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Pumpkin drop event

FT Monster Radial

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Mentor
#2
Nice review Josh.

I know this is a prototype but I will assume in the design and test stage of developement they did thrust tests and all that.

So far the new motors have everyone scratching their heads why none of the important specs get posted.

Maybe something to have as a follow up or maybe in future reviews since it seems you may be getting groomed as an official reviewer.

The only thing you missed and I know your not gonna put a beautiful plane like that sukkoi in the dirt but this IS after all Flite test and I know we all would like to know how these hold up in a real world crash they will all eventually go thru.

Maybe get a final product to replace this on in the sukkoi and toss this one in a crash test foamy?

Anyways this went far to long unresponded to so heres a bump back into the spot light.

Good review.
 

Tonero311

Active member
#3
Been waiting so long in seeing more about the monster radial. Last I seen Ben's Cessna with one I was really impressed and loved the design immediately. The huge flight times were jaw dropping and amazing lines on the bird.
Think that will be a first massive airplane for me to build but it will definitely need the set up Ben had in his video.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#4
So far the new motors have everyone scratching their heads why none of the important specs get posted.

Maybe something to have as a follow up or maybe in future reviews since it seems you may be getting groomed as an official reviewer.
Yeah, so the thing is that what one person views as "critical" specs is jibberish to another. What I can tell you is that my "Testing" of the motor indicates a few things.
  1. My skills are lacking to test motors in a true "scientific" way.
  2. What I found was a RANGE of the motor kV. I found that in some test situations. It would be around 390 and in some, 460. So, 420 does seem about right. Again, from my review, comparing this to my Eflite and Suppo motors, this seems to be the case. However, I am still floored at the amount of power this motor can handle.
If there are specific specifications or measurements you would like me to get, by all means, ask away.

As far as putting this one into the dirt... yeah, not exactly the intention of this. I would expect durability to be about average. The motor shaft seems to be aluminum, which will not likely take a hit well, and without a bolt-on shaft, replacing it will be difficult for someone who has never done it. I did not cover that in my review because, again, I have no idea if this is the final design or just the prototype. The final design may very well have a hardened steel shaft with a bolt-on prop adapter. I just do not know.

I have not dabbled into measuring thrust on my scale. Again, something I can do if there is interest.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#5
I think you nailed all the specs that matter. Only thing you missed was how hot the motor got while pulling those amps. E-Flite and hobby king motors are kind of bargain basement motors, I have used both in this class, they work, but the bearings do not hold up to hard 3d flight. On the top end would be Motrofly, top price as well, which hold up well, and seem to be a lot more efficient. So bearings aside. The E-Flite motor heats up scorching hot when drawing 2400W. The motrofly is cool as a cucumber. The hobby king motors have burnt up on me. The fact you did not burn up the radial is a good sign lol
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#6
Well, to be fair, Neither the HK or Eflite motors I was referencing are rated for over 2KW. How hot was the radial after pulling 2400W? I do not have a numerical value but I could wrap my finger around it and hold it there indefinitely without needing to remove it from heat. Not exactly calibrated but it is promising. It was hot, but not scorchingly so.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#7
Well, to be fair, Neither the HK or Eflite motors I was referencing are rated for over 2KW. How hot was the radial after pulling 2400W? I do not have a numerical value but I could wrap my finger around it and hold it there indefinitely without needing to remove it from heat. Not exactly calibrated but it is promising. It was hot, but not scorchingly so.
That is very promising! Considering both of the other ones are scorching after a hard flight at about 90amp draw peak.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#8
My only familiarity with the Eflite Power 60 motor is on my P-47, running the CC Talon 90 ESC. I noticed after a flight that my dummy radial had come loose and was rubbing on the motor. When I removed the cowl and dummy radial, it was very very hot and there was melted plastic on it. It was not gooey or runny plastic but it did come off easily.

The Suppo motor on the Corsair comes down cool like the Radial. I've got a 100A ESC on that one but it is swinging the same prop at a lower kv.

Still, at 90A on a 6S pack, that is adding up to around 2000W... (6S*3.8V)*90A = 2052W The Eflite motor's manual states up to 1800W specifying 80A burst and max continuous at 65A. The GH4130-07 motor is also rated for a maximum of 80A for 60 seconds (burst) however its maximum wattage is rated at 1500W. So, if you are regularly pulling 90A and complaining about how hot the motor gets, perhaps you are pulling more current than what is recommended. Having no specifics on what motors you are referencing I can only go off of what I am comparing to.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#9
My only familiarity with the Eflite Power 60 motor is on my P-47, running the CC Talon 90 ESC. I noticed after a flight that my dummy radial had come loose and was rubbing on the motor. When I removed the cowl and dummy radial, it was very very hot and there was melted plastic on it. It was not gooey or runny plastic but it did come off easily.

The Suppo motor on the Corsair comes down cool like the Radial. I've got a 100A ESC on that one but it is swinging the same prop at a lower kv.

Still, at 90A on a 6S pack, that is adding up to around 2000W... (6S*3.8V)*90A = 2052W The Eflite motor's manual states up to 1800W specifying 80A burst and max continuous at 65A. The GH4130-07 motor is also rated for a maximum of 80A for 60 seconds (burst) however its maximum wattage is rated at 1500W. So, if you are regularly pulling 90A and complaining about how hot the motor gets, perhaps you are pulling more current than what is recommended. Having no specifics on what motors you are referencing I can only go off of what I am comparing to.
I agree I was pushing things. Issue is I am spoiled by motrofly and hacker. In a few days i am about to test a xpwr 60, I am hoping it can do what the specs say, and I would love if the specs were conservative. That in the end is what we all want, something rated conservatively. To know we can push things to the specs and have it come down in one piece and not be so hot it burns up.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#10
I disagree. I believe that these parts are rated conservatively and I just have no intention of pushing beyond that conservative spec.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#11
I disagree. I believe that these parts are rated conservatively and I just have no intention of pushing beyond that conservative spec.
I was unclear. What I was getting at is too often you have a motor rated at 1800w continuous, and if you prop up so a ground static test on a fresh battery comes to 1800w the motor will either burn up or come down ridiculously hot after a normal flight. Not all manufacturers over spec, but often turnigy and E-Flite do. The xpwr motor I will running in a few days is pretty honest on specs. They say it is rated for 6000W 30sec burst. And elude to a 4500W continuous rating. But state if you draw 6000w continuous, you will burn up the motor.
So still looking forward to trying the radials! A low cost motor in the 10-20cc sized range that lasts a bit is perfect for those big seaducks!
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#12
Went out to the field this morning armed with props and a fish scale. Testing consisted of bolting on a prop with a fresh battery and the tail hooked through a loop in a rope that was hooked to my anchored fish scale. All data is from static thrust (in pounds) and NOT flying. The results were fairly interesting. I've been flying the Sukhoi on the 16x8 and from the data decided to fly in the JXF 16x6. Good maneuverability and flight characteristics but overall speed was lacking as the size would suggest. I was also surprised that the FMS prop fit the shaft. The hubs on those scale props are thick and could not get it to fit on my Hangar 9 Jug's prop shaft. Hope this helps you all take a more serious look at these motors.
Prop Data.PNG
 

SlingShot

Maneuvering With Purpose
#13
With my review completed I wanted to start an open area to discuss all things monster radial. Feel free to ask questions. There are others in the FT community who are also beta testing these but so much good news for those wanting to wet their appetite before they are released.
Good stuff. And nice flying. I like the crisply executed vertical turnarounds. When would you say is the prime swap meet time? I really like your $60 airframe.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#14
Depends on the locale but I would say a few months before flying season really starts. People are cleaning out what they don’t want and others are realizing that their winter builds will not be finished for one reason or another.
 
#15
I am really looking forward to this motor. I haven't done anything much larger that a C pack since I got back into the hobby. I would love to get into stuff the size I had during my nitro days. The wife might not like it but I would.

I have a Saito 80 powered GP Ultimate Bipe and would love something similar in electric.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#16
Yeah, this motor really is a good option for electric conversions. I'm still trying to figure out how to possibly run a BIG prop on 4S but I'm just not sure there will be sufficient thrust and speed for a heavier model. I've got my ESM Dauntless in mind for this. At around 14 pounds, she needs some gusto. I did a thrust test on my Giant P6-E. I flown the dauntless on that power setup. It uses a 5055 SK3 320kv motor, 18x12 prop on 6S. Thrust gave me only 8 pounds static. I'm sure the prop is stalling on the ground but I still have my concerns running a 4S on a 22x10 prop.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#17
Yeah, this motor really is a good option for electric conversions. I'm still trying to figure out how to possibly run a BIG prop on 4S but I'm just not sure there will be sufficient thrust and speed for a heavier model. I've got my ESM Dauntless in mind for this. At around 14 pounds, she needs some gusto. I did a thrust test on my Giant P6-E. I flown the dauntless on that power setup. It uses a 5055 SK3 320kv motor, 18x12 prop on 6S. Thrust gave me only 8 pounds static. I'm sure the prop is stalling on the ground but I still have my concerns running a 4S on a 22x10 prop.
Once you get into 22x10 prop you are in the 50cc class. Typically 12s. And way out of the area of reasonably priced. I have a Pitts model 12 70" wingspan with an xpwr 60 turning a 24x10 prop hitting 6000w. It would fly great on a 4500w motor turning a 22x10 as well! Both would be 12s. 16lb model
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#18
I am really looking forward to this motor. I haven't done anything much larger that a C pack since I got back into the hobby. I would love to get into stuff the size I had during my nitro days. The wife might not like it but I would.

I have a Saito 80 powered GP Ultimate Bipe and would love something similar in electric.
Similar power to an 80 glow would be about 2700w on 6s turning a 19x8 prop. Good match for a 55 to 60 inch ultimate bipe. Motrofly and turnigy make motors that will match. Rule of thumb for 3d planes is 250-300w per lb.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
#19
Once you get into 22x10 prop you are in the 50cc class. Typically 12s. And way out of the area of reasonably priced. I have a Pitts model 12 70" wingspan with an xpwr 60 turning a 24x10 prop hitting 6000w. It would fly great on a 4500w motor turning a 22x10 as well! Both would be 12s. 16lb model
Similar power to an 80 glow would be about 2700w on 6s turning a 19x8 prop. Good match for a 55 to 60 inch ultimate bipe. Motrofly and turnigy make motors that will match. Rule of thumb for 3d planes is 250-300w per lb.
Again, I am going to disagree with you. Prop size does not ever determine class. Power is power. I equate this to cars using different tires. You could use a wider tire with a less sticky compound or a thinner tire with a more sticky compound. The power of the engine is the same but the way you apply the power is very different.

A great example is my Old O1 Tummelisa. Part of my scale approach is to swing a scale size prop. To do this I used a 16" prop, 16x6 to be exact. Now, TECHNICALLY according to your premise, this would be a 60-size aircraft. However the airplane was only 5 pounds and a WWI era which would only need around 100W/pound. So, I used a .25 size motor to swing that prop. This meant I had to power it using a 3S pack. I still got to 500W but because of the size of the prop, I had GOBS of thrust, which is what you want in a WWI era airplane, not speed. Just because the manufacturer stated specs for a 4S pack this does not mean you HAVE to power it that way.

Another great example is my Giant Curtis P6-E. I uses a 5055 320kv motor on a 18x12 prop. The airplane is about 15 pounds. According to your logic I should then be on at least a 10S setup but because of the prop size, I'm using a 6S setup and she does just fine. Knife edges are effortless as well as loops and other maneuvers.

Finally, I really disagree with you in you power estimate for a 3D airplane. Watts/pound is never a good rule of thumb on it's own. While it may be a good starting place, you also need to factor thrust. Example: Pylon racers. They too are in that power range but the way they transfer that power is by FAR very different than 3D flying. EF-1 pylon racing specifies very specific motors with a standard prop on aircraft that are all within a similar size and weight... roughly 260W/pound.

So, getting back to my specific application on the Dauntless. As previously stated, I've flown her on the same motor, ESC, and prop combo as the P6-E... About 1400W. That amount of POWER is well within the capability of the FT Monster Radial. I now need to prop the motor accordingly and use the right amount of cells to get there. Clearly 6 cells is not the answer however 4 or 5 may be the ticket... on the right prop and I really want a 3-blade for it as that would be scale.
 

Headbang

Well-known member
#20
It was less about logic and more about the norm of what I have and see as I do the event circuits. 250-300w per lb on 3d has worked for me very well when choosing motors on my rather large 3d plane fleet. But each to their own. The cell count was once again based on my own fleet and observations as I go, not a rule or logic, just a general observation of the norm. Talk about an ultimate bipe, edge, Pitts model 12 or challenger, slick, ars300, or laser 3d airframe, I am on the money, talk about a scale or war plane, it all changes. 22 electric planes in my hangar, been flying electric since the late 80's. What I state works for me. But as I said, each to their own.