300kv
  • 4x HK Blue 12a ESC w/SimonK
  • FrSky D4R-II
  • FrSky Taranis X9D
  • HQ 5030 Props
  • Turnigy nano-tech 1800mAh 3s 65~130c
  • Bullet connectors
  • XT-60 pigtail

I have plenty of heat shrink and solder.
I think ill need a battery capable of 50c at the most. So that 1800 might be overkill.
Any little things I'm missing? Nylon nuts, etc. Maybe some 6045 props?
 
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