My H-Quad Build

[BankNYank!]

If you are going to FPV-video ... you should have though in advance of some ant vibration mount to be used ... still you can cut some holes in the wood plate and run some anti-vibration dampening balls .. or use some different way ... I guess you will have to make the camera over the frame that does make jello and vibration a little bit more problematic.

Anyhow ... you can try first with no special mount .. and maybe you are lucky that not much vibration absorb is needed ... sometime just some velcro mount for light camera can make the job.

I have just seen the day video on post #1 ... it is flying really very good

I'm going to buy a Mobius very soon. It seems to be a good choice in that you can get it with a wide angle lens, it records and it has video out so down the road when I step into FPV I can fly and record from the same camera. If I have any trouble with jello or any other vibration issues I plan to build a mount like this one. I don't have a GoPro yet so the Mobius seems to be my best option.

It does seem to fly very well. Even in windy conditions like in that video. I see why so many people are fans of the kk2 boards. I just wish my flight times were a little longer but I guess 5 to 8 minutes is to be expected with a multirotor. I'm used to my planes where I get 10 to 15min flights.

I'm already thinking of ways to shed wait on this thing and I'm starting to think about a second quad that's super light and stays up longer. A tricopter is in the mix too. The only thing I'm missing to build that are the esc's and I'm about to make another order to RTFQ for some backup electronics for this H-Quad so I'll grab some esc's for the tri while I'm at it!

 

[e_lm_70]

I'm going to buy a Mobius very soon. It seems to be a good choice in that you can get it with a wide angle lens, it records and it has video out so down the road when I step into FPV I can fly and record from the same camera. If I have any trouble with jello or any other vibration issues I plan to build a mount like this one. I don't have a GoPro yet so the Mobius seems to be my best option.

It does seem to fly very well. Even in windy conditions like in that video. I see why so many people are fans of the kk2 boards. I just wish my flight times were a little longer but I guess 5 to 8 minutes is to be expected with a multirotor. I'm used to my planes where I get 10 to 15min flights.

I'm already thinking of ways to shed wait on this thing and I'm starting to think about a second quad that's super light and stays up longer. A tricopter is in the mix too. The only thing I'm missing to build that are the esc's and I'm about to make another order to RTFQ for some backup electronics for this H-Quad so I'll grab some esc's for the tri while I'm at it!

Mobius is a good camera, but nobody really use it for FPV ... people that do FPV has a 2nd camera , since the lag of mobius is around 200mSec

You can get a TopCam for less money, in very similar full HD quality but it will offer less then half of the delay over the AV out.

With TopCam you can have one single cam both for record and for FPV stream.

Clearly nothing is better then a GoPro 3 black ...

About the vibration mount ... actually I never had good success with little anti vibration mount ... ideally you want to put as much mass as possible inside the area that is isolated together with the camera ... so that's why "my ideal" copter design has the battery and the camera on the same isolated mount.

About KK2 ... it is a decent board ... like many ... it is just more simple to be used for the first experience due to LCD display that avoid some dummy mistakes during the first set up ... I had perfectly flying copter also with the old ultra simple KK1.0 with a micro 4K memory chip inside ... so basic control of the copter is trivial for any control board on the market now ... mainly is the quality of the propeller and the ESC speed that make the difference (you got the best ESC with SimonK inside, I can tell you if you take generic ESC you will have many troubles)

In my experience a good copter (correct motor/prop combination and good ESC) ... does fly perfectly fine with any control board with the default PID ... the control board technology is very simple and very mature in these days ... the next challenges are the one connected to GPS handling ... but also for these ... we can see more and more control board that do a good job handling GPS.


PS: Back to vibration ... since you have a frame made of wood ... you may have already quite limited vibrations ... but you will discover only once you put a camera on board

 

[BankNYank!]

Mobius is a good camera, but nobody really use it for FPV ... people that do FPV has a 2nd camera , since the lag of mobius is around 200mSec

You can get a TopCam for less money, in very similar full HD quality but it will offer less then half of the delay over the AV out.

With TopCam you can have one single cam both for record and for FPV stream.

Clearly nothing is better then a GoPro 3 black ...

I didn't know about the long delay with the Mobius. Thanks for that! How about the SecurityCam2000? People talk about that being a good fpv camera and it's on sale right now!

About the vibration mount ... actually I never had good success with little anti vibration mount ... ideally you want to put as much mass as possible inside the area that is isolated together with the camera ... so that's why "my ideal" copter design has the battery and the camera on the same isolated mount.

PS: Back to vibration ... since you have a frame made of wood ... you may have already quite limited vibrations ... but you will discover only once you put a camera on board

Putting more weight on the isolation mount makes perfect sense! The added mass will help reduce any vibration at the mount by putting more force on the dampeners. Of course there is a point where there's to much force but I get the concept.

About KK2 ... it is a decent board ... like many ... it is just more simple to be used for the first experience due to LCD display that avoid some dummy mistakes during the first set up ... I had perfectly flying copter also with the old ultra simple KK1.0 with a micro 4K memory chip inside ... so basic control of the copter is trivial for any control board on the market now ... mainly is the quality of the propeller and the ESC speed that make the difference (you got the best ESC with SimonK inside, I can tell you if you take generic ESC you will have many troubles)

I understand. What your saying makes sense. I've started looking for an FC with gps and I'm really liking all I've seen about the APM line of FC's. I'm looking at an APM 2.5. I know there's a newer version out but I have no problems buying yesterdays technology if it will do what I need it to and save me money in the process! All I'm really needing it to do is position hold and altitude hold and since APM 2.5 has the option to fly waypoints I'd like to give that a try as well. I'm going to be creating a new thread later today for questions and discussion on the 2.5 and if it's right for me.

I'm really liking my prop, motor and esc choice and its all thanks to you guys. I wouldn't of had a clue what to buy if it wasn't for all of you who posted on my other thread!

I will stick with SimonK flashed esc's, no doubt. I'm going to be placing another order with RTFQ and I'll being ordering more of his esc's for sure!

 

[e_lm_70]

Sony Camera are good ... but is just a "normal" AV out camera, so no full HD, not even HD, and not recording over microSD.

About APM ... your KK2.0 can make GPS, RTH and Action .. by just getting a GPS and a 16$ 10DOF module:

http://youtu.be/CqEdOa-rLXM

http://youtu.be/T2wpMEYAIZk

Clearly APM can do more things ... but not sure how many of these things are really needed.

For me have RTH is already enough.
On this KK2.0 and GPS you can add OSD ... since it will have a serial port for connect the minimOSD module.

Only limit ... is that you need a PPM RX or a PPM converter, since KK2.0 has limited inputs ...

 

[BankNYank!]

Sony Camera are good ... but is just a "normal" AV out camera, so no full HD, not even HD, and not recording over microSD.

About APM ... your KK2.0 can make GPS, RTH and Action .. by just getting a GPS and a 16$ 10DOF module:

http://youtu.be/CqEdOa-rLXM

http://youtu.be/T2wpMEYAIZk

Clearly APM can do more things ... but not sure how many of these things are really needed.

For me have RTH is already enough.
On this KK2.0 and GPS you can add OSD ... since it will have a serial port for connect the minimOSD module.

Only limit ... is that you need a PPM RX or a PPM converter, since KK2.0 has limited inputs ...

So you think the TopCam is a better camera at a better price than the SecurityCam2000? The SecurityCam2000 does 600TVL. What are the specs on the TopCam? Can you provide a link? I find TopCam stuff, most not in english and I'm not sure where the camera is your talking about.

I just finished watching your videos and reading through your thread over at RCGroups. I like what your doing with the KK2.0 and 2.1! Nice work there! I would really be interested in using that on my new kk2.0 board that I got from RTFQ. Since I got a kk2.1.5 used I've been using it on my scratch build and haven't even soldered the pins to the kk2.0 yet!

I want the APM for all the stuff it can do. But I like your mod to the kk2.0 in the fact that it has gps and gives you the basics for a reasonable price.

I've also started a thread here on questions about RTFQ's ReadytoFlyer 2.5.2. Please feel free to chime in with any thoughts or comments about that option on that thread!

And as always, thank you for all your input!

 

[e_lm_70]

So you think the TopCam is a better camera at a better price than the SecurityCam2000? The SecurityCam2000 does 600TVL. What are the specs on the TopCam? Can you provide a link? I find TopCam stuff, most not in english and I'm not sure where the camera is your talking about.

I just finished watching your videos and reading through your thread over at RCGroups. I like what your doing with the KK2.0 and 2.1! Nice work there! I would really be interested in using that on my new kk2.0 board that I got from RTFQ. Since I got a kk2.1.5 used I've been using it on my scratch build and haven't even soldered the pins to the kk2.0 yet!

I want the APM for all the stuff it can do. But I like your mod to the kk2.0 in the fact that it has gps and gives you the basics for a reasonable price.

I've also started a thread here on questions about RTFQ's ReadytoFlyer 2.5.2. Please feel free to chime in with any thoughts or comments about that option on that thread!

And as always, thank you for all your input!

TopCam is similar to Mobius (is a camera and video recorder in fully HD = 1920 x 1080)
SecurityCam2000 is just a "camera" ... doing 600TVL = 600x600 pixel (or less) ... no video recorded capability

Here I made a little video comparison between TopCam and Mobius :
http://youtu.be/uXBJGjoYTIQ

I have no video showing the TopCam and Mobius delay ... but TopCam can be used for FPV directly without any extra cam .. Mobius normally not ... it has too big delay .. your brain will over heat trying to compensate the delay

As far as I know topcam can be sourced only from eBay ... no idea where else:
Here is an example of eBay offer fro 58$ shipped:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOPCAM-Acti...-DVR-1080P-30FPS-Hidden-Cam-HOT-/171341779396

 

[FinalGlideAus]

E_Im 70, you didn't state what firmware or settings you used on the Mobius. That can have a big impact on the quality of the footage. This makes the test rather unfair.

BanknYank, whether you go with Mobius/Topcam or sony super Had 600tvl Board Camera depends on what you want to do. Both types have pluses and minuses.

The Mobius/Topcam can record as well as being your FPV camera and they record in HD which the Board camera can't. Be aware though that you can't view the image in HD with FPV so HD is useless for FPV purposes. It is only good for recording.

Both the Mobius/Topcam have bad lag. There is a reason why the Flitetest crew are really bad at flying their Blackout quads in proximity. That's because they don't use board cameras and they hit the tree before they even see it. The Topcam may be better but it still has lag so if you want to do ANY proximity flying the Mobius/Topcam are not the fpv cameras for you.

The Mobius/Topcam have terrible light to dark or dark to light abilities. If you go from a bright area to a dark area with your multirotor during FPV you won't see anything for a second or two till the camera adjusts itself. The Sony board camera will adjust straight away.

One other thing the Mobius/Topcam are really bad at is low light. As soon as it gets a little dark, you can't fly. The Sony board camera with Wide Dynamic Range turned on will allow you to fly FPV way darker than what you can see line of sight. Sometimes I take my goggles off when flying after sunset and am amazed at just how dark it is. I race my miniquad in the skatepark at night under street lights. You can't do that with the Mobius/Topcam.

The Mobius/Topcam are much heavier. The Topcam may be a little lighter than the Mobius but the Sony Board camera is only 15 grams compared to the Mobius at 40 grams.

If you just want to slowly fly around at altitude during the day then use a Mobius/Topcam. For all other FPV flying use a board camera.

My mini quad has both. The board camera for flying from and a Mobius for recording.

 

[jhitesma]

Since I don't think I've had a chance to say it yet...congrats on getting it flying! Looks great!

As for cameras. FGA pretty much nailed it (e_lm_70 is saying a lot of the same stuff, but not quite as in depth)

But...the one thing left out...goPro.

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of GoPro. Yeah, they're remarkably tough cameras and yeah they do pretty good video...but I've never been big on the look of their video. It's gotten a lot better on the 3 but still has a distinct "gopro look" that stands out like a sore thumb to me unless it's worked over in post which seldom happens on youtube videos. I also tend to feel they're overpriced for what they are. That doesn't mean they're bad...just I'm not a fan of them for the price point. Drop $100 off the price and I'd be a lot more impressed.

The important thing about them though is that even goPro's have delay on their analog signal which is used for FPV. Some comparisons I've seen on youtube it's just as bad as the mobius. (though again firmware versions have a lot to do with it - but even with the best firmware on either there's still a delay.)

I suspect this is a big part of why David has such a reputation for hitting planes with his tri while recording them. Between the compressed depth perception of a wide angle lens and the delay of viewing through a gopro it's all but inevitable that you'll hit things. That he does it so seldom is a testament to David's skill and experience. I fully understand the desire to use the same camera for filming as FPV since it helps with framing. But there are other ways to deal with that, and as someone with a background in photography the idea of a truly accurate viewfinder makes me laugh. Some of the most lauded cameras in history had horrible viewfinders that in some ways would show more than what you'd actually get in the frame and in others would show far less. One of the skills of a photographer (or videographer - their viewfinders are generally even worse!) is learning how to compensate for the limitations of your equipment.

I find it even funnier that FT has such a strong belief in flying through the camera they shoot with given that Chad and David both also have a penchant for "lomography" talk about some unpredictable viewfinders! But it comes down to personal preference and what you're used to and feel you can get the best results from. I'm not saying FT is doing it wrong - just saying the way they do it is not the only way. I understand why they do things the way they do I just disagree that it makes as much of a difference as they believe it does. We're all very good at convincing ourselves that certain things work better for us than they really do.

With a bit of care in setup it's not hard to get two cameras to share effectively the same view and still be able to frame shots accurately. With a bit of work in post there are even more options but that gets more complex.

Guess what it comes down to is personally I'd rather put up with a slightly inaccurate "viewfinder" and a few extra grams for a second camera than any delay in the image used for control of the craft.

 

[BankNYank!]

Thanks jhitesma for the props on getting 'er flying. You and e_lm_70 are a big reason for that!

My whole reason for getting into the multirotor world is to do aerial video. I've done a lot of research on the subject and I have come to the conclusion that it's better to have one camera for shooting video and one for fpv. I saw them at FT talking about the Mobius and liking it because it can record decent quality video and has video out for fpv so I started looking in that direction. I didn't know about the lag until e_lm_70 mentioned it. So I'm going to go with FGA on the fpv camera and see about getting a SecCam2000 for FPV (they are on sale right now!) and either a Mobius or TopCam for recording. I'll have to research the TopCam some more but from the video I do like the TopCam better just for the fact that the dark/shady areas aren't quite as dark. But then as FGA said, I guess there's firmware.More research. Another thing to put on my list of things to research!

I too am not a fan of GoPro but only for one reason. I'm not going to spend $300 on a camera that has a high probability of being lost or broken. $100 I can stomach a little better. One day I'd like to graduate to a bigger multirotor with a gimbal and a camera man riding along fpv who can control the gimbal from a different transmitter and get the shot while I'm flying LOS. Then I may step up to a GoPro or whatever I feel is giving the best video in a small package when the time comes. But for now, after watching $400 fly away, I've decided cheaper is better!

 

[e_lm_70]

E_Im 70, you didn't state what firmware or settings you used on the Mobius. That can have a big impact on the quality of the footage. This makes the test rather unfair.

BanknYank, whether you go with Mobius/Topcam or sony super Had 600tvl Board Camera depends on what you want to do. Both types have pluses and minuses.

The Mobius/Topcam can record as well as being your FPV camera and they record in HD which the Board camera can't. Be aware though that you can't view the image in HD with FPV so HD is useless for FPV purposes. It is only good for recording.

Both the Mobius/Topcam have bad lag. There is a reason why the Flitetest crew are really bad at flying their Blackout quads in proximity. That's because they don't use board cameras and they hit the tree before they even see it. The Topcam may be better but it still has lag so if you want to do ANY proximity flying the Mobius/Topcam are not the fpv cameras for you.

The Mobius/Topcam have terrible light to dark or dark to light abilities. If you go from a bright area to a dark area with your multirotor during FPV you won't see anything for a second or two till the camera adjusts itself. The Sony board camera will adjust straight away.

One other thing the Mobius/Topcam are really bad at is low light. As soon as it gets a little dark, you can't fly. The Sony board camera with Wide Dynamic Range turned on will allow you to fly FPV way darker than what you can see line of sight. Sometimes I take my goggles off when flying after sunset and am amazed at just how dark it is. I race my miniquad in the skatepark at night under street lights. You can't do that with the Mobius/Topcam.

The Mobius/Topcam are much heavier. The Topcam may be a little lighter than the Mobius but the Sony Board camera is only 15 grams compared to the Mobius at 40 grams.

If you just want to slowly fly around at altitude during the day then use a Mobius/Topcam. For all other FPV flying use a board camera.

My mini quad has both. The board camera for flying from and a Mobius for recording.

I guess you don't own a TOPCAM ... so your comments related to it are really quite strange to me.

Video lag on TOPCAM is good enough for fly FPV ... on Mobius being more then double, it is not.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

I guess you don't own a TOPCAM ... so your comments related to it are really quite strange to me.

Video lag on TOPCAM is good enough for fly FPV ... on Mobius being more then double, it is not.

Lag is lag, small or large and cannot be used when flying proximity.

 

[e_lm_70]

Lag is lag, small or large and cannot be used when flying proximity.

Everything has lag in the nature

The display in your fpv screen has a lag
Your eyes sending the image to the brain has a lag
The image itself, has a lag since the light need to travel from the object to the eye or the sensor

So, not only you don't have a TOPCAM and you try to judge this camera, but it is looking you have limited understanding of the 'lag' effect in FPV

 

[Craftydan]

Oh come on guys!

FGA,

you've painted with a very broad brush here. You've have a point on principal, but poorly stated (lag is not bad . . . but too much is). You've applied that principal to gear you haven't flown with, to say it's unsuitable for your taste . . . may be true or not, but you don't have the experience to back the assertion up.

e_lm,

You seem to have played with this gear and stand by it . . . well, show it off! Evidence always beats assertions. A split screen (or video of an FPV screen seeing the same event like a waving hand) would be usefull to *ALL* of us. If FGA can repeat the test with a mobius showing similar lag -- or worse -- so much the better!

Quantify, gentlemen! Don't tout each other's ignorance!

 

[e_lm_70]

I did the following experiment

Used a stop watch on pc
Used a video grabber
Used the recording camera with video out going to the pc grabber
Record in the loop : Monitor with Video out from PC ... so I got a loop of PiP with a timer running

Then I did analyze frame by frame the result of the video recorded by the camera

The loop on Topcam close after 3 frames , so 100mSec
The loop in Mobius close after 6 frames, so 200mSec

Since there are multiple delay: PC video grabber, PC monitor and Camera lag ... I can't say how much is the lag ... clealry the lag using a PC and video grabber it will be 100mSec ... but possibly a normal monitor or goggle could be faster.

Anyhow, my experiment show clearly that the lag of topcam is less then half of mobius ... some people report to fly using mobius video out, so , on topcam then there is clearly no problem to fly with it alone

Mobius using 720p and 60fps, does 133mSec loop ... so it is still slower then topcam doing 1080p 30fps

I was thinking to make a video to show the results (using a bunch of camera that I have (HD19, G1W, DV04, Mobius, TOPCAM and #18) ... but too much work ... and possibly a very booring video to post on youtube

 

[Cyberdactyl]

If you've ever played an FPS or an air combat sim online, 200ms is borderline aggravating, but not unplayable. 200ms wouldn't bother me all that much as long as I'm not dancing and weaving through tight tree limbs.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

If you've ever played an FPS or an air combat sim online, 200ms is borderline aggravating, but not unplayable. 200ms wouldn't bother me all that much as long as I'm not dancing and weaving through tight tree limbs.

Agreed Cyber, as I said orginally, if you're flying at altitude or just hovering like in I_em's link it is not a problem. Flying low and fast is another matter.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

Oh come on guys!

FGA,

you've painted with a very broad brush here. You've have a point on principal, but poorly stated (lag is not bad . . . but too much is). You've applied that principal to gear you haven't flown with, to say it's unsuitable for your taste . . . may be true or not, but you don't have the experience to back the assertion up.

e_lm,

You seem to have played with this gear and stand by it . . . well, show it off! Evidence always beats assertions. A split screen (or video of an FPV screen seeing the same event like a waving hand) would be usefull to *ALL* of us. If FGA can repeat the test with a mobius showing similar lag -- or worse -- so much the better!

Quantify, gentlemen! Don't tout each other's ignorance!

Apologies Crafty, I will pull my head in as I don't think I_em and I will ever agree on much as we seem to fly very differently. Slow stabilized hovers as aposed to low, fast and in acro mode can require two very different setups.

I didn't feel the need to justify my reasoning as any digital HD to anologue conversion will produce a lag unless the tech industry has made a new discovery I'm not aware of.

You got me all excited too Crafty. It's the first time ive seen you cranky

 

[Craftydan]

FGA,

Sorry, long day . . .

e_lm,

interesting data . . . and clever way to grab numbers. I am curious if you'd run an experiment for me -- you don't have to, but I don't have the gear to pull it off here -- could you record a feedback loop using the camera, VTX/VRX and monitor?

Setup is simpler than it sounds -- point the camera toward the monitor, framed so it only sees half the display, then have something moving in the other half. The infinite chain of monitors will be mostly off screen, one side will have the un-delayed video and the other half will have a single delay video -- 30s would be plenty to *see* the lag.

I may be wrong, but I doubt I'd be the only person interested in seeing this comparison -- numbers are great for hard comparisons, but seeing the impact gives a better feel for what you're getting into.

 

[e_lm_70]

If you've ever played an FPS or an air combat sim online, 200ms is borderline aggravating, but not unplayable. 200ms wouldn't bother me all that much as long as I'm not dancing and weaving through tight tree limbs.

If 200mSec is borderline ... what is 100mSec

Why people don't realize that simply TOPCAM is 2 time faster on pass the image from CMOS sensor to AV-out compared to the "beloved" Mobius.

I'm the first to state that Mobius has a better support (with constant update) and it has an edge on better video in fully HD ... but when it come down to FPV and AV-out, TOPCAM is way better.

This means it is a super camera for small copter doing FPV, since it is lighter then Mobius and does not need any extra camera on board ... the gain is well over 40 grams in my book ... something important for the fly time in a 250mm or smaller copter.

 

[e_lm_70]

FGA,

Sorry, long day . . .

e_lm,

interesting data . . . and clever way to grab numbers. I am curious if you'd run an experiment for me -- you don't have to, but I don't have the gear to pull it off here -- could you record a feedback loop using the camera, VTX/VRX and monitor?

Setup is simpler than it sounds -- point the camera toward the monitor, framed so it only sees half the display, then have something moving in the other half. The infinite chain of monitors will be mostly off screen, one side will have the un-delayed video and the other half will have a single delay video -- 30s would be plenty to *see* the lag.

I may be wrong, but I doubt I'd be the only person interested in seeing this comparison -- numbers are great for hard comparisons, but seeing the impact gives a better feel for what you're getting into.

I have these raw movies both from Mobius and TopCam, in 30fs and 60fps ... they can be analyzed only using a frame by frame software like AVIdemux .. just loaded on you tube will not give much ... people will have to download the video from you tube using tricky tools and then analyze frame by frame.. else make a video proof in a proper way take quite some time ... and quite some booring video editing.

Yes, at the end ... you need to trust my words ... people that challenge my words did always lost their gamble

I need to get a free very booring day for make a video showing a comparison of different cameras and as well using a normal CMOS camera without digital recording.