My H-Quad Build

[e_lm_70]

Apologies Crafty, I will pull my head in as I don't think I_em and I will ever agree on much as we seem to fly very differently. Slow stabilized hovers as aposed to low, fast and in acro mode can require two very different setups.

I didn't feel the need to justify my reasoning as any digital HD to anologue conversion will produce a lag unless the tech industry has made a new discovery I'm not aware of.

You got me all excited too Crafty. It's the first time ive seen you cranky

Everything has a lag ... even a normal pure Sony 600TVL camera has a lag
All the camera are digital ... all ... only the AVout signal is an analogue signal.
Digital to Analogue to Digital, happen no matter what you are doing for take a video live and stream on a LCD.

What did surprise me, is your strong position over a camera that you don't own.
You open the discussion mentioning that my "bad" I made a comparison without stating on bold the firmware version of mobius ... something that has no relevance on the video lag ... since no update firmware for Mobius did ever improve this aspect ...

Also , how you may guess I'm used to fly, it is not relevant to this discussion, first because it is a guess (you have no idea what I do with my copter and how I fly), and second, it is no relevant ...

What is relevant is that the video lag over AV-out is more then double on Mobius compared to TOPCAM.

Anybody that has a minimum understanding of engineering ... should know that +/- 1% is something neglectable (in most of the cases, or in all the cases related to human senses) ... but +100% / - 50% ... is something very visible and tangible .. this is the difference between Mobius and TOPCAM in this aspect.

PS: Sorry for be direct ... but when somebody start to questioning some points that I'm ultra super confident and I did double and triple check .. it goes a bit on my nerves, especially if are added non-relevant guesses for justify a wrong position .. still I'm just posting here pure facts ... and I'm no trying to discredit or insult anybody.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

Possibly what CraftyDan has suggested as an experiment will show lag times well by keeping everything constant except for the camera. If you really want to prove your point then that would be the best way. If you have a board camera, Topcam, Möbius and GoPro compared side by side that would really show your point. Until then maybe show us a video of your setup doing fast proximity to prove that lag is not a problem. The only footage of yours I have seen is hovering and in that situation lag is not an issue at all. When I get home from my CASA conference I am happy to upload something to show what I am talking about.

If you truly have a HD setup with similar speed of a board camera then please show us as this is a BIG step forward and I'm not the only one who would be interested in it. It just seems strange that you are the only one who has discovered this?

 

[e_lm_70]

Possibly what CraftyDan has suggested as an experiment will show lag times well by keeping everything constant except for the camera. If you really want to prove your point then that would be the best way. If you have a board camera, Topcam, Möbius and GoPro compared side by side that would really show your point. Until then maybe show us a video of your setup doing fast proximity to prove that lag is not a problem. The only footage of yours I have seen is hovering and in that situation lag is not an issue at all. When I get home from my CASA conference I am happy to upload something to show what I am talking about.

If you truly have a HD setup with similar speed of a board camera then please show us as this is a BIG step forward and I'm not the only one who would be interested in it. It just seems strange that you are the only one who has discovered this?

I see ... you don't trust my words ... people should wonder which interest I may have to tell lies ... or may assume I'm doing something wrong ... :black_eyed:

TOPCAM is not a very popular camera, so not many people knows it, not many people use it.
TOPCAM does not have the huge background support like Mobius has ... the Mobius developer has establish a very good relation with RC community since the time of his 808 #16 (somehow also #11 since he was a coo-developer of #11 too)

Anyhow ... video like these I found quite useless ... I made a more scientific test, which I report the result .. still I don't feel to put on my youtube channel ... anyhow ... here is a report from a guy based in Germany.

I know some guys in Germany having a Topcam. We all use it for FPV.

The lag (latency) via the live-video-out is really good! It is almost instant. I am flying a Phantom FX-61, so of course, this is not a Funjet ;-) But everybody flying with "normal" speed should be absolutly pleased with the low latency

Another phantastic feature/advantage: Powering.
It simply starts video recording the moment it gets power via the USB-Power cable included ... so the handling is really simple. I have a 808 keycam as well - but to be honest - the blinking codes drove me nuts...never knew if the cam was recording or not...

With the Topcam it is much better an more convinient. Even configuration is pretty simple: edit the cfg.txt on the sdcard and you´re done

So, is there something wrong? Not really but there could be some improvements...

a) where to get accessories (i.e. spare mounting base or cables ...)
b) more/other lenses
c) possibilty to adjust the OSD in the Live-Out

But all in all: Highly recommended...

here is a lag test:

 

[FinalGlideAus]

Careful e_Im_70, we'll end up having CrankyDan spanking our bot bots again

Seriously though, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[e_lm_70]

Careful e_Im_70, we'll end up having CrankyDan spanking our bot bots again

Seriously though, let's just agree to disagree.

Please don't look the esthetic of the message ... look at the content.

Does the message from this german guy with his video ... address your questions ?
Does this make you look under a different optic the TOPCAM camera ?

I see you have your hard believe ... like me ... still as long we keep the discussion fair and respectful ... we can politely disagree ... and maybe with the bless of "CrankyDan"

Have a nice weekend there ... in the past I had some order routed over Australia ... since some old online shop from Japan did mess up Austria with Australia ... almost the same place .. just two letters of difference ...

 

[FinalGlideAus]

I have a number of issues with what you've put forward but I believe we've hijacked this thread enough already so let's get back to topic at hand, a really cool H quad.

 

[cranialrectosis]

Here it is! The final product! Everything wrapped up and tucked away. I don't know the AUW because I don't have a scale but I'm getting about 5 mins on a 25C 3S 2200 and about 8 mins on a 20C 3S 2650.

Nice copter. One of the cleanest scratch built copters I have seen. Great job BankNYank.

I am lmao over this being "The Final Product". No offence meant but are any of our copters EVER finally built? I am building a Polakium quad today and I already have ideas for the second build of it...

Is that a fixed wing foamie I see you leaning the copter up against?

 

[BankNYank!]

Nice copter. One of the cleanest scratch built copters I have seen. Great job BankNYank.

I am lmao over this being "The Final Product". No offence meant but are any of our copters EVER finally built? I am building a Polakium quad today and I already have ideas for the second build of it...

Is that a fixed wing foamie I see you leaning the copter up against?

Thank you for the compliment. I've noticed things (mostly cosmetically) that could of been done better but this being my first scratch build quad I can only see future builds getting better!

"Final build" - I suppose I could of chose my wording a little better! lol I built this because I want to do aerial video with it. Then I got so caught up in the build I didn't take time to consider the particulars of where I wanted to mount the camera. I just figured I'd swap out the bottom front plate for one that sticks out a little in the front and mount the camera on that. The now obvious problem is that my camera will stick up into the path of the blades. So now I'm looking at using the big zip tie landing gear method and mounting my camera underneath. I'm also looking at, and about to buy, an APM FC for my quad. So yes, "final build" was not the words I should of used!

I had to do a google search for Polakium quad. I didn't know the brand. That unibody design looks very durable! I looked through your latest posts and I don't see a build thread for a Polakium quad but I did see the one for the Hex and that thing looks way cool! Are you going to do a build log or at least throw up some pictures of the quad?

That is a fixed wing foamy! Its an FT Cruiser. Fixed wings were my first experience in flying RC. I have just recently gotten into flying "real" multirotors. My nephew likes to build things so I set him up with all the stuff he needs to build DTFB planes and plans from FT. And so far (in the order that he built them) he has built me an FT Delta, Duster, Bloody Wonder, Cruiser and Flyer. He builds them and I put the electronics in them. He is currently working on a Simple Soarer. I have no problems using child labor! lol He goes out and fly's with me on occasion and I buddy box him. His cuts and assembly aren't the best but he enjoys to build and that's all that matters. As a thank you for all his hard work I gave him the FT Flyer after he finished it, and I put the electronics in it, along with a DX4 I got off one of the guys on here for cheap. I think this will greatly accelerate his learning to fly. His next build, the Simple Soarer, will be his as well. I have a PZ Radian and I think the two will be great for lazy summer afternoons. I don't have kids so my neph is the closest I've got. This is my way of building memories, both for him and me.

 

[lynxstrife]

You said you were getting 5 minutes of flight time with a 2200mah is that typical for quads? My tricopter gets 10 ish with fpv gear on. I drew up a H copter frame and for 1/2 the flight time it is not worth it to me.

 

[cranialrectosis]

I had to do a google search for Polakium quad. I didn't know the brand. That unibody design looks very durable! I looked through your latest posts and I don't see a build thread for a Polakium quad but I did see the one for the Hex and that thing looks way cool! Are you going to do a build log or at least throw up some pictures of the quad?

I will have a build thread with photos.

That is a fixed wing foamy! Its an FT Cruiser. Fixed wings were my first experience in flying RC. I have just recently gotten into flying "real" multirotors. My nephew likes to build things so I set him up with all the stuff he needs to build DTFB planes and plans from FT. And so far (in the order that he built them) he has built me an FT Delta, Duster, Bloody Wonder, Cruiser and Flyer. He builds them and I put the electronics in them. He is currently working on a Simple Soarer. I have no problems using child labor! lol He goes out and fly's with me on occasion and I buddy box him. His cuts and assembly aren't the best but he enjoys to build and that's all that matters. As a thank you for all his hard work I gave him the FT Flyer after he finished it, and I put the electronics in it, along with a DX4 I got off one of the guys on here for cheap. I think this will greatly accelerate his learning to fly. His next build, the Simple Soarer, will be his as well. I have a PZ Radian and I think the two will be great for lazy summer afternoons. I don't have kids so my neph is the closest I've got. This is my way of building memories, both for him and me.

30 years from now, your nephew will be a better man because of it.

 

[BankNYank!]

You said you were getting 5 minutes of flight time with a 2200mah is that typical for quads? My tricopter gets 10 ish with fpv gear on. I drew up a H copter frame and for 1/2 the flight time it is not worth it to me.

I'm really not sure if my flight times are typical. I never timed it but I'd say I was getting only a little better flight times out of my Blade 350 QX before it flew away. Maybe 7 or 8 minutes tops and it ran a 3s 2200 as well. But I think someone with more experience would be better qualified to answer that question.

I will have a build thread with photos.

30 years from now, your nephew will be a better man because of it.

I'll be watching for the build thread.

 

[e_lm_70]

I'm really not sure if my flight times are typical. I never timed it but I'd say I was getting only a little better flight times out of my Blade 350 QX before it flew away. Maybe 7 or 8 minutes tops and it ran a 3s 2200 as well. But I think someone with more experience would be better qualified to answer that question.




I'll be watching for the build thread.

7/8 min with 2200mA 3s is fine ... for the size of your copter
You could have win 1 or 2, maybe 3 minutes using carbon fiber parts instead of wood

The ideal copter for achive the longest fly time is a copter that fram+motor+electronic has same weight as the battery ... so I guess for your copter you could use much bigger battery and increase the fly time up to 15min

Anyhow ... how long it should fly, it is uo to you ... I can use my micro copter with camera for take quick aerial video even if I have just 6min out of a little 900mAh 2S

At the end the most important aspect is the quality of the video that you can get and how easy it is to control in all the possible usable weather situation

Other way to increase fly time is to use bigger prop, you may go doe 1 inch bigger prop, but, I see you have tons of prop already, and bigger prop cause more vibrations

 

[BankNYank!]

So I did a little test on my flight times:

One 25C 3S 2200 = 5mins

One 20C 3S 2650 = 8mins

Two 25C 3S 2200's = 10mins (ran in parallel)

Getting an extra 3mins out of an extra 450mah tells me that's the right battery for my quad. I may get a little better times if I stepped up to a 20C 3S 3000 but I don't really have the room inside my quad for it. The 2650 is pushing the available space as it is.

I think the reason the two 25C 3S 2200's only gave me 2 additional minutes over the 2650 is because of all the extra weight. The quad seemed to perform well but at the end of the flight the motors and esc's were a little hotter than I like them to be.

 

[e_lm_70]

2200 5m
2650 8m
4400 10m

These numbers sound a bit strange
2200 battery should have done much more then 5m since being lighter then the 2650 that does 8m ... it should have done over 6m30sec

Anyhow 8min fly time is enough for make aerial ... you can always have multiple batteries and do multiple videos ... as long as change the battery is few seconds, it is not really an issue ... unless you have some special needs

 

[BankNYank!]

2200 5m
2650 8m
4400 10m

These numbers sound a bit strange
2200 battery should have done much more then 5m since being lighter then the 2650 that does 8m ... it should have done over 6m30sec

Anyhow 8min fly time is enough for make aerial ... you can always have multiple batteries and do multiple videos ... as long as change the battery is few seconds, it is not really an issue ... unless you have some special needs

I agree, it is a bit odd. I don't have a scale so today I ordered one on Amazon Prime and it will be here in a few business days so I'll add AUW's with each battery setup and retest my flight times. As far as batteries go, I currently have two 2650's and I have two more on the way from HK. They will be here Monday.

I need to put all that on the back burner though because right now I have a bigger problem. I've noticed when flying my quad around the yard that it has developed a bit of a bobble. Very minor so I didn't think much of it. I work a lot of long hours and yesterday was the first day I could get out to the field to really practice with my quad since I built it. So I topped off my batteries and loaded everything up and off I went. I know I get long winded so I'll cut to the chase. Mr. Murphy reached up and slapped me in the face. Up until then I had been proud of myself in the fact that, flying around my yard, I hadn't broken any props. So here I am at my flying field. Bright sun shiny day, gentle breeze, feeling good.... perfect. I release my quad into the wild blue and after about 15 seconds of flying I notice that little bobble again. I fly another maybe 10 seconds and the quad does a diagonal back flip and abruptly smashes itself into the ground upside down breaking two props. It acted as though the left rear motor (m4 on the kk2.1.5) just cut out. I found this to be rather odd and moderately annoying in the fact that I came here to relax and unwind a little. And of course I didn't bring any of my planes with me as backups! So I replaced the broke props and broke zip ties and tried again. After less than a minute, same thing. The motor in question did spend a week lost in the forest before finding its way home and it was a lot hotter than the others so I quickly decided it was the motor so I went home and ordered another one. In the mean time I attached a slightly larger motor of the same brand to the m4 position and set off for some easy flights around the yard. First flight was fine and I was feeling confident the issue was the motor for sure. Guess what. It happened again. This time it was low to the ground and it landed upright and I was able to keep the motors spinning. In this state, when trying to lift off again, all the other motors seem to work fine and the craft rocks back and to the left favoring m4. It's like that motor isn't spinning up enough. I'm going to order another esc tonight because I like to have extra parts on hand anyway, but I'm wondering, does this sound like a bad esc or is something not right with my FC?

 

[e_lm_70]

Very strange indeed

A weak motor should not cause a crash ... but yes it may make things more problematic

Possibly your set up use too much gain ... you may try to reduce the I factor especially for autolevel. Only the I factor can cause a flip over for an accumulated error

A bad ESC ... or a bad connection could make an unrecoverable situation in the air ... still you use quite new ESC so, I had not any ESC failing in the recent years (in the early day of brushless I had my experiences )

What you may try is to put your copter on ropes ... so it will be fixed over 1 axis, and it will not crash no matter what) ... in this way you can check more in deep what is going one without any risk of damage

 

[BankNYank!]

I haven't adjusted any of the settings over stock settings. The only settings I have messed with at all are the initial setup stuff as outlined in the user manual.

The flip doesn't look as though it is being caused by over throttle. The left rear drops as a result of that motors rpm's suddenly dropping. I don't know if this makes the issue any clearer but I'm trying! lol

As a test I took my new kk2.0 board I originally ordered for this quad and soldered the pins on it and hooked it up to my quad. I went through a whole 2200 and no issues whatsoever. Today is a windy, rainy dismal day so I can't really fly much between rain showers to further test if this theory is true. But if there is something going on with my kk2.1.5 board what could it be? What could cause the left rear (m4) motor to suddenly throttle back to like less than half the power of the other three and stay there until I set the throttle back to zero for a few seconds then raise the throttle?

Moving forward, I ordered an ReadytoFlyer 2.6 (APM2.6) from RTFQ today. I know I shouldn't be ordering upgrades until I get the current issue sorted out but RTFQ takes so long to ship I figure, with your guys help, I'll have this sorted by the time the new FC gets here! Below is a list with links to what I purchased.

ReadytoFlyer 2.6

3DR Radio Telemetry Kit 915Mhz

uBlox 6H GPS W/ Mounting backplane and Compass

RTFlyer Power Module w/UBEC (without XT60 connectors shown)

I want to be able to fly with position hold and loiter and in the future I'd like to mess around with way points like in this Flite Test video. Did I order all the right stuff???

 

[e_lm_70]

APM2.6 is a bad pick up

You should have took the 2.5.2 that has a mag on board

Now you need to get an external mag too, else it is useless (I see you got the GPS with compass ... so you are fine )

Some guys are reporting that APM board are like a bomb, at any point it get upsidedown and crash, without any reason :black_eyed: ... I still have to maiden my new APM 2.5.2 got in discount for 44$ weeks ago.

 

[BankNYank!]

So APM 2.6 was a bad choice? I created a new thread to try to get some input on the 2.5.2 but I only got one response so I made my best guess. I figured there was a good reason for them moving the mag off board and I've always felt the less "extras" on a board the better. Less issues with other parts of the board and less things to go wrong. If one of those extras fail you only have to replace that piece if it's off board rather than the whole board if it's on board. This is just my opinion from an electronics background not from dealing with any of this stuff. This is all new to me.

As far as the unexpected flip on the APM whats the failure rate? And have you seen anything that causes or fixes this issue?

Thank you for all of your advice and time!

 

[FinalGlideAus]

The APM boards are very well respected and capable FC's. They have CASA approval for use in commercial operations in my country which they wouldn't have if they had a tendency of falling out of the sky. They are quite complicated to setup which is the cause of most crashes (from incorrect setup) but they are complicated because they can do so much. This is not a Naza, if you tell it to do something stupid it will do it. This is one reason why they can be daunting for people new to multi's. The only thing that can vary is the quality of the board itself as there are plenty of different manufacturers. 3DR and RCTimer are the ones with the best rep but Paul at whitespy is also known for his quality so I would be happy to use one of his boards. I would be looking elsewhere for the cause personally. As a camera platform or autonomous vehicle they are hard to beat and one of the most stable boards around so apart from you having to learn on one, I would say you have chosen a great board if you wish to do the pevious things I mentioned. The only thing they don't do so well is acro flying but they were never intended to do that anyway. You can change the setup so it will do acro but it is still limited in its ability.

For a Multirotor the APM 2.6 is better suited than a 2.5. The only difference between them is on a 2.6 there is no mag which is now seperate and on the GPS module but that is a good thing and why they did it. Just like the GPS you want to get the mag up high and away from the multicopter as there are plenty of things on a multicopter that can lead to inaccuracies. Most people still use a 2.5 because you can choose either option but on a multi it is best to change to a 2.6 config anyway.