Inq'd Turbo Storch

Inq

Elite member
I was talking about your creation. I love my Storch-like plane, but shes pretty worn. Id like to build an "Inq turbo Storch" for next summer.

If...
  • ... the test pilot lives. Surely you don't want something that causes high-speed wobble. Yeager said he didn't believe in the sound barrier... ;)
  • ... someone who uses PLA would be willing to be a beta tester. I'd imagine most people use PLA and ABS is enough different, I have to make changes. Patience might be involved with that tester.
    • Typically, PLA is more tolerant and will make a better looking print.
    • It will also be heavier in PLA. If the person used the exact same settings, it would still be about 20% heavier. As it stands now... that'd be about 80 grams as compared to the front-end/power pod combination.
    • But @quorneng says (above) he doesn't use vase mode that much except in protected pieces. All hail might bust loose (my words ;)). And if it requires going to 2 walls, you're looking at another 40+ grams.
  • ... there is enough interest. There are a lot of settings different on every piece and just giving out the STL's would probably end in frustration without a write up with pictures. I learned a lot of things during this design and build process and would want to make changes to the design. As they are of no use to me (I don't plan on a second one) I'd want several people to be serious about it before spending another 10 hours or so on (loathsome) paperwork.
If all goes well, I'd gladly set up a forum resource.
 
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Scotto

Elite member
Sure. Im getting pretty comfortable with cura settings. Ive scrapped a lot of less cool things without tears so Id be willing to try it. Also, Im all about the test in flitetest. If its guaranteed to fly right Im not interested.
One important point, my Storch-like plane has about 10 degrees down thrust and I really think its about right with that.
I have a new roll of clear pla that Ive been looking for a reason to open. I also have petg and lwpla if you think I should try that.
 

Inq

Elite member
Had to add a tail wheel...
  1. It's supremely cool to taxi out the planes onto the air strip at the club.
  2. It's required to taxi out the planes at the air strip.
  3. The skid wasn't cutting it. Can turn around to take off. Kind of embarrassing.
  4. Can't have the Turbo Storch dragging a skid. It might slow her down.
PXL_20221216_013632399.jpg
 
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Inq

Elite member
I mentioned above (#21) that I'd do what is required to publish and document them, if there is enough interest. You make the second person that is considering it.

I'm only using a 2212, 1000KV... I designed it to handle up to 43 mm out runner for the real power hungry. Are you using something smaller than a 22xx?
 

FlyerInStyle

Elite member
I mentioned above (#21) that I'd do what is required to publish and document them, if there is enough interest. You make the second person that is considering it.

I'm only using a 2212, 1000KV... I designed it to handle up to 43 mm out runner for the real power hungry. Are you using something smaller than a 22xx?
no, I thought you were using a 35xx. I will use a 2212 1400kv probably
 

Inq

Elite member
no, I thought you were using a 35xx. I will use a 2212 1400kv probably

You're right... I was considering one of those. But someone here on the forum reduced my ignorance ... now I know an ESC can be calibrated. I gained nearly 50% more thrust after doing that. Who knew?... certainly no one at my AMA flying club. Either that or they like the idea of "Fresh Meat" doing a plowing demonstration.

By the way, I'm putting the finishing touches on a spinner... but it's tight fitting on only a 10x4.5 that goes on a 2212, 1000KV. I'm not sure if it'll fit on the 8x6 that typically comes with the 1400KV versions. Also note on the following link and the next couple of posts after that... that show the thrust generated. The 1000 KV is King for slow airplanes. But don't ever say a Turbo Storch is slow in her presence. :sneaky:

https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?threads/diy-motor-dynamometer.71186/#post-736107
 

Scotto

Elite member
Since I wrecked my Storch, I decided it was time to Inq' it. This one is mostly a cosmetic change since I damaged the front-end and needed to do some surgery anyway. I'll be cutting off the front-end, just in front of the wing and replacing it with this.
View attachment 232859

The top will come off for easy access to the motor, ESC and battery replacement. The ESC will be braced with all sides exposed, directly in the airflow of the intake. The simulated Turboprop exhaust are functional in that they should exhaust air from around the motor.

View attachment 232860
I hate that it would hurt the looks of the spinner potentially, but with a big high wing it really needs alot of down thrust angle to trim straight. Unless you mix in down elevator with throttle (just remembered that trick, never tried it.) Maybe a little of both would be best?
 

Inq

Elite member
I hate that it would hurt the looks of the spinner potentially, but with a big high wing it really needs alot of down thrust angle to trim straight. Unless you mix in down elevator with throttle (just remembered that trick, never tried it.) Maybe a little of both would be best?

Hmmm! That's an important point. My first flights with the Storch (non-turbo :LOL:) were way under powered as I had not learned about calibrating the ESC yet. I was producing less than half the planes weight for most of my flights. So the problem you describe might not have been present. Also... I'm such a new pilot, I'm not sure if I would recognized the issues you're describing. I'm not sure I see a way to both make it adjustable AND make it look good on the cowling. We'll have to give it some thought.
 

Inq

Elite member
So... you want to make a Turbo Storch

I'd like to start publishing parts for people that might want to take a stab at making a Turbo Storch. I'll be adding the settings and post processing instructions in this thread. These are not here to be cast in stone, but for people new to 3D printing to learn from me AND for those more expert to say, "Wait a minute... if you do Xxxxx, it'll be better, lighter, faster." - The Million Dollar Man. If you know better, please do.

Baseline - To print these things, you'll need:
  1. A printer that can print 200mm x 200mm x 200mm. Most printers will do at least this. If you have one of these smaller ones, you'll have to know how to cut up STL files.
  2. Use Cura to do the slicing of the STL files. I'll be giving the settings for the newest Cura (5.2.1 as of now.) If you are using pre 5.0, you will need to upgrade. There are some very nice features in 5 that are necessary. If you must use something else, you'll need to find the equivalent settings or "wing it!"
  3. I would greatly appreciate it if you let me know your impressions and give constructive feed-back. This old dog can still be taught. ;)
  4. I design and build using ABS, but a PLA beta tester is on-board to steer me so I don't lead you astray. There are some differences. Although they have similar ultimate strength, PLA is stiffer and more brittle. ABS is softer and tougher. PLA prints cosmetically nicer and should be easier. PLA can be done without an enclosure, ABS must have a heated one. 3DLabPrint successfully sells models and they specify PLA, so I know it can be done. I've made several of the planes, but I've always used ABS on them. Some of the settings below came from 3DLabPrint specifications for PLA.
  5. I'll be adding them one at a time. I can't just puke it out all at once. Be patient. Even though, mine is almost done, I accepted some pieces that needed "help" fitting, adjusting, supplemental pieces or were cosmetically less than I'd like other people to deal with. Some, I'll make adjustments on before publishing. Although, I also have to double check settings I've made and write them up for you. This will also take time.
Let's jump in...
3View.png
 
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FlyerInStyle

Elite member
So... you want to make a Turbo Storch

I'd like to start publishing parts for people that might want to take a stab at making a Turbo Storch. I'll be adding the settings and post processing instructions in this thread. These are not here to be cast in stone, but for people new to 3D printing to learn from me AND for those more expert to say, "Wait a minute... if you do Xxxxx, it'll be better, lighter, faster." - The Million Dollar Man. If you know better, please do.

Baseline - To print these things, you'll need:
  1. A printer that can print 200mm x 200mm x 200mm. Most printers will do at least this. If you have one of these smaller ones, you'll have to know how to cut up STL files.
  2. Use Cura to do the slicing of the STL files. I'll be giving the settings for the newest Cura (5.2.1 as of now.) If you are using pre 5.0, you will need to upgrade. There are some very nice features in 5 that are necessary. If you must use something else, you'll need to find the equivalent settings or "wing it!"
  3. I would greatly appreciate it if you let me know your impressions and give constructive feed-back. This old dog can still be taught. ;)
  4. I design and build using ABS, but a PLA beta tester is on-board to steer me so I don't lead you astray. There are some differences. Although they have similar ultimate strength, PLA is stiffer and more brittle. ABS is softer and tougher. PLA prints cosmetically nicer and should be easier. PLA can be done without an enclosure, ABS must have a heated one. 3DLabPrint successfully sells models and they specify PLA, so I know it can be done. I've made several of the planes, but I've always used ABS on them. Some of the settings below came from 3DLabPrint specifications for PLA.
  5. I'll be adding them one at a time. I can't just puke it out all at once. Be patient. Even though, mine is almost done, I accepted some pieces that needed "help" fitting, adjusting, supplemental pieces or were cosmetically less than I'd like other people to deal with. Some, I'll make adjustments on before publishing. Although, I also have to double check settings I've made and write them up for you. This will also take time.
Let's jump in...
View attachment 232960
you hsould try petg, its stronger than both pla and abs
 
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Inq

Elite member
Part - Cowl 2
Cowl 2.png


Introduction
I tend to be long winded. I ask lots of questions and I assume there are others here that might want to know the why and what for's. I'll label the sections the same throughout (like Introduction) and you'll quickly learn to skip over the parts, if you don't care. I picked Cowl 2 first, because it illustrates more than any other piece the differences of 3D Printing as compared to foam-board design and building. I think the two techniques complement each other very nicely. Imagine trying to make this with foam board. Here you download, make some settings and press Enter and some time (usually lots) later out pops a piece. But you could be doing something else... making the rest of the foam board FT Simple Storch or having dinner with the family. I also picked this one first, because... it just came out beautiful the first time! I didn't have to re-do anything. Shocking!

Background
This is the design philosophy I'm using over-all on the Turbo Storch. I've built several of the 3DLapPrint models and they are very nice. I would recommend them. Cosmetically, 3D printed planes are typically printed such that the span of the wing is printed up and the length of the fuselage is printed up. Unfortunately, the Z direction (up) is the weakest direction. Anyone that has built thin bodied parts on a printer, they ALWAYS break along these layers. In these planes, that's pretty drastic... a hard landing and the whole tail breaks off in a nice clean delamination between print layers. Ask me how I know. :LOL: As a result, these models must be designed with more structure to support that bending of the fuselage or wing. My belief is that they might be made lighter if we adjust that philosophy and use more printing in the printer bed's plane (X/Y). Now, I haven't pushed that limit yet on this Turbo Storch as I'm a beginner pilot and I need a flying tank, so I believe that weight can be trimmed and in future planes, I'll be pushing that limit as my piloting skills improve. None the less, this printed front-end is only 19 grams heavier than the foam-board design it replaces. This Cowl 2 is non-structural. It can be made very thin and as such it is being built vertically and uses Cura's single thickness, Spiralize mode (sometimes called Vase mode). In this mode the head is never lifted off the print nor moved without printing. It is always squirting plastic and thus it spirals its way up the print. This print weighs less than 11 grams in ABS. (We'll get you a reading in PLA once its made.)
1671280916255.png


Printer Settings
These are the primary setting necessary for this print. By all means use them or don't. It's just what I used. All printers are different and you might have zero'd in values on some aspect or another. Share with us you opinions. I believe they are the only settings that are different than the defaults.
  • Quality
    • Layer Height = 0.25
    • Initial Layer Height = 0.25
    • Line Width = 0.4
  • Walls
    • Wall Thickness = 0.4
  • Top/Bottom
    • Top/Bottom Thickness = 0.0
  • Material
    • Printing temperature is highly material specific. 3DLabPrint recommends running PLA hotter than normal to give better interlaminar strength. They suggest nozzle = 230°C, bed = 56°C
  • Speed
    • Print Speed - is mostly tied to material used and even printer design. I use 60 mm/s.
  • Cooling
    • Enable Print Cooling - Off. Cosmetically, having it on is better, but 3DLapPrint recommends turning this off to keep more heat in the plastic to cause it to fuse better giving more strength between layers.
  • Support - Off
  • Build Plate Adhesion
    • Type = Brim - to hold the model down since it doesn't have any bottom to it.
    • Brim Width = 5 mm
  • Special Modes
    • Spiralize Outer Contour = On
    • Smooth Spiralized Contours = On
Link to Resource is available at - https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?resources/inqd-turbo-storch-cowl-2.359/
 
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Inq

Elite member
you hsould try petg, its stronger than both pla and abs

In the end - I think everyone should use what they're used to. I'm not trying to sell anyone on ABS. It always seems to start subjective flaming wars. It is a royal pain to use and get a printer tuned to it. But I like it.

I did try one roll of PETG a long time ago. It probably wasn't a very thorough test. I might not have had the settings tuned well though. I did not find it to be any stronger in single wall items. I also found it to gunk up the nozzle having to clean it after every print and long prints it would drop little black turds along the way. Questions though - I vaguely recall some issues, but maybe I wasn't doing it right
  • How do you glue to it? It seemed like everything I tried would break loose even Gorilla glue.
  • Painting seemed like nothing would stick to it. Is there a good paint that stays on it?
  • Sanding was difficult... almost like trying to sand Nylon. Post processing was a problem.
  • Do you have some links to your planes using it? I thing it'd be great to see one in PETG. I don't see any reasons why the STL files can't be used for it if its your preferred material. Go for it. Please share your results.
PLA - I think most people are comfortable with PLA because it is so easy to use. I don't have much experience and why I asked someone to Beta test using it.

ABS - I use ABS because:
  1. ABS was invented sometime just after the wheel. Well characterized and is very widely used - Legos, car bumpers, to many items in every household. Not to mention every plastic model airplane, ship and car ever made. I cut my teeth on Revel models.
  2. It's usually cheaper than any of the others.
  3. Lighter so it goes further per kilogram.
  4. It is very easy to post process
    1. Mechanically - Sands easy, trims easy with knives
    2. Heat - heat gun to bend, soldering iron to shape or trim.
    3. Chemical - Acetone works wonders on it. Vapor smoothing, fusing together with scraps of ABS melted in Acetone. The joints are always stronger than the part. You can make anything from a wash to fill in the layers to a glue of any consistency (actually fusing versus gluing) or as a putty filler to fill in gaps or make other contour additions or changes.
  5. Clean and Easy on printer. Out of 81 kilometers of filament, I've only used 2 nozzles. I've never really needed to clean up after it... unless I get a spaghetti event.
 

quorneng

Master member
Not wishing to alarm but you do have be aware of the styrene released by ABS when it melts. Long term exposure is considered to be carcinogenic.
 
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Inq

Elite member
I've got it together. The translucent is still hard to see on the photos (and even in person) but wanted to get a "before" shot. I think I'll go fly it before I spend a lot of time dressing up the foam board and paint it. That way if I crash and burn, I haven't wasted the paint. ;) The joint to the foam-board is great considering I used a hacksaw blade to cut it. It's perfectly flush. A little filler and that joint will probably show less than the tape joint on the hind fuselage. I used Gorilla glue between the lap joint and the foam board and there is no way it'll ever come off. But... I'm not totally happy with the spinner yet, but am debating about it. It needs some love.

1.jpg

2.jpg
 

Inq

Elite member
Not wishing to alarm but you do have be aware of the styrene released by ABS when it melts. Long term exposure is considered to be carcinogenic.

Yes, I know and I do use a ventilated area and thank you for reminding the forum. It is important especially for any children that might get involved with 3D printing. It is also why I'm recommending PLA or what you're used to. If fact, I'll just say it now... don't use ABS.

Edit: Thought you were talking about the Acetone. Most people go non-linear on it first. They make special carbon filter boxes with fans to go inside the Printer Enclosure (and you must have an enclosure) that filter out particles.

I also know every proper southern lady for generations removed their nail polish with it every night and none that I know of got cancer from it. Both my grand mothers and mother used them up till they replaced it with something that doesn't work near as well.
 
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Inq

Elite member
Part - Cowl 3
Cowl 3.png


Introduction
Cowl-3 is the primary load carrying member. All others are just cosmetic. As such, it is printed on the X/Y plane of the printer bed to increase strength in the primary load paths of bending due to pulling G's and axial tension due to motor thrust. This part has been paired away somewhat, but is not nearly optimized for any known load cases. It could tolerate more trimming if weight proves to be an issue. It is relatively thick walled (as compared to the spiralized prints). Its basic shape mimics WW2 airplane engine mounts holding the large water-cooled Merlin, Alison, Mercedes Benz, Juno... type engines. Unlike those, this also includes the body contours in the mid section of the cowling. This print weighs 29 grams in ABS.

1671294170647.png


Printer Settings
These are the primary setting necessary for this print. By all means use them or don't. It's just what I used. All printers are different and you might have zero'd in values on some aspect or another. Share with us you opinions. I believe they are the only settings that are different than the defaults.
  • Quality
    • Layer Height = 0.25
    • Initial Layer Height = 0.25
    • Line Width = 0.4
  • Walls
    • Wall Thickness = 1.2
  • Top/Bottom
    • Top Thickness = 1.0
    • Bottom Thickness = 0.5
    • Top/Bottom Pattern = Concentric
  • Infill
    • Infill Density = 15%
    • Infill Pattern = Cubic - I've found this to be far stiffer than the plain "Grid" pattern.
    • Infill Line Directions = [30]
  • Material
    • Printing temperature is highly material specific. 3DLabPrint recommends running PLA hotter than normal to give better interlaminar strength. They suggest nozzle = 230°C, bed = 56°C
  • Speed
    • Print Speed - is mostly tied to material used and even printer design. I use 60 mm/s.
  • Cooling
    • Enable Print Cooling - Off. Cosmetically, having it on is better, but 3DLapPrint recommends turning this off to keep more heat in the plastic to cause it to fuse better giving more strength between layers.
  • Support - Off
  • Build Plate Adhesion
    • Type = None
  • Special Modes
    • Spiralize Outer Contour = Off
Link to Resource is available at - https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?resources/inqd-turbo-storch-cowl-3.360/
 
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Scotto

Elite member
Hmmm! That's an important point. My first flights with the Storch (non-turbo :LOL:) were way under powered as I had not learned about calibrating the ESC yet. I was producing less than half the planes weight for most of my flights. So the problem you describe might not have been present. Also... I'm such a new pilot, I'm not sure if I would recognized the issues you're describing. I'm not sure I see a way to both make it adjustable AND make it look good on the cowling. We'll have to give it some thought.
If it has no thrust angle right now it would still look great and fly fine on a low wing plane. So save it like that before you go making any changes. But I think 2 to 3 degrees right is normal to counter the "P factor" and the amount of down or up thrust angle depends based on how much drag there is away from the motor in, I guess you could say, the z axis. It will still fly as is but it will pitch up with speed because the drag is up high, and if you trim it to fly level at cruising speed when you cut the throttle it will pitch down. I wouldnt try making the motor mount adjustable.
Looking great! Thanks for all the detailed information.
 

Inq

Elite member
Part - Cowl 1
Cowl 1.png


Introduction
I focused on and printed Cowl-1 first because I felt it was going to be the hardest to CAD up AND to print. It was and is. It has some serious challenges in both categories. I did not want you all to start with this one because, it is the most likely one to cause you troubles printing and I didn't want you to get a bad taste in your mouth right off the bat.

The main technique to make it easier to CAD up is it is a shell body. In other words, there is no inner wall to define the inside of a printed wall. In Cura everything inside is fair game. Which means, you can't use Infill unless you want to fill the whole thing up. Obviously, we don't so we define how many "wall" lines we want in the model. Since this is purely cosmetic, we only want one wall. However, we do want reinforcement at the front ring to keep it nice and round AND we want to have a nice contoured, scale-looking inlet to feed that hungry turbo-prop engine. ;) If you'll note in picture above, the orange coloration above signifies the outside of an STL facet. The green indicates the inside. You'll note the lip rolls over and back into the hole. The fact that Cura was able to handle this as I was hoping surprised me. It is printing a single wall as it comes from the back end toward the front and suddenly sees this inner lip sprout out of nowhere and starts printing an interior wall without requiring any supports. This finally meets back at the front tip. I was hoping for this for future war planes like P-51 and P-38 which are critical to their look.

Another feature of this specific print uses Adaptive Layers. With this feature, Cura notes the slope of the wall from layer to layer... for instance the tops of the exhaust pipes as they merge into the central body. Note in the image below the legend shows the layer thickness varies from 0.15 to 0.33 mm. At the top of the exhaust it is at the minimum while at the top edge (that is near vertical) it is at the maximum layer height.

1671309169144.png


This feature has two advantages. (1) It makes the layers smaller so the printer has a higher resolution and curve is smoother since the steps are smaller. (2) Because the layers are smaller, it helps on shallower overhangs. In other words, where you might only be able to handle 45°-50° overhangs at 0.25 mm thick, you might be able 70° overhangs at 0.1 mm thick.

Post Processing
There is one problem left that I haven't figured a way to help in either the CAD work or the Cura settings. Note at the top of the exhaust pipes. The over hang is approaching the horizontal. The picture below shows the trouble area and experienced people will say, "That won't work, it'll just shoot plastic down inside or it needs supports." Actually, the image isn't quite realistic since the lines in reality are 0.4 mm wide. It actually prints, but it does have gaps in it and almost looks like a screen door when it comes off the printer.
1671310179632.png


For me, it was no big deal... I didn't expect anyone else to want a Turbo Storch. I simply use a piece of masking tape on the inside and use ABS melted in Acetone to the consistency of Elmer glue. I paint it on and fuse into and is the same plastic layer like the printed part. Problem fixed. Now what you all might do using PLA or PETG... I'd sure like to hear your ideas. OR... Do you have CAD or Cura suggestions that I can try. I'm all ears. This print weighs 4 grams in ABS.

Printer Settings
  • Quality
    • Layer Height = 0.25
    • Initial Layer Height = 0.25
    • Line Width = 0.4
  • Walls
    • Wall Thickness = 0.4
  • Top/Bottom
    • Top/Bottom Thickness = 0.0
  • Infill
    • Infill Density = 0%
  • Material
    • Printing temperature is highly material specific. 3DLabPrint recommends running PLA hotter than normal to give better interlaminar strength. They suggest nozzle = 230°C, bed = 56°C
  • Speed
    • Print Speed - is mostly tied to material used and even printer design. I use 60 mm/s.
  • Travel
    • Enable Retraction = On
    • The rest of the setting are very printer specific. My direct drive Prusa uses a retraction distance of only 0.8 mm. It is my understanding that Boden type printers have a much larger retraction distance. Hopefully you have those kind of setting tuned in for your printer.
  • Cooling
    • Enable Print Cooling - Off. Cosmetically, having it on is better, but 3DLapPrint recommends turning this off to keep more heat in the plastic to cause it to fuse better giving more strength between layers.
  • Support - Off
  • Build Plate Adhesion
    • Type = Brim
    • Brim Width = 5 mm
  • Special Modes
    • Spiralize Outer Contour = Off
  • Experimental
    • Adaptive Layers = On
    • Adaptive Layers Maximum Variation = 0.1 mm
    • Adaptive layers Variation Step size = 0.01 mm
Link to Resource is available at - https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?resources/inqd-turbo-storch-cowl-1.361/
 
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