FT 30amp esc's and BLhelisuite. Still baffled...

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
So.. Today I decided after seeing another thread about blheli suite that I would make another attempt to try and update my emax 30amp esc's on my quad. I am currently running them totally defaulted and throttle calibrated only. They seem to work fine and I probably shouldn't be messing with them.

The thing is I want to learn how to tune esc's for better performance as I will be starting a 5 inch build as soon as I gather all the parts. I am running clean flight 1.2.2 and just got the latest blheli suite version 16.2.14.6.0.1. I watched the newest Joshua Bardwell vids on blheli suite this morning as well. When I tried to connect using pass thru the esc's would not act like the would in Joshua's videos. Instead when connecting power and getting into the esc's programming the FC (SPF3 possible clone?) boots as normal like I wanted to fly.

Anyway I looked at the newest list of esc's supported by BLheli Suite and it shows the emax 12 and 20 amp esc's as well as a 40 amp but not the 30 amp sold by FT Store, and a different type of smaller 12a emax. Now the 30 amp esc's are branded EMAX as well as with the blheli name which makes me assume they have some sort of blheli firmware on them. When I try to connect with the suite it will talk to the esc's but will not read them or show they even have firmware loaded. I have tried to connect and read them with both the Silabs and the Atmel interface and they act and show the same things with no obvious errors or messages for what is happening. The logging shows successful connections and reads but list 0 esc's connected.

I have a list of questions but I will start with just a few for now. First I assume that the firmware is different from a "Bootloader" and one needs to be loaded. On the list for the blheli suite it shows that a resistor and a capacitor need to be removed from the esc to work with or load a bootloader for both the smaller and the 40 amp esc's. Would I have to do that to the 30 amp ones I have or can they not be changed at all since they are not in the list of esc's? If so then this is all moot as I wont go thru that as long as this is flying fine and will wait to learn how to set up esc's when I do the full kiss set up on a 5 inch build. It just would be nice to be able to learn and make changes on what I am flying to see how things like braking and one shot all work as well as motor timings and such.

So anyone who may be bored and knows of these things that would want to impart their wisdom on yet another clueless builder please feel free to chime in.
 

LitterBug

Techno Nut
Moderator
That's a tough one. Do you have top and bottom pictures of a naked ESC so we can try and identify them?

Cheers!
LitterBug
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
The issue is that emax blheli ESC's aren't really running blheli.

Well...they are...but it's an older version, with their own custom non-compatible bootloader and other modifications.

Which means you can't flash/program them across the servo line until you've flashed them "the hard way" once.

The hard way isn't really THAT hard. You just have to open them up and temporarially attach wires to 4 points then use an Arduino (uno/mega/nano...they all work) in programmer mode to flash them.

Here's a video of me flashing 4 blheli ESC's at once to show the basic process:

That's kind of the advanced version though since I'm doing four at once, and they're the built in ESC's on the Nighthawk 250's all in one board...but the basic concepts/steps are the same.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I have a list of questions but I will start with just a few for now. First I assume that the firmware is different from a "Bootloader" and one needs to be loaded. On the list for the blheli suite it shows that a resistor and a capacitor need to be removed from the esc to work with or load a bootloader for both the smaller and the 40 amp esc's. Would I have to do that to the 30 amp ones I have or can they not be changed at all since they are not in the list of esc's? If so then this is all moot as I wont go thru that as long as this is flying fine and will wait to learn how to set up esc's when I do the full kiss set up on a 5 inch build. It just would be nice to be able to learn and make changes on what I am flying to see how things like braking and one shot all work as well as motor timings and such.

Whoops, should have finished reading your message as I almost forgot that part....

One you've flashed real blheli you'll have to remove that resistor and cap if you want to be able to reprogram/flash them through the servo wire...but...I would advise against it. Those parts are there for a reason. Specifically they make sure that the input signal to the ESC is clean. Removing them you can loose quality in your signal.

Instead it's a better option to wire programming harnesses to the points for programming "the hard way" and use an arduino when re-flashing.

Yes, you can remove that cap and resistor but the gains aren't worth the risks IMHO unless all you want to do with that ESC is flash and reprogram it all the time. Personally I'd rather spend more time using it to fly than tweaking with it - really adjusting ESC settings isn't something that needs to be done very often (or I would even argue shouldn't be done very often as you're generally more likely to make things worse than better.)

Removing the cap and resistor makes reflashing and adjusting settings easier - but at the cost of risking worse control - and the whole point of tuning an ESC is to get better control...so why risk it?

If you want to make changes often then either get an ESC that's designed to accept programming over the servo wire, or add a programming header. Otherwise get them setup and then just leave them is my advice.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Thanks for all the help guys. This answered a bunch of questions. I started with the Versacopter to help support Flite Test as that is where 90% of my learning about quad copters as well as inspiration to fly again has come from. I know its by far not equal to any of the machines that are racing today and I knew that going into it. I have worked on it more as a learning tool and at this point I think I have maxed out what I can do without dumping a ton of money into it.

I will leave it as is and enjoy flying it now that it is doing what I originally intended it to do and be. A very reliable and stable quad to build skills for both flying and building. I think at this point any further investments for parts will be to start putting together a 5 inch to catch up to the "Jones's" and maybe step up into the next level for more skill building.

As for programming esc's I wanted to start experimenting on what things do more then anything. I know things like the various one shot programing that are out there as well as timings like damped light make a difference in the smaller faster quads and I REALLY hate doing "Cookie cutter" things like just copying what the masses are doing. Just like in video games I usually can come up with a better way to set things up then just doing that which more suits my style of doing things. I did the same thing when I was able to work. I would find more optimal ways to do things like taking a build process for a machine that was taking 22 days with three to five people working on it down to 3 days solo for final production. Seems that is one of the few things in life I was meant to do.

Anyway once again thanks for the input, instruction, and advice for which I shall follow and stop trying to fix that what isn't broke at this point as they say. I guess the next phase for the Versa is better video to let people laugh at.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
It is worth flashing them to a newer version of BLheli, emax claims that the "brake" mode you can enable with stick commands in the stock firmware is dampedlight...but my tests showed it not performing as well so I'm doubtful of their claims. Plus the newer versions of blheli are more reliable and fix some issues in emax's old custom version.

It's just the focus on constantly changing ESC settings that I'm not a fan of. There are better ways to get improved performance and most ESC settings have a good chance of damaging hardware if you just go blindly changing them to see what happens. I'm also not a huge fan of the rush to constantly upgrade ESC firmware just because a new version came out. Very seldom is there any benefit to doing so for most people, and quite often there are new bugs and issues in new versions so it can be a step backwards if you're chasing reliability and/or performance.

I do have programming headers on my Nighthawk, but haven't upgraded in months because it's flying well and the hardware of the ESC's is a bigger limiting factor than the software with these emax ESC's.

The old "Simon Series" emax esc's I had on my original nighthawk which are now on my UBMQ I'm still running the stock firmware (which despite their name is also a modified version of blheli) because while I could get a small performance increase by upgrading and enabling oneshot the FET's on those esc's are too slow for damped light and damped light gives a MUCH bigger performance increase than oneshot based on testing I and several others have done with tauLabs/dRonin's autotune and it's ability to measure the tau response of the multirotor. Basically Tau is a measurement of how quickly the system reacts - how long between when the FC commands a change to the motors and when the gyros detect the results of that change. The lower the tau the better the system. oneshot125 gives a very very small increase, oneshot42 gives an even smaller increase, multishot gives basically no measurable increase in all but the most ultra responsive quads and even then it's minuscule compared to any number of physical delays that can't be eliminated...while at the same time multishot becomes far more likely to experience interference due to the nature of the signal so basically it's a very tiny and questionable benefit with some substantial risks...it does play the star wars theme though.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
haha That's funny about the Starwars theme.

I think for the Versa I will stick with whats going on for now. Here are two vids showing how its flying for me. I get very little to no oscillations unless I am doing an aggressive turn in a cross wind that happens to gust up while I am in a turn. I can do flips and rolls and FPV racing. The only thing it really doesn't have now is a respectable hang time for those inverted maneuvers due to its weight. I could punch it harder I suppose but why stress everything and not just wait to have a smaller quad with a higher power to weight punch to get all that. I do have to tweak it a touch as I now have a go pro clone on the front as well as a longer heavier antenna out the back to adjust for but the difference is so minor I probably wont. Maybe just add a point or two of D to stiffen it up after flips at most I think.

Here is some LOS free style goofin around.


and here is some LOS low level twisting and turning with a few flips n rolls trying to find any hidden oscillations that may be left.