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Making a wing with Champ electronics?

#1
Making a flying wing with Champ electronics?

Hey guys, I am new to the forum, but I am by no means new to R/C (6 years and running). I just am getting into flying though (inspirations of the show :D). So, I went out and bought a Hobbyzone Champ. It was alright for the first few flights, then I had a couple bad wrecks. Caught the power line coasting down one time and snapped a wing off, caught a good gust of wind another time between my house and shed and knocked it down and snapped the other wing then the prop. I glued everything back, and got new props in. Now, the wings fold mid flight on banks and turns. It also, constantly pulls up even fully trimmed. I have about 7 sheets of dollar tree foam board I have been debating on using for some of the FT series, but I think this is the perfect opportunity to build a wing out of the champ. Does anyone maybe have some suggestions on how to go about this? I mean I assume it's going to be trial and error mostly. I just would like a little bit of guidance.
 
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Craftydan

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#2
Hey Max,

Welcome to the forum! Feel free to drop by the "say Hi!" thread over in the flight school section.

Hate to send you elsewhere, but here's a kit/plans that fits what you're looking for:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1761053&highlight=stingray

If you chose to go the plan route, you should be able to make it out of DT foam, assuming you've got some small Carbon fiber rod for stiffening (LHS, or small kite kits with CF spars). I'd reccomend stripping the paper off the foam and covering the final model with packing tape -- lighter and a bit more durable.

I've got it's bigger (32") brother, and it's a blast to fly -- this one looks just as much fun!
 
#3
Do you think that it would handle wind? I would still be flying outside, so I would want something that's not going to get bashed around. Sadly, my closest hobbyshop is over an hour and a half away, so I have to order everything. I may just get a pile of carbon fiber rods on hobbyking or something.

EDIT: Also, would I be able to use the stock radio for this as well as all of the stock electronics from my champ? I'm trying to get by with as little cost as possible.
 
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#4
Man, I read through about 7 pages of that, and I am more confused than when I went in. lol Just to use the stock tx, you have to mod the controller. I keep seeing things about rotating the brick 45 degrees or 90. I can't keep straight what's even going on. lol
 
#5
I mean, to make use of the electronics, what might be my best option? Maybe to build a replica to the Champ maybe out of foam board? I have no idea. I only know that I don't want to keep buying replacement parts for it. I've already bought a P-51 motor, a new tail assembly, new props, and a pile of batteries. Anymore help would be greatly appreciated guys.
 

Craftydan

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#6
Sorry about that. It's difficult to make a flying wing without elevons, and confusing if you're radio can't do elevons for you.

The twist mixing is an old trick from the home-built TX days when they'd disconnect the right gimble from the mount, drill new mount holes at 45 degrees and mount it cockeyed. After the twist, "up" moves both servos positive, (both surfaces up), down moves them both negative (both surfaces down), and left and right move them in opposite directions (ailerons).

Failed miserably explaining this earlier this week, and not sure I've succeeded today, but to use the champ TX, you'll have to hold it at an angle or wire up a converter circuit -- not for everybody, but what you'd need for a wing.


Now rebuilding the champ from foamboard can work. Again, build in naked foam around the scale of the champ, then cover with tape for durability. check the weight and if it's close you've got a winner.


Alternatively, perhaps a 10" nutball? I've heard those are fun but twitchy.


If you don't mind wading through 300-ish pages, there are a lot of good ideas in RC Groups' AR6400 thread(Spektrum's scratch build brick):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1146395

Mostly pictures with no plans, and some use other Parkzone UMX power systems, but it's full of ideas -- some of which will work for you.


Otherwise, I dig that you're trying to get out of the buy-fly-crash-buy cycle, and scratch building will help immensely, but there are SO many directions to go, even after limiting to the power system you have. Glad to help you with that, but what direction do you want to go?
 
#7
Sorry about that. It's difficult to make a flying wing without elevons, and confusing if you're radio can't do elevons for you.

The twist mixing is an old trick from the home-built TX days when they'd disconnect the right gimble from the mount, drill new mount holes at 45 degrees and mount it cockeyed. After the twist, "up" moves both servos positive, (both surfaces up), down moves them both negative (both surfaces down), and left and right move them in opposite directions (ailerons).

Failed miserably explaining this earlier this week, and not sure I've succeeded today, but to use the champ TX, you'll have to hold it at an angle or wire up a converter circuit -- not for everybody, but what you'd need for a wing.


Now rebuilding the champ from foamboard can work. Again, build in naked foam around the scale of the champ, then cover with tape for durability. check the weight and if it's close you've got a winner.


Alternatively, perhaps a 10" nutball? I've heard those are fun but twitchy.


If you don't mind wading through 300-ish pages, there are a lot of good ideas in RC Groups' AR6400 thread(Spektrum's scratch build brick):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1146395

Mostly pictures with no plans, and some use other Parkzone UMX power systems, but it's full of ideas -- some of which will work for you.


Otherwise, I dig that you're trying to get out of the buy-fly-crash-buy cycle, and scratch building will help immensely, but there are SO many directions to go, even after limiting to the power system you have. Glad to help you with that, but what direction do you want to go?
Well, I'm honestly not too sure. I would like to do the easiest, cheapest, best flying thing possible, but doesn't everyone? lol I have some good experience behind the Brooklyn Aerodrome's flying towel, and I am in LOVE with the durability and flight characteristics. It's just amazing the beating it takes and comes back for more. I want something like that if at all possible.
 
#8
Sorry about that. It's difficult to make a flying wing without elevons, and confusing if you're radio can't do elevons for you.

The twist mixing is an old trick from the home-built TX days when they'd disconnect the right gimble from the mount, drill new mount holes at 45 degrees and mount it cockeyed. After the twist, "up" moves both servos positive, (both surfaces up), down moves them both negative (both surfaces down), and left and right move them in opposite directions (ailerons).

Failed miserably explaining this earlier this week, and not sure I've succeeded today, but to use the champ TX, you'll have to hold it at an angle or wire up a converter circuit -- not for everybody, but what you'd need for a wing.


Now rebuilding the champ from foamboard can work. Again, build in naked foam around the scale of the champ, then cover with tape for durability. check the weight and if it's close you've got a winner.


Alternatively, perhaps a 10" nutball? I've heard those are fun but twitchy.


If you don't mind wading through 300-ish pages, there are a lot of good ideas in RC Groups' AR6400 thread(Spektrum's scratch build brick):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1146395

Mostly pictures with no plans, and some use other Parkzone UMX power systems, but it's full of ideas -- some of which will work for you.


Otherwise, I dig that you're trying to get out of the buy-fly-crash-buy cycle, and scratch building will help immensely, but there are SO many directions to go, even after limiting to the power system you have. Glad to help you with that, but what direction do you want to go?
Well, I'm honestly not too sure. I would like to do the easiest, cheapest, best flying thing possible, but doesn't everyone? lol I have some good experience behind the Brooklyn Aerodrome's flying towel, and I am in LOVE with the durability and flight characteristics. It's just amazing the beating it takes and comes back for more. I want something like that if at all possible.
 
#12
You might be able to build a mini delta with polyhedral and a RET set up. I have one I designed that flies superbly on very little power.
This one below is very similar to mine. I just made a one piece elevator.

Like this out of 3mm foam: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1685988
Thanks for the help, but I have no clue what RET is. :D I am more than willing to learn if you decide to go more into depth. Polyhedral however is when the wings have a slightly upward angle correct? Now if I was to gut this Champ and start throwing together a micro delta, can I use my current stock radio? Also would I have to adjust the pushrods and servos somehow? Is there any certain thing I have to do to make it from a puller to a pusher?
 

Craftydan

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#13
RET = Rudder-Elevator-Throttle (yeah, took me a while on that one too)
Dihedral = upward angle along the wing from the root \|/
Polyhedral = flat middle with upward angle at the tips \_|_/

Yep, the champ is RET, so all the champ electronics are already perfect for RET.

Swapping the motor direction on a brushed motor is easy if you don't mind burining them out faster - just turn the plug over - but it will wear the brushes out faster. The prop on the other hand will need to be mounted the other way, with the writing facing the motor. You could also mount the motor on the back side of the slot and not have to switch from pull to push. disadvantage of this is you're weight is concentrated in the back, and getting CG balance just got a little harder (one good reason why prop-in-slots usually mount on the front). If you don't mind breaking props/prop shafts (Grrr . . . ), you could skip the slot and mount to the nose. there are also micro-sizes prop-savers that are sold, and they DO work.

you will likely need to cut your own pushrods (dunno, you might get lucky, but I doubt it). piano wire is fantastic for this and available in many craft shops music stores, and the hard-to-get-to LHS. Z-bend ends with a V in the middle can work well. Can also build two z-bend "halves" that overlap by a couple of inches, then tie them together sized to the right length and secure with CA.

Never heard of the flying towel. From the you-tube vids, looks like a nice little delta wing!
 
#14
RET = Rudder-Elevator-Throttle (yeah, took me a while on that one too)
Dihedral = upward angle along the wing from the root \|/
Polyhedral = flat middle with upward angle at the tips \_|_/

Yep, the champ is RET, so all the champ electronics are already perfect for RET.

Swapping the motor direction on a brushed motor is easy if you don't mind burining them out faster - just turn the plug over - but it will wear the brushes out faster. The prop on the other hand will need to be mounted the other way, with the writing facing the motor. You could also mount the motor on the back side of the slot and not have to switch from pull to push. disadvantage of this is you're weight is concentrated in the back, and getting CG balance just got a little harder (one good reason why prop-in-slots usually mount on the front). If you don't mind breaking props/prop shafts (Grrr . . . ), you could skip the slot and mount to the nose. there are also micro-sizes prop-savers that are sold, and they DO work.

you will likely need to cut your own pushrods (dunno, you might get lucky, but I doubt it). piano wire is fantastic for this and available in many craft shops music stores, and the hard-to-get-to LHS. Z-bend ends with a V in the middle can work well. Can also build two z-bend "halves" that overlap by a couple of inches, then tie them together sized to the right length and secure with CA.

Never heard of the flying towel. From the you-tube vids, looks like a nice little delta wing!
Thanks for all of that information! Whew, my brain is going to hurt more now! lol So, maybe if I made a delta with the prop cutout in the middle and rudder with a solid elevator would that be the way to do possibly? I really like the elevons on "The Towe". I really feel like I can fly it so much better than the Champ. :/ Maybe I should just get the Bonsai, Teksumo, or just build me a Versa then just rebuild a replica Champ out of my foam board? I don't know. lol So many options, so little money. haha
 

Craftydan

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#16
Foam Addict is right, You'll probably want polyhedral (like the nutball wingtips) to keep it from rolling, but A RET delta is absolutely doable. It won't be bank-and-yank like an elevon control, but your radio will be able to handle it.

Know what you mean. There's sooo much it helps to know, and digging into scratch building turns on the learning like a fire hose! Give it time and be creative with what you have. Move upward as you can.

Honestly, if you can make something out of the champ guts to get back in the air, you're next best purchase is a programmable radio. If you can make something out of the guts, you'll be better equipped to take on repairing your next plane, and a programmable radio will make elevons using the champ brick trivial. You'll also have something to grow with you -- it'll control the Tech sumo or bonsai without an on-board elevon mixer and with much greater range.

So my recommendation is start putting together a RET for now, get a new TX and build a micro wing, then start stepping up your wing size.
 
#18
Just a point but you can have bank and yank (Ailerons, Elevator, Throttle) using the same controls and servos as RET.
Many EDFs use bank and yank.
With aileron control you don't need as much (or any!) dihedral and it allows a greater range of aerobatics (including inverted flight) if the plane has sufficient performance.
This plane is doing all the aerobatics on 3 channels (bank and yank).
[video=vimeo;43243606]https://vimeo.com/43243606[/video]
It has no rudder.
 

Craftydan

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#19
Just a point but you can have bank and yank (Ailerons, Elevator, Throttle) using the same controls and servos as RET.
Many EDFs use bank and yank.
With aileron control you don't need as much (or any!) dihedral and it allows a greater range of aerobatics (including inverted flight) if the plane has sufficient performance.
This plane is doing all the aerobatics on 3 channels (bank and yank).
It has no rudder.
True, but the champ electronics have two linear servos, fixed parallel to each other. It would take a fancy
(read: heavy) linkage to convert one of those servos into two opposing motions.
 
#20
So, more than likely, my easiest, most cost effective, fastest way to get back in the air with what I have is to probably make a champ out of my DT foam I already have? That way, it's literally swapping electronics from plane to plane?