I'm a Noob, Here's my introduction with scratch build pics.

Craftydan

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Richard,

ran across this thread:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702


Had a guestimate formula for stall speed (Vstall in MPH) using wing loading (WL in oz/sqft):

Vstall = SQRT(WL)*3.7

You're still lacking your electronics, payload, and a bit of finishing, but guessing a ~1' cord (close?)x7' span, you're at ~6.3 oz/sqft.

Stall speed guess is just over 9 mph. Not a floater, but launchable at a run.

You might want to add on your motor/ESC/SERVO/LIPO/PAYLOAD weights to the 44oz, to see what your minimum stall speed is pushing (keep in mind, your prop wash will probably help you here).
 

RichardEllis

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So at 9mph or less the plane will drop like a rock? Or does it still hold a glide? I am still new to flight characteristics and physics part for airplanes. I am glad you found out this formula, looks extremely helpful and easy to use and will use it in near future builds as I get better in taking in weight to considerations more when building. I might rebuild this plane, or atleast the main wing and do away with the 1/8" thick by 1-1/8" wide twin spars and use something lighter, I think most of my weight is from that and also the fuselage can be designed better now that I have the angles and dimensions I want I can make a one piece fuselage that folds up box like, like in all the FT scratch build kits design. I also may not need the horizontal tail boom under the tail support. Just some ideas to reduce my construction weight before electronics and servos get installed.

Big question though, I was looking at the hobbyking DT electric motors (light blue ones) and was thinking of getting the DT700's or DT750's KV. Any suggestions or comments on these would be helpful before I purchase. Remember I can only fit up to 8inch prop before it hits the fuselage if mounted on tip of extruding 1/2" booms, if needed I can offset a bracket just in the front to fit up to 11 or 12" prop blades if needed for using the DT style motors.

Also after your comment on launching off runway, I do plan on putting a tail landing gear and 2 up front so thats how I would launch it, don't think I would be throwing this bing thing lol. but I get what you were saying.
 

RichardEllis

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Just had a great idea for lighter design. I can just make the redesigned fuselage single foam board design and extend a 2x2" boom from it and glue the tail unit on top. That would lightened it up a whole lot, most of the wood structure design I need for strength is really in the spars. I wish I could find better materials at Lowe's then the pine wood strips I used. Maybe there is a way to connect multipe aluminum arrow shafts together. I need the main spar to be atleast 36" and the other one towards the aerlons is just for added twist and flex support so it can be shorter.
 

Craftydan

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Richard,

And you're back to tradeoffs. 9, 10, or even 15 mph stall speed is not a death knell, but it might not suit what you want. Your current build can fly, but you're right -- trimming weight can give you slower stable flight, which would better fit your final plans. Higher weight (wing loading), however also lends to better immunity to the wind, so each choice may hurt in one way and help in others.

Either 700 or 750 motors should be ok, but you're probably going to have to move them farther out on the wing to hang the props. For a given pitch, Props will only generate so much thrust for a given length and RPM -- too short of a prop on a big motor, and you'll never get a good efficient power transfer to the air. Check the specs on HK or online to see what props are suggested (might even find thrust measurements by prop size from users).

As for lighter materials, haven't found good ones at the local hardware stores. Aluminum is good, but if you really want to cut weight and keep strength, try hunting, golf, or fishing stores, looking for CF or fiberglass shafts -- or find them online. if you overlap and bind 2-3' shafts with Kevlar or spectra thread and soak in thin CA, you can get some wickedly strong/long/light shafts. CF has higher strength per weight, fiberglass is heavier but much more resilient and flexible. Also, the strength you need can be from tiny diameters from these rods, so don't look so doubtful at that 3/8" rod (or even smaller).

Check around for prices -- it can be super expensive and super cheap. I've found it cheaper sold as an unpurposed material than as a "golf club shaft", but I've seen sales from time to time. Only online place I can recommend offhand is R2 Hobbies out of Taiwan. Shipping is expensive, but the CF is in 3ft lengths and more than cheap enough to make the difference if you buy any fair sized quantity. Plenty of other places sell it and if you find somewhere local, may be worth a few dollars more.

Switching to a single boom has advantages, lighter weight being one, but you loose a lot of twisting strength between the wing and tail. Hard to know how much strength you need until your tail is flopping in the breeze, but if you don't need it, you don't want to overbuild . . .


One last comment (feel free to ignore). You seem to being enjoying the build (a good sign -- if you fly, you'll have to fix), but you're working hard to get that perfect long term plane. By all means, keep working on this -- but perhaps you might want to put an engine, radio, and a small battery on that noob tube and get it flying. I'm enjoying bouncing ideas and seeing the directions you take in the build, but flying and swapping out props/motors/batteries really does help get a feel for the tradeoffs -- what do you get, what does it cost.

Time for me to practice what I preach. Got a build to clean up and get in the air!
 

RichardEllis

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Craftydan your the man. I always enjoy reading your posts. You write so much and their full of great advice. I am in fact going to order the motors and everything I need all at once tonight or tomorrow. I will continue this build for sure, it's really all I focus on during the weekends, from sunrise to sunset I am always now playing with the plane and surfing the web for pictures and ideas, lol. I will have to go to the store and look for simple rods like the ones you mentioned in sporting goods stores. I do understand the removing the wood booms and losing weight and some strength to be prone to twist. I am going to start working on it right now :)
 

Craftydan

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Richard,

Aww, gee, shucks. Keep that up and I'm gonna get a big head . . .

Frankly your eagerness to get elbows deep into it encourages me. I'm more a think then ponder some more kinda guy, and getting started changing idea to real is always the hardest step for me. Got a few coworkers like you and I can help them troubleshoot/refine while they help me engage. Working with them makes the day job a pleasure -- a lot like this thread.

Good luck in your hunt for, well, hunting supplies.
 

RichardEllis

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Thanks Dan. Glad it encourages you and helps me out and others. My wife kinda doesn't agree with my new hobby though lol, she said first it was kayaking, then building your car, now this...haha. I change interest all the time, but I know this hobby will stay with me, it is cheaper to do and easy to afford the materials.
 

Craftydan

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Yeaaaah . . . I think I resemble that a little too much

I tend to collect hobbies too, like kayaking, hiking, metalworking, paper modeling, and the list goes on (I doubt we're alone in this). One of the things I like about RC aircraft is there are sooo many different aspects. follow one until I'm bored with it, then go follow another, carrying with me what I've learned.

Life balance is a hard one. For the family/hobby balance, I'll mention: Happy Wife, Happy Life. It's not about less nagging (though that comes too), and more about a happy team mate can make the whole team happy ( the reverse of "if momma ain't happy . . . ").

Now for work/hobby balance while you've got a new design swirling in your head . . . when you figure that one out, let me know.

Now back to build talk! Any progress?
 

RichardEllis

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Totally well said about wife/hobby balance lol. As far as progress I took a break from that 7' beast. I did however improve the weak balsa design on my RQ-11 and added ailerons. Also did the rear tail wing sections in foam board "Elmers brand" which I think is a stronger foam board brand while being slightly heavier then "Adams brand" foam board. I wish I knew how to keep the dihedral original design and learn how to make dihedral with foam board, will research that now. Will take some pictures and post them.
 

RichardEllis

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100_0741 (2).JPG 100_0741.JPG 100_0743.JPG 100_0744.JPG
 

RichardEllis

New member
Okay once again I changed my designed wing. I went Dihedral (12degrees) on this one to maintain the original design and flight characteristics yet improving strength greatly and adding 3" to new wing span of now 60". Everything is all taped (packing tape) and comes out to 777grams without electronics (+100g) heavier then original balsa design. Thought the exposed bolts on top looked too tacky so I designed a hatch to access them.[/ATTACH] 100_0746.JPG 100_0747.JPG 100_0748.JPG 100_0749.JPG 100_0750.JPG 100_0751.JPG 100_0752.JPG
 

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Craftydan

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Got a nice look there with the polyhedrial -- should give you a nice stable platform to play with. How does the span compare to the balsa one (dimensionally)?

Yeah, surprising how light a balsa & film construction can be, but the weight penalty you've paid should pay back in resiliency. A good layer of extreme tape on the edge, and it should take any light hits you get into. Add a small fiberglass rod, and it might even take a big one.

I take it the power system is en route?
 

RichardEllis

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Ya I will have to measure the difference in new dimensions, the problem the packaging is all in metric mm and I know my wing is in inches so will have to do some math or just physically measure old wing with tape measure. As far as tape, I did use it but I still have yet to find that extreme fiberglass strand tape. I could add the fiberglass rod too, great idea! (your too knowlegeable..Lol). I plan on buying everything on the 1st (military paid every 1st/15th of month). Getting a turnigy DX9, heard good reviews on it. It kinda sucks that hobbyking has alot of things on back order :( I'm using my $500ish clothing allowance I get every once a year for this new hobby, lol.
 

Craftydan

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So long as we don't hear stories of nekkid soldiers using drones to take the enemy by surprise ;)

Someone else's suggestion that has paid off for me. I've found fiberglass rod in small lengths at my local dollar tree -- sold in a Dreamworks kite kit (kungfu panda, madagasscar . . .). Nicer kites sold as overstock (Dollar tree, biglots, Tuesday morning) are great sources of thin fiberglass or carbon fiber -- just so long as the spars aren't wood. At full price, buying a kite for scrap is a bit much, but for $1-2 on overstock it's a steal.

I've found Extreme tape locally at office depot or staples. Even found it at a local grocery store, but the chain doesn't stretch out to Texas. Pricy, but can take a beating!

a Google cheat I've found recently -- if I type in "12m in in" into Google, it recognizes it's a conversion and pops up a little converter just before the results -- can even change the numbers and units. just keep it to same type of units (volume, lenght, weight), and it'll pop up.
 

quorneng

Master member
Very nice
A pylon/pusher configuration works very well.
The thrust line is high so no down thrust is needed but on the down side the CofG is low so the plane tends to 'dip' a bit when you open the throttle quickly.
The elevator and rudder are directly in the slip stream and relatively close to the prop so are very effective when the motor is on.
The benefit of a fully protected prop should not be under estimated. Belly landings (and take-offs if you have the power!) are simple.
This is one on my 40" pushers built up from sheet foam.
LightWD.JPG

My only comment is you might be a bit short on the tailplane/fin. It looks a bit small for the size of your wing and the length of boom you are using.
 

RichardEllis

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Hey quorneng, nice plane. I like how you tapered it, glad to see someone else post pics on here, hope to see more scratch builds. If you have any other angles of pictures please post.
Very nice
A pylon/pusher configuration works very well.
The thrust line is high so no down thrust is needed but on the down side the CofG is low so the plane tends to 'dip' a bit when you open the throttle quickly.
The elevator and rudder are directly in the slip stream and relatively close to the prop so are very effective when the motor is on.
The benefit of a fully protected prop should not be under estimated. Belly landings (and take-offs if you have the power!) are simple.
This is one on my 40" pushers built up from sheet foam.
View attachment 12098

My only comment is you might be a bit short on the tailplane/fin. It looks a bit small for the size of your wing and the length of boom you are using.
 

RichardEllis

New member
So long as we don't hear stories of nekkid soldiers using drones to take the enemy by surprise ;)

Someone else's suggestion that has paid off for me. I've found fiberglass rod in small lengths at my local dollar tree -- sold in a Dreamworks kite kit (kungfu panda, madagasscar . . .). Nicer kites sold as overstock (Dollar tree, biglots, Tuesday morning) are great sources of thin fiberglass or carbon fiber -- just so long as the spars aren't wood. At full price, buying a kite for scrap is a bit much, but for $1-2 on overstock it's a steal.

I've found Extreme tape locally at office depot or staples. Even found it at a local grocery store, but the chain doesn't stretch out to Texas. Pricy, but can take a beating!

a Google cheat I've found recently -- if I type in "12m in in" into Google, it recognizes it's a conversion and pops up a little converter just before the results -- can even change the numbers and units. just keep it to same type of units (volume, lenght, weight), and it'll pop up.
LMAO, naked soldiers flying planes in war, taliban wouldn't know what to do, they would most definitely take a hesitant shot at a naked soldier, may give us that half second head start to pull the trigger quicker on the enemy...haha. sorry It was really funny. I did see some kites the other day too and thought about that, didn't really look into it though, great idea. Ya I have still yet to go to staples, also need a small notebook for work and page protectors, great reminder to look for tape while i am there.
 

Craftydan

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Yeah was my first thought when you mentioned re-appropriating your clothing fund. About my reaction too.

Ran out today, myself, halfway through lining a leading edge. Annoying to get close to done and have to stop and resupply!
 

RichardEllis

New member
oh ya half way through taping then out, hit that problem too the other day, but had 2 rolls, thank god. Just made a fuselage clone of my RQ11, was bored I guess. It's still a prototype in development. will have to figure out a boom for it, either half inch poplar square wood boom or the heavy pvc. post pics tomorrow, I'm tired and have to go shoot the Barrett .50cal sniper rifle and M110 SASS tomorrow :) I always get excited when we get the funds to have ammo to shoot.