Next Build Suggestions? / How to pick a good next air frame?

[JasonK]

Limitations:

• Need to be able to keep AUW under 250g.
• Good for newish flier (see video for my last flight)

My Tiny Trainer got crashed enough times getting to where I could keep the plane in the air that it needs to be rebuilt almost 100% (for example: the fuselage is bend were the servos connect, and while trims are still keeping it flying straight, they are fairly strongly trimmed at this point)

Trying to pick out if I should just rebuilt the TT or one of the other sub-250g AUW frames:

Going down the list of minis, limited to ones that should be able to AUW under 250g, here are my notes, looking for any thing that I might be off on here.

Baseline -> the same, this does seem to be the best option to get learning with

• Mighty Mini Tiny Trainer
  • 3/4 channel
  • 200g+ dry (from prior builds - would be really tight to go 4 channel)
  • Obvious rebuilt choice for training, has a 3 and 4 channel options. Known flight characteristics, flies well.

Scale Models ->As far as I can tell the big differences in these are the shape and the 3 vs 4 channel setups (IE pick the look/channel count, otherwise should be fairly similar) not sure how well these would fly compared to the TT.

• Mighty Mini Mustang
  • 4 channel
  • 155g Dry (per page)
• Mighty Mini Corsair
  • 4 channel
  • 155g Dry (per page)
• Mighty Mini Scout
  • 3 channel
  • 114g Dry (per page)
• Mighty Mini Speedster
  • 3 channel
  • 114g Dry (per page)

Only Twin on the list:

• Twin Sparrow
  • 3 channel
  • 158g Dry (per plans)
  • Uses Power Pack H

After multiple crashes, I see how a pusher could be good for learning, however, none of these seem to go into a 4 channel setup, which would limit learning that. These also all seem to be some various level of 'flying wing' in their configuration, some more then others (all using the elevon setup). I am urious if the lack of airfoil on some of these has any significant impacts on how they fly? I figure they probably would fly upside down better as they are 'neutral' airfoil shapes

• Mighty Mini Sparrow [Pusher]
  • 3 channel
  • 170g Dry (per page)
  • can't get balanced with my 2S 850g battery right at the nose, needed to push the nose ~1.5-2in further forward and would need a power extension to get the battery connected to the ESC at that point
• Mighty Mini Arrow [Pusher]
  • 3 channel
  • 170g Dry (per page)
• LongEZ
  • 3 channel
  • 155g Dry (per page)
  • no airfoil
• Mighty Mini F-22 Raptor
  • 3 channel
  • 140g Dry (per page)
  • no airfoil
• FT Pun Jet
  • 3 channel
  • 116g Dry (per plans)
  • no airfoil

 

[JasonK]

I think I am looking for the following (above post was my meanderings going over the options):

1. I would like to find plan that uses a Power Pack H plan that has a wcl in in the trainer or near the trainer end of Sport and is a 4 channel (I don't see one, curious if the community has one or if I should start designing one myself)
2. My son really likes the Sparrow, which appears to have a wcl load in the trainer range, would it be an acceptable trainer?
3. Any unexpected changes I would get from pushing the nose out 1.5in or so, so that I can get balance without adding dead weight?
4. How significantly different is the flight characteristics of the "model" group I have compared to the TT?
5. What is the items I should be looking at to evaluate performance.

Thanks ahead of time for looking at my pondering and any answer/thoughts you have.

 

[Indy durtdigger]

You might check out the resources tab on the forums and see what is available from other forum members. Most of the planes on your list call for 1806 or 2205 motors and the H pack has 1106 motors. Might have some power issues with that tiny of a motor even on the minis only using one motor.

 

[mrjdstewart]

tiny trainer will be very diff that most you have listed. i would stay away from the mini mustang, corsair, due to their speed and difficulty in flying. they are quite twitchy if you put a 2205 on them. the pun jet i would also stay away from as it is very easy to chop your finger off on a launch and if flying with your kid, prob want to keep all your fingers. it is also not a easy plane to fly, crazy roll rate, and very twitchy. the twin sparrow is cool but difficult to build and even more difficult to get electronics correct. also electronics cost 10x more than the plane, it is not cheap. the mini scout and speedster are great planes, easy to build and fly but not really complex and only 3 channel. i use the mini scout myself for teaching both building and flying, i have lost count of the number i have made. simple, easy, stable flyer.

so, if i was you, i would build the arrow. it can be done with an 1806 for mild or 2205 for fun. if you work wing tips correctly you can take off vertically from the ground. it is super easy to build and cheap. i have built more than i can remember, each last for a few months, then dies. usually gets ripped in half. even then though, you can usually glue it back together and support with a popsicle.

my $.02

me

 

[Winston1203]

If you are looking for a good plane with the power pack H you’ll have to go with the dart or modify another airplane to be fitted with the power pack H.

 

[JasonK]

Most of the planes on your list call for 1806 or 2206 motors and the H pack has 1106 motors. Might have some power issues with that tiny of a motor even on the minis only using one motor.

I actually meant using it in the dual motor format. I was looking at that pack for some future ideas and it would be nice to have a plane I could fly it with it while practicing... Right now I have a power pack A. I will try looking at the resources

lots of stuff...

Yup, that is what I was starting to think, looking at all of it, that rebuilding the TT was probably the best next step. The arrow looks like a bank/yank, with no dihedral, so probably not the best first trainer, but does look like an interesting option.

I have been working with electronics almost all my life, not worried about the assembly of the electronics there, but good to note the 'hard to put together' thoughts.

 

[Hai-Lee]

The TT has a lot of potential and a list of alternative parts or even configurations. See; https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?threads/tiny-trainer-modifications-list.57794/

In addition I use 3.7 gram servos successfully in mine and they do really halp to keep the weight down and reduce the load on the BEC.

Just what works for me!

Have fun!

 

[Grifflyer]

I think you could check out my Shrubsmacker it fits your parameters quite well. https://forum.flitetest.com/index.php?threads/shrubsmacker-release.58390/

 

[Merv]

So what is the weight of the components you are planning to use?

 

[Hondo76251]

I'm working on a MM FT Cruiser at the moment. It will have 1108's and be under 250 with FPV gear...

My Dart is also sub 250 and a pretty good FPV flier but I have never been a huge fan of wings, really like traditional planes myself.

 

[JasonK]

@Merv - I have a Power Pack A [18g motor, 28g ESC, 5g/Servo], Spectrum receiver (8g), and 850mAh 2c Lipos (38g).
Which puts me at 92g +5g/servo + ?g prop (so ~113-115g with 4 servos)

I 3D printed the firewall/control horns, they were so light that my scale couldn't give me individual weights, I believe about 1g for the firewall + 2 control horns.

I just built the Sport Wing for the TT and some how ended up ~6 grams heavier before adding the servos/control stuff. I wasn't quite a careful with the hot glue this time, so I suspect that was at least part of the weight difference.
IIRC the sticks of hot glue that I have run 10g each, so if I need 2 sticks of hot glue that leaves me about 100-110g for the foamboard/etc... which means just shy of 1 full sheet of DTFB (so maybe slightly more then 1 if there is a bunch of waste).

 

[Merv]

hot glue that I have run 10g each, so if I need 2 sticks of hot glue.

My goal is 1 stick of hot glue per plane. Hot glue is heavy, a thin bead is all that is necessary.

 

[JasonK]

1 stick is probably doable, I might need to get a better hot glue gun, getting consistent, thin beads with my current one is challenging. I think I did my first TT with 1 or just over 1 stick total.

I also looked at using PVA glue, however it doesn't work foam to foam (the foam is water resistant and it can't dry out - at least in any reasonable time frame), because it ends up lighter then hot glue per volume after drying and is really easy to put thin layers on... but it does mean keeping parts stable for 10-15 minutes were you can use it instead of 90 seconds.

 

[mrjdstewart]

Yup, that is what I was starting to think, looking at all of it, that rebuilding the TT was probably the best next step. The arrow looks like a bank/yank, with no dihedral, so probably not the best first trainer, but does look like an interesting option.

don't fear the wing for lack of dihedral. the arrow glides really good actually and is very difficult to loose orientation on, especially if you paint one side one color and the other another. i understand wanting to fly a 4-channel but learning a good old bank and yank is just as important. plus, this wing is super simple and lots of fun.

happy flying,

me

 

[JasonK]

thanks. I will see about putting an arrow on my list.

I am actually rebuilding my TT right now and seeing if I can find some weight to save, so I can actually get the sport wing under the 250g... After closer inspection, there is a whole lot more foam to the sport wing then the trainer wing. (the under side part covers much more of the wing).

 

[Indy durtdigger]

Why don't you fill out the form and get a permit to fly planes over 250 gram? It doesn't cost anything and the number can be applied to all your models?

 

[JasonK]

Why don't you fill out the form and get a permit to fly planes over 250 gram? It doesn't cost anything and the number can be applied to all your models?

Still trying to figure out http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/air-space-map/ (which is almost useless to understanding what the different zones mean)

 

[Quinnyperks]

Yeah rudders can be pretty pointless.

 

[Indy durtdigger]

Still trying to figure out http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/air-space-map/ (which is almost useless to understanding what the different zones mean)

As with anything the G wienies mess up for us it's confusing. Here is an FAQ link from the outfit that does the registration. There is a link to the form at the bottom of the page. Only asks for basic info and once you have the number it can be applied to any and all models that apply to the rule without having to apply for each plane. https://federaldroneregistration.com/faq

 

[JasonK]

that covers the registration requirements, not the 'ok to fly' zone confusion. I found the contact for the restriction in question and am sending an email for clarification along with my expected/intended flying.

If I am reading the air space map, my kids flying a sub-250g quad in the front yard is breaking the flight restrictions (my house is in what looks like a higher restricted area then the field I was looking at flying at). I am near an airforce base, found the 'can I fly?' contact/form and am filling it out.