Make a stand on drone laws

[Maue]

I'm tired of hearing on the news that there trying to make laws on banning the "drones" themselfs. Sence when do we let people sit back and place all responsibility on a peace of equipment. A drone crashes into a crowd and harms three people. News said it's the drones fault. "Pilot" said it's the drones fault. Manufacter sais its a defective product.

My real point is when are we as responsible pilots going to make a stand and place the responsibility Soly on the pilots heads. The drone doesn't take its self out of the box and fly away on its own.

I propose that instead of registration of aircraft we make a movement to license rc Pilots. I'm not talking about ama. Im talking about a real license. Something to protect arselfs from the people who go to best buy and buy a FPV drone not knowing or caring that its flys off Bluetooth and when they fly it out of range or in a CROUD OF PEOPLE who probaly have cell phones with Bluetooth turned on well if you know what's at stake you probably wudent do that.

I'm closing out this comment with an example.
We all know guns are a much more dangerous tools than drones. But we don't hafto register them. No I believe we do the smarter thing we register people who have gone threw traning and want to carry them ligaly

I apologize for any gramer mistakes I am un able to fix them at this time
Don't let them make us register are "toys"

 

[ZoomNBoom]

What you're suggesting potentially sounds more invasive than registering a drone. The thing with licenses is, they can be taken away. Ask Bruce (rcmodelreviews).

We've not yet seen the new rules, but rumor mill has it, it only applies for drones in excess of 4lbs. If the process then is as simple as filling out a form (online) and getting an aircraft registration number you have to paint or somehow apply to it, is that really something to get upset about?

I understand a lot of people hate government, but no one who loves the hobby can be in favor of a handful of idiots flying large drones in dangerous places, with no practical way to identify or sanction them. We'll have to see how its implemented, but a registration procedure could well be a simple and reasonably effective first step towards solving this problem.

 

[razor02097]

While registering the equipment sounds good on paper there will be a lot of people not in compliance simply because they don't know. Heck if I didn't belong to a forum right now I would have no idea that the FAA is all hot to trot in making regulations with this hobby. How would I? Most of the local politicians and police have never even seen a multi-rotor let alone enforcing any registration laws that could pass in the future.

The fear that the media has instilled in the general public is irreversible. We hobbyists just don't have the reach they do. The people that aren't in the hobby are the ones that will end up regulating it.

Ideally a unique identifier or some sort of geofencing would be a perfect solution but who maintains the database? If they pass legislation to register a 4lb craft what is to stop them from revising it to include a 3.5lb craft...or 3...or 2? One of the main reasons you get so much push back from the gun community about registering firearms is ANY law that passes no matter how much they tote it is "common sense" is a foot in the door to confiscation. That isn't from me. That is from the community.


I get it. We need to make pilots accountable for their actions. But the more government gets involved, the more headaches the responsible pilots will have. Laws like that won't catch the idiots since they won't register or get licensed anyway. But they will provide many new avenues of "gotchas" to fine everyone else.

 

[FAI-F1D]

Why don't we just enforce the laws that have been on the books for years? Reckless endangerment is the catch-all for severe cases of misuse of anything that flies. Enforce it when it needs to be enforced and leave everyone else alone.

The licensure of "drones" is nothing more than a tax on commercial operations. The government wants more money and more power, plain and simple.

 

[ZoomNBoom]

Why don't we just enforce the laws that have been on the books for years?

How did you plan to ID a drone, especially one flown beyond visual range? Thats the point here, enforcement is almost impossible. I could fly my DJI inspire over JFK airport, and chances of me getting caught are pretty much nihil, even if I crash there or someone shoots my drone down.

Registration will not change all of that, its no silver bullet, if I had malicious intentions, I could fly without registration, but at least the non malicious idiots with registration have a chance of getting caught in the air, and the malicious ones deliberately flying without or with fake registration if they get caught on the ground. Its just like a license plates on a car.

 

[Maue]

Thank you for discussing this I was begging to deal like nobody who is in the Hoby was wanting to take sides and the we are all just sitting back and letting whatever happen. I apologize for the sum what abrupt nature of my original post. I was intending to bring the issue up in a way that will bring around a discussion on what we can do to protect the Hoby. I cannot pretend that I am following the politics in this and am talking as an average pilot. One of the people who feel like this is about to becom a major obstacle. Again thank you for showing that there are people out there who are paying attention

 

[AkimboGlueGuns]

I feel this entire debacle can be summarized with one picture.

 

[FAI-F1D]

I feel this entire debacle can be summarized with one picture.

View attachment 56369

Absolutely brilliant! Bravo!

 

[willsonman]

The issue is registration... not licensing. The above picture makes a point but not one that is applicable here.

When was the last time you registered an appliance? Registered a tool? There are product registrations that exist already and that system already fails abhorrently. While I support the AMA stance on this, it is something that should already be in place by participants here on these pages. Having your AMA number, name, address, or other contact information is part of the LAWS of the AMA. I do not need to tell the AMA about all the aircraft I have because there is traceable accountability in the craft already. This is a pointless use of time and resources because those who are already breaking the law will continue to do so.

This seems more like locks on your car. The locks will keep honest people out. Real thieves will not be deterred. Lazy people will continue to be lazy unless there is a simple method to comply. Computer software is a better example more akin to a car alarm. Install the software and by agreeing to the EULA you are accountable. Registration takes seconds over the internet and is typically automatic as part of installation. But like car locks, there are still thieves in the software world. The lesson? This solves nothing. It may be a move in the right direction but immediately it just causes mass hysteria and media hype for something trivial.

 

[Julez]

AMA hasn't been proactive enough about it. The FAA is the pied piper in this situation, and everyone follows what they're doing because lawsuits are expensive. Even though this is simply 'registration' of sUA the FAA clearly has no answers for how registration will help solve ANY of the problems. (As evidenced by the Q&A session.) What this newest policy really does is it opens up the doors for the FAA to introduce further policies that bypass completely Public Law 112.

Joshua I think you hit the nail right on the head...

 

[DrDiff]

Curious to see what they do about small 250 sized craft. I believe both of mine are under 4 pounds thus "hopefully" exempt. I do feel for the 500 size 1000 size and DJI guys.

I would like to see the new regulations be discussed on Flite Test.

 

[ratdoghippy]

Requesting the NRA to make this a self defense issue lobby against any legislation

I feel the reason behind the control of RC aircraft, which is how they should be identified as, has a lot to do with with how future weaponry and the weapons we have today are being mixed up with what are doing as a hobby.

The main difference between a "drone" and what we do is a drone is able to fly on its own using GPS satellites to fly a pre programmed course, but also has the ability to fly much higher, much farther, carry much more advanced weapons and cameras.

At some point though the concern of this technology ever being turned on the American people is a real possibility, as we can see already Google Maps and the Patriot act, it already has. Any would be burglar anywhere in the world can go on google maps and see the backyard of anyone's home, and yet they make Rc quad copters out to be the big threat.

Requiring registration is also placing one more tax on us, and why should we be having to pay more money into a already expensive hobby on toys that as we all know we will probably crash in a day or so.

I decided to look at this as a issue of self defense uses, and how registering pilots and their craft can lead to other restriction, I did this when I read a facebook comment saying "gun owner do not have to register their guns but kids with their rc toys do."

I realized this should be a issue for a organization with the ability to lobby against the registration of RC aircraft, and that organization best suited for it is the NRA.

Like them or hate them, at some point this does fall under issues that will involve them, and they have the money to lobby against any laws that over step their boundary's on Rc hobbyist like ourselves.

While altitude restrictions and flying area restrictions are probably a good idea, forcing people to register themselves and their craft is overstepping.

I suggest states provide recreational park just for Rc flying, so people can have a specific place to fly, this will certainly be a way to prevent accidents by people looking for places to fly close to airports.

I know I have a hard time finding places to fly, with many open field now becoming housing developments.

I would love a special park, her in Indiana we do have parks, but the laws prevent us from flying at them.

This issue is going to require big money, and all of us not just speaking against regulations but also offering better ideas on what to do.

 

[ratdoghippy]

Offer better ideas ask NRA to lobby against Rc laws

I feel the reason behind the control of RC aircraft, which is how they should be identified as, has a lot to do with with how future weaponry and the weapons we have today are being mixed up with what are doing as a hobby.

The main difference between a "drone" and what we do is a drone is able to fly on its own using GPS satellites to fly a pre programmed course, but also has the ability to fly much higher, much farther, carry much more advanced weapons and cameras.

At some point though the concern of this technology ever being turned on the American people is a real possibility, as we can see already Google Maps and the Patriot act, it already has. Any would be burglar anywhere in the world can go on google maps and see the backyard of anyone's home, and yet they make Rc quad copters out to be the big threat.

Requiring registration is also placing one more tax on us, and why should we be having to pay more money into a already expensive hobby on toys that as we all know we will probably crash in a day or so.

I decided to look at this as a issue of self defense uses, and how registering pilots and their craft can lead to other restriction, I did this when I read a facebook comment saying "gun owner do not have to register their guns but kids with their rc toys do."

I realized this should be a issue for a organization with the ability to lobby against the registration of RC aircraft, and that organization best suited for it is the NRA.

Like them or hate them, at some point this does fall under issues that will involve them, and they have the money to lobby against any laws that over step their boundary's on Rc hobbyist like ourselves.

While altitude restrictions and flying area restrictions are probably a good idea, forcing people to register themselves and their craft is overstepping.

I suggest states provide recreational park just for Rc flying, so people can have a specific place to fly, this will certainly be a way to prevent accidents by people looking for places to fly close to airports.

I know I have a hard time finding places to fly, with many open field now becoming housing developments.

I would love a special park, her in Indiana we do have parks, but the laws prevent us from flying at them.

This issue is going to require big money, and all of us not just speaking against regulations but also offering better ideas on what to do.:black_eyed:

 

[razor02097]

Curious to see what they do about small 250 sized craft. I believe both of mine are under 4 pounds thus "hopefully" exempt. I do feel for the 500 size 1000 size and DJI guys.

I would like to see the new regulations be discussed on Flite Test.

A 250 quad is going to be way way under 4 lbs... unless it is solid metal. Most of the time the AUW of a mini quad is under 2lbs. Even the "tank" basher style like the HMB quad. So you should be just fine.


My tricopter will squeak under the 4lb AUW too. But future plans of putting a gimbal or landing gear/rail system on it depends if I would have to register it or not. I'm sure I'm not alone... I feel bad for the businesses that will lose out on my money because of a government program.

 

[Maue]

The main difference between a "drone" and what we do is a drone is able to fly on its own using GPS satellites to fly a pre programmed course, but also has the ability to fly much higher, much farther, carry much more advanced weapons and cameras.

I have ben saying this for years. However today's airial platforms are indeed drones by definition. With geofencing, follow me, and waypoint tracking and outher things that make them hands off

Now my original post was not on the idea of taxes. It was on the idea of education. You can't drive a car without a licens and yes it can be revoked but in order to obtane it in the first place you hafto have an understanding and prove that you know how to operate a car. This will get rid of the I didn't know excuse.

It's to easy to buy a aircraft that is ready to go out of the box and people put themselfs in a dangerous situation.
This is best summed up by Ian Malcolm in jurassic park.

Befor you even knew what you had you panted it, packaged it, put it on a lunch box and now you want to sell it.
They didn't obtane the knoladge for yourself and so you calim no responsibility for it

There are people who don't know how radio transmitions work and don't know that they need a ham radio lisens to do fpv

The most resent "drone" acsedents I've herd of now is one crashing in an empty nfl stadium. I can only imagen that someone thought that they can sit in the parking lot and look into the stadium not knowing that there transmitions will quit when they actually get in the stadium

The thing with registering aircraft is that most people have more than one wich makes this an inconvenience as well if someone does not register it than we're back at square one with the same problem and now one to blame.

As always there is alwase a little give and take and I understand that they want to have a way to track these aircraft back to there owners just like abandoned cars but I still feal like requiring a pilots license is a smarter move. It doesn't hafto be expensive but as it has already ben said it needs to be lobied

 

[razor02097]

I don't know why people keep going back on the car registration thing. The reason we have a DMV is to collect TAXES. The money is supposedly used to maintain and fix roads and expressways. If you get pulled over with expired tags you get a ticket because the owner of the vehicle did not pay the TAX to renew the tag. As long as you have permission from the owner to drive it the cop could not care less who you are.

In fact IMO the whole car argument is invalid. Look at how many accidents and deaths happen every year with automobiles! Even a minor crash with a vehicle can do serious damage. It is a vehicle that weighs thousands of pounds. It is difficult to see out of and maneuver for a new driver. The driver's licensing system is a joke. Go around this cone, now back up. Now go to that stop sign... okay you pass. Do you really want the DOT to train RC pilots??? Ok take off. Now don't crash into that tree. Okay you pass.


Not a single multirotor I have has GPS. None can fly autonomously or hold a position. I built them for fun and I'll be damned if I have to register them to enjoy them. I'd rather put them in a pile and set it on fire then bend over to some half baked FAA program. Especially since it won't solve a thing! Except probably a financial deficit this stupid registration would create.

 

[Datum]

This seems more like locks on your car. The locks will keep honest people out. Real thieves will not be deterred. Lazy people will continue to be lazy unless there is a simple method to comply. Computer software is a better example more akin to a car alarm. Install the software and by agreeing to the EULA you are accountable. Registration takes seconds over the internet and is typically automatic as part of installation. But like car locks, there are still thieves in the software world. The lesson? This solves nothing. It may be a move in the right direction but immediately it just causes mass hysteria and media hype for something trivial.

I don't think the FAA is worried about malicious drone use- of which there has been basically none. They're worried about people who aren't going to safely use these machines and the fact that they are completely unaccountable right now.

I might sound like a govt. shill, but I really think registration of unmanned aerial systems as the only way forwards. I can't think of any other way to hold people accountable for their aircraft.

 

[hotbrass2005]

Who is going to actually enforce this?

As has already been mentioned, registration of pilots or drones is unlikely to do any good at all. Responsible people who are already flying safely will be the ones that register. Those who don't know or don't care about the AMA rules already in place aren't going to follow new registration laws either.

Another issues is that when we start talking about registering UASs of any size, it presents the monumental task of enforcement. Who do they expect to do this? Local law enforcement? With the treatment of cops lately, I'm sure they'll be thrilled to have one task to take on... Most police departments in the country are spread thin already, so they handle the most pressing needs and let "no harm offenses" go. When was the last time anyone got a ticket for jaywalking? I doubt a cop finishing a 16 hours shift is really going to care about a multirotor flying around.

So basically, we have another law that does nothing to improve safety, burdens those who would do the right thing anyway, and is totally unenforceable. At least the politicians will have another talking point to present to the sheeple of the nation.

 

[Tmarter]

I feel like all the unwanted attention, mainly the negative attention that appears in the media or news, comes from stupid people that do stupid things. Sometimes you can't fix stupid! haha but in all seriousness, i'm actually not opposed to the fact that people should have to show some sort of responsibility for something that's bigger than a micro quad, like a nano qx inductrix, ominus, etc. the smaller guys can help people practice, but a lot are appearing in more than hobby stores, and no doubt about it, it's appealing to people who haven't seen the hobby before. Then, there's the group that would buy the huge $2000+ quads that are ALSO appearing in more than just hobby stores, some may even buy them on impulse...but it's not the people who find something cool in the store, or have the pockets to buy something huge on a whim.

It's the people that ignore the safety regulations, ignore people's rights to privacy, and ignore rules in general. The ones who fly in NO FLY ZONES, don't have an AMA license for insurance and other things that save you butt if something serious "did" happen, flying close to bystanders in crowded areas and not having enough experience or permission, perving on hot chicks on beaches then posting it on youtube (..... yes it's funny, but not when it's so blatantly obvious and you hear complaints about it), not paying attention, not being aware or your surroundings or being cautious, or just simply not having common sense in general. Those are the bad apples spoiling the bunch.

Registering with the AMA should have more credibility and should stand trump above all. Unless you want all the places and drones to be flying around with license plates, while police officers have their own drones and can pull you over for speeding, and all other imaginable circumstances. That being said, I'm against any other registration, license or other crap that does nothing to preserve the life and passion of the hobby AND people's safety. You've honestly got to have both, and so far, all the laws are turning out one-sided.

If someone is causing a problem due to their habits or actions, check for their AMA license. Tell them what they're doing wrong. Done. Easy peasy. All that fine print in an AMA License should boil down to this, and should stand against anyone or any organization who has a problem, legal or not:

"This license allows you to fly under certain conditions adhering to other people's safety, and YOU'RE legally responsible for your actions if YOU decide to be an idiot and break the rules because YOU wanted some awesome footy. Happy Flying!"

Note the capitalization. YOU are responsible for YOUR dumb actions. Don't spoil it for the people who follow the rules, keep other people safe AND still have a good time. Sooner or later these things will probably be key to improving the aspects of how fast a search team or emergency situation can respond. I'm betting money on that.

 

[Tmarter]

So maybe... restrict who can buy some of the stuff like the DJI Phantoms in Micro Center...OR restrict who can sell that stuff. Like I said, I'm not blaming the people who have the pockets for the stuff in general, but most people that buy it outside of a hobby store, may not be aware of the rules, and may not have have the right information available to them...Advertise the rules more clearly, or keep them away from people who can do damage with them, or do things that they shouldn't...the no-fly zones, privacy, radio frequency laws that can interfere with manned aircraft systems...that's all no joke and totally legitimate, and I agree with most of those laws. But the people who start all the ridiculous (yes, ridiculous) laws about Monetized videos on YouTube (getting paid for your videos), classifying them as "commercial", all that jazz...It's a sport. There are Professionals who do very impressive stuff, and lots of people would like to see it. That can continue their career. It's the same as getting paid to play video games and post youtube videos. Heck, the most poular guy on youtube does that. It's no different, you get paid for doing what you love to do, because you're a professional. That's all a load of bull. There's a better way to go about enforcing safety than stuff like that.