FTFF East 2017 International Air Races: Rules and Registration

[CrashRecovery]

Ok I'll chime in since I've been part of the safety team since Flite Fest started. First this is not a sanctioned event so following certain rules to the letter is pointless. Second is the whole point of Flite Fest is to have fun. Legal has nothing to do with this, because if you think about it the liability aspect of the whole event is off the charts. The number of rookies in the air also is also mute point because I can tell you there is at least 15 noobs in the air at any given time at flite fest. The group that is putting this together has been running little events at FTFF every year. We know what works, and what doesn't.
I will tell you this, If you are looking at this race this hard and being this specific, you are going to miss the whole point of FTFF and the races. Nothing is ever set in stone, planes crash in some of the most spectacular ways I have ever seen, everyone is your friend even if you kill their $700 3D heli. This event is designed to be fun. As one of the Safety Team Leads, I can tell you that I have been in contact with wilsonman about this event, how to keep it safe and enjoyable at the same time. The little safety issues we had last year will NOT be repeating this year, you have my word on that!

 

[SlingShot]

Ok I'll chime in since I've been part of the safety team since Flite Fest started. First this is not a sanctioned event so following certain rules to the letter is pointless. Second is the whole point of Flite Fest is to have fun. Legal has nothing to do with this, because if you think about it the liability aspect of the whole event is off the charts. The number of rookies in the air also is also mute point because I can tell you there is at least 15 noobs in the air at any given time at flite fest. The group that is putting this together has been running little events at FTFF every year. We know what works, and what doesn't.
I will tell you this, If you are looking at this race this hard and being this specific, you are going to miss the whole point of FTFF and the races. Nothing is ever set in stone, planes crash in some of the most spectacular ways I have ever seen, everyone is your friend even if you kill their $700 3D heli. This event is designed to be fun. As one of the Safety Team Leads, I can tell you that I have been in contact with wilsonman about this event, how to keep it safe and enjoyable at the same time. The little safety issues we had last year will NOT be repeating this year, you have my word on that!

The following is from the Flite Fest FAQ:

"Will this be an AMA insured Event?

Yes, it will be necessary for the event to be insured and safe. This will be an AMA event and we will be observing all AMA safety codes during the event. An AMA License will be mandatory for all pilots. This will be checked at registration, where pilot badges will be issued for the event. Current MAAC Canadian Memberships will also be honored. If you haven’t already, you will need to join or renew your AMA license before the event:"

Are you saying that this race, with these rules and 4x the maximum allowable planes in a HEAT is going to fall within the umbrella of AMA insurance?

And BTW, I never said anything about a sanctioned racing event. There's no knitpicking here. My concerns have to do with basic safety. What we are talking about here is basic common sense. Little more. And until now, I've pretty much limited my thoughts to common practices and facts. Now my opinion.

I am officially saddened and dismayed at this pushback. Vacuum or not, there doesn't seem to be a racer in the mix. There's certainly no attorney present. If this activity proceeds as proposed, and God forbid somebody gets drilled, it would likely be viewed as recklessness. Perhaps even knowing disregard of a known danger (40+ years of people going around pylons. You ignore experience at your own peril). Not a whoopsy daisy accident. There's a big difference. Check with legal. PLEASE!

Insurance is not a license to act recklessly. The only thing I keep hearing are attempts to create some sort of exception. It doesn't exist. I've not heard a single word about how safe this is going to be. I did hear "liability off the charts". But of course, I already knew that. Please act prudently.

 

[CrashRecovery]

I'm not fighting with you over this. Trying to be overly structured at a massively flexible event designed for fun honestly IMO will ruin the intent of this side event. Even multigt races at ftff are only structured so nobody kills someone's fpv feed.
Do combat sessions fall under AMA rules, not really but must events have them. Night Flying, most definitely not but most events allow it because it's done in a safe manner.
Like it's been said, your comments have been noted and taken into consideration. I'm sure FT will have the final say on the rules.

 

[SlingShot]

I'm not fighting with you over this. Trying to be overly structured at a massively flexible event designed for fun honestly IMO will ruin the intent of this side event. Even multigt races at ftff are only structured so nobody kills someone's fpv feed.
Do combat sessions fall under AMA rules, not really but must events have them. Night Flying, most definitely not but most events allow it because it's done in a safe manner.
Like it's been said, your comments have been noted and taken into consideration. I'm sure FT will have the final say on the rules.

Thank you. There is a fundamental difference in having a lot of planes in front of you, as opposed to circling the participants of a pylon race. Please adopt approved safe practices. As a practical matter, I remember at age 14-15 feeling a little uneasy about having three of them I couldn't see buzzing around me. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have 14 of them.

 

[SlingShot]

Slingshot,

This has never been planned as an AMA sanctioned race, nor will it be.

You've voiced your opinions and suggestions about the rules, as have others, and where they've made sense the suggestions have been considered. These rules have not been created in a vacuum.


Like or dislike the rules, you're just as welcome to participate as not.

My active participation is ENTIRELY on hold pending resolution of the format. I think it would likely be statistically more dangerous than rock climbing or skydiving. As it currently stands, I would limit myself to auxiliary race day first aid volunteer. I do however, remain cautiously optimistic that cooler heads will prevail.

And to be perfectly clear, I'm not really trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm saying "there's a big nest of rattlesnakes there boys." I'm just the first one to see them. Y'all will see 'em soon enough. And they are most definitely rattlesnakes. I just hope they show themselves before race day. Get out in the pits somewhere. That'll help ya to spot 'em.

Does this help? AMA rules paraphrasing here, 1) Don't fly recklessly? and 2 ) Don't fly BEHIND the flight line? The concept that the three pylon race is a noted exception to rule 2? The further idea that 4 planes is an acceptable risk.....IF done properly? That's about the best I can do.

 

[Craftydan]

Slingshot,

Your concerns, Hyperbole or not, have been noted.

Like or dislike the rules, you're just as welcome to participate as not.

 

[SlingShot]

There IS some good news. There is a simple solution. As I see it there are just three simple changes that need to be made to put you in general compliance:

1) Get rid of the annoying tattle-tale, musical chair "spotter". Pilot chooses his teammate caller as its always been.

2) Forgot about the low altitude limbo nonsense. Racing is hard enough and that crap normally earns a warning when you fly below the top of the pylon.

3) The hardest of all. Heats of no more than 4.

Now, having said that, there might be an argument to be made for doing some of that crazy Hollywood stuff with a 2 pylon config. It certainly appears to be safer. But the rules for racing say no more than 4. <shrug> Not my call. I just wanted to point out the snakes.

Huh......for that matter, if everything were out in front of the flight line. If it were a "simulation"... You could have three pylons if you wanted and you could fly around them anyway you wanted. There would be no behind the flight line violation.

 

[SlingShot]

Slingshot,

Your concerns, Hyperbole or not, have been noted.

Like or dislike the rules, you're just as welcome to participate as not.

Thanks. I guess. But I assure you there's no hyperbole. I expect it to end up academic. I'm not saying death or serious injury is inevitable. What I am saying is:

1) the insurance company ain't signing on to this level of risk. Not without a special rider anyways. And I have to think the cost would be prohibitive. But possible I suppose.

2) I'm willing to take the risk of 3 airplanes drilling me in the back. That's where I draw the line. I would not want to be part of a target rich environment with an excess of threats.

and,

3) first aid helper: I would be a hypocrite to take any part in operations, (as well as opening my own self up to liability). I would not be in the "circle" as I have already stated. Similar to a conscientious objector, first aid is the only way I really could help. The big difference being that rather than reluctance to kill another human being, my reason would be my reluctance to being drilled. Or drilling somebody else.

 

[willsonman]

To clarify a couple of points...

During the races (not exhibition flight) the entire flight line will be shut down, much like the massive combat or world record attempt from previous years. The world record attempt had 300 airplanes with pilots AND spotters.

In a fairly recent Community cast podcast, I stated that heats will be determined by the number of participants... this is why pre-registration is going on.

The pylon course will be AT LEAST 300 feet from the main flight line. Further if the event constraints allow. That is more than what the NMPRA recommends for models of this relative size.

Again, Flite Fest is an AMA sactioned open-fly event and this is NOT an official pylon racing event. It is a fun open-fly event for anyone to participate.

I also want to note that while I typically fly model quite a bit larger than the average person at FF (76" on average), safe flying can be done if forethought and effective communication take place. That is precisely what we are doing now. I flew my giant-scale P6-E hawk along side Laine from Laine's Planes flying a 26" 'Cuda doing 120MPH. This, along with many others at the flight line. Laine and I were very good to be aware of our model's differences and communicated well to call our intentions and have safe and successful flights. I have no doubt that the pre-race safety briefings, along with overall increased safety awareness at this year's event, will lend itself to a very safe and fun open-fly event.

 

[SlingShot]

To clarify a couple of points...

During the races (not exhibition flight) the entire flight line will be shut down, much like the massive combat or world record attempt from previous years. The world record attempt had 300 airplanes with pilots AND spotters.

In a fairly recent Community cast podcast, I stated that heats will be determined by the number of participants... this is why pre-registration is going on.

The pylon course will be AT LEAST 300 feet from the main flight line. Further if the event constraints allow. That is more than what the NMPRA recommends for models of this relative size.

Again, Flite Fest is an AMA sactioned open-fly event and this is NOT an official pylon racing event. It is a fun open-fly event for anyone to participate.

I also want to note that while I typically fly model quite a bit larger than the average person at FF (76" on average), safe flying can be done if forethought and effective communication take place. That is precisely what we are doing now. I flew my giant-scale P6-E hawk along side Laine from Laine's Planes flying a 26" 'Cuda doing 120MPH. This, along with many others at the flight line. Laine and I were very good to be aware of our model's differences and communicated well to call our intentions and have safe and successful flights. I have no doubt that the pre-race safety briefings, along with overall increased safety awareness at this year's event, will lend itself to a very safe and fun open-fly event.

That all sounds great. Please understand that you are arguing facts in a way that doesn't address the issue. The issue is, if you have guys flying around pylons AND themselves, that is pylon racing and it doesn't matter the least bit of difference for someone to claim "we're not really trying that hard, and we're not even keeping score good". Therefore we are not racing and the rules don't apply. If you are quacking like a duck and looking like a duck, you is a duck. You can call yourself a sheepdog if you want to, but it doesn't change the character of what you are. This is no different than saying, "Racing? Hehe no judge! We weren't racing, we were just driving real fast in a circle. With a bunch of other cars." It doesn't fly. Even the jailhouse lawyers laugh at that one.

Insisting that it's NOT an official pylon racing event is equally meaningless. For the same reason. Still a duck.

Now I agree that it sounds real safe and all for the spectators. The problem as I see it lies mostly with the participants. Those within the circle. Those are the ones in need of protection. Dangerous. Very different situation as it is an exception to the rule of don't fly behind the flight line. In this case it's sort of an extended special flight line for the pit area. Those guys are exposed to behind the back airplanes. Therein lies the problem And there would be NO insurance coverage. IMO. Whether it's an official race or not, the official rules should be used as your model. Any material deviation from established procedures is a minefield, and if you insist on going in there without a mine detector you are going to blow-up.

I'm done now I think. I have pointed out the snakes and I am not interested in any fruitless exercises in hair-splitting. I have been in racing a little and I have seen it up close. As an additional matter, these poor guys are going to be nervous wrecks as it is, and there is absolutely no reason to up the difficulty factor. The Indianapolis 500 seems to do pretty well without ramps and loops.

As it stands now, there is no way this will pass muster. But it's easily fixed. I am encouraged by the mention of heats. As long as they were limited to no more than 4 planes, 90% of the problem would disappear. As a practical matter, and this is just me speculating, I would have to think that the subset of scratch builders, willing to build scratch, experimental SCALE aircraft and then wanting to race them would be pretty small. 8 planes total? 12 max?

To recap: racing is racing, and so no matter how "official" or "unofficial" it is, it should be treated like racing. That's the way the insurance company is going to see it.

On the subject of the weird stuff, how come no gymkhana events? Egg drop, carrier landings, inverted balloon bust? Used to love that stuff.

 

[FAI-F1D]

I do have a legitimate rules question: what's this limbo business? I don't do limbo.

Moving on... SlingShot, your comments have begun going in circles, no pun intended. You clearly do not grasp the concept of Flite Fest, nor have you apparently had exposure to much higher risk activities sanctioned by the FAI. Have you ever been on a field with 20 modern F1C's being flown? Perhaps, just perhaps, the idea of a non-RC model pile driving into the flightline at 150 mph less than 3 seconds after launch is a little higher risk than this event. Just perhaps.

If you don't like how this event is being run, don't participate. There was an opportunity last year to comment on these rules and procedures, and many people like me were given plenty of opportunity to have input into these rules. Perhaps it's a little prideful of me to think so, but I definitely had an influence on the design of the race course and safety procedures. That opportunity, however, has come and gone. The event has been created, and the event has been accepted by the whole of the participants.

There is a lesson here: input opportunities are time sensitive. There's a time when it's accepted, and there's a time when it's not. Please don't take this as a direct attack, but the bottom line is that you missed your opportunity window.

We have already had a conversation about your concern about scale models being risked in a race; your linking that concern to the race safety rules has severely damaged your arguement. Some of us in this event have serious competition experience at the very highest levels of aeromodelling competition and understand that competition models, like DTFB models, are 100% disposable. If you don't like the risk, then you shouldn't be flying.

 

[Mid7night]

I want to jump in with a quick "reference check" and then I'm jumping back ....Yes this is a RACE, yes it is around PYLONS, so technically it IS a PYLON RACE. However, given the nature of the design-constraints of the "design-off aircraft"; we will most certainly NOT be flying at traditional "pylon racer" speeds. My SK3 only managed to break 100mph in a dive, downwind, and I'm one of the fastest/sleekest designs entered, aside from the SK4 - and you can bet dollars to donuts that even I won't be maintaining even CLOSE to that around a circuit.

My only point is this: As far as the speed an energy involved, I don't see this event being any more dangerous than ANY of the fun-fly combat events that already happen at Flite Fest. The only difference is we will actually be flying (at least attempting to) in the same direction the whole time, which actually brings DOWN the risk.

 

[Craftydan]

I've seen no limbo or altitude requirement in the rules. There will be no horizontal barrier that you will need to cross under as you would find in a traditional limbo event.

I suppose it's easier for the spotters to see you crossed outside the pylon if you're visually below the pylon's top as you cross, but so long as your spotter can judge you were outside, that's not an issue.

 

[FAI-F1D]

I've seen no limbo or altitude requirement in the rules. There will be no horizontal barrier that you will need to cross under as you would find in a traditional limbo event.

I suppose it's easier for the spotters to see you crossed outside the pylon if you're visually below the pylon's top as you cross, but so long as your spotter can judge you were outside, that's not an issue.

Darn, I had my heart set on flying at 500'!

 

[SlingShot]

All I am asking, is that this race be squared with the insurance coverage. Is that too much to ask? Don't you think it would be absolutely horrible to have an accident that was not covered by insurance? I'm no expert, but it looks pretty bad.

The normal rules require you to stay above the tops of the pylons.

It is my contention that the departure of this race from standard procedures of: (1) number of aircraft in the air; (2) encouraging low flight (limbo remark) and (3) the subversion of the pilot's RIGHT to a caller, are of such character that they would NOT fall within the insurance coverage.

For amateurs, 4 planes is enough, for the "pros" 4 planes is enough. The insurance pays for 4 planes. How is it materially different here? Why do WE get to race with 14? What makes us special?

BTW, I believe Quickie 25 has 100 mph speed limit.

 

[FAI-F1D]

All I am asking, is that this race be squared with the insurance coverage. Is that too much to ask? Don't you think it would be absolutely horrible to have an accident that was not covered by insurance? I'm no expert, but it looks pretty bad.

Does Mac square the shenanigans at SEFF with insurance?

What about the turbine accidents at Joe Nall? I've seen major carnage there with lethally fast aircraft.

Three times in a combination of public and private correspondence I've mentioned F1C and you have yet to respond to that issue. Either you have no clue what F1C is, in which case your knowledge of high performance flying events comes into question, or your are refusing to comment because you know full well that it's the trump card that I've learned it to be. It is a fully insurance covered event, period.

 

[SlingShot]

Three times in a combination of public and private correspondence I've mentioned F1C and you have yet to respond to that issue.

I apologize what is the point of mentioning F1C? Is that to say it's much faster than we are, therefore we're OK?

 

[SlingShot]

Pylon racing has the planes going around the participants. I believe all of these high speed things referred to are in front of flight line correct?

Apples and oranges. The act of circling the participants with the planes is a fundamentally different activity. What I'm saying is, when you engage in this fundamentally different activity of circling the participants, you have new liability rules, and you better make sure you are doing it correctly.

 

[SlingShot]

We have already had a conversation about your concern about scale models being risked in a race; your linking that concern to the race safety rules has severely damaged your arguement.

As a matter of housekeeping, there was never any linking. The scale model thing was purely opinion and had to do with participation and accessibility. I personally felt that the intersection of scratch scale building and racing was very exclusionary. The two things are and always were, entirely separate.

 

[FAI-F1D]

I apologize what is the point of mentioning F1C? Is that to say it's much faster than we are, therefore we're OK?

And there you've made my point. Look, this isn't a complete dismissal, but you just made it very clear that your competitive flying is limited to pylon racing, or at minimum, a limited range of R/C competition. F1C is not R/C. It is free flight. It is FAI specified and AMA sanctioned just like any other top end aeromodelling event. We could extend that to control line, spacemodelling, or whatever you want to go into. Bottom line is that your perspective is tunnel visioned by your having only seen one way to run a pylon race and your lack of exposure to extremely high risk activities which consistently receive AMA insurance (or shall we bring NAR stuff into play where people are standing 5 ft from a 5 ft span rocket glider as it launches?).

If you want a point relative to your above statement, it's this: the risk is relative. Safety procedures being implemented at FF produce a personal risk level on par with that seen in competitive flying. That the rest of the flightline will be shut down during the race actually reduces the risk level (take a trip to the AMA Nationals and you'll understand the significance of this issue.

Pylon racing has the planes going around the participants. I believe all of these high speed things referred to are in front of flight line correct?

Apples and oranges. The act of circling the participants with the planes is a fundamentally different activity. What I'm saying is, when you engage in this fundamentally different activity of circling the participants, you have new liability rules, and you better make sure you are doing it correctly.

As opposed to people meandering along through tents as a carbon fiber and steel bullet blasts down at them from above? Been there, done that. I'll take bird buzzing around me in a circle any day of the week.

How many local R/C clubs have had a nitro trainer come through a metal roof? That's plain old sport flying, and frankly much more lethal than these foamboard racers.

As a matter of housekeeping, there was never any linking. The scale model thing was purely opinion and had to do with participation and accessibility. I personally felt that the intersection of scratch scale building and racing was very exclusionary. The two things are and always were, entirely separate.

Well you may perceive it that way, but I don't. It fits a pattern of expressing stacked complaints against the event. When you do that, you damage your message if your real concern really is safety. Not only that, if shows that you have experience with scale models in the context of DTFB construction.