nnDLG

rcspaceflight

creator of virtual planes
And here I am thinking about using a NiMH pack for my DLG. I also plan on using steel on mine. ... It's probably going to turn out a hair heavy.
 
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ajsmcs

Junior Member
I didn't add details about the tail feathers yet because the design is still a bit in the air. I know though that the original design I had for the hstab wasn't going to work. It used to have a little riser piece so the elevator could travel down like a traditional DLG but this was a very weak point in the foam board design. Removing that was necessary.

As of now I have the hstab sitting at the end of the boom and the vstab is either going to notch into the arrow in front of the hstab or ????? Not sure yet.

Was it the foam riser itself that kept breaking? Looking at pictures of pro-grade DLGs, they all seem to have a riser made from fancy molded carbon, which is beyond the scope of this project. But - you could take a short section of carbon tube and file off about 1/4 of the way into the side (allowing it to sit flat), then epoxy it onto the tail boom. Then repeat the process again, on top of the first piece. Then you could put a slot into the middle of your hstab, and glue the stab around the top most piece of arrow. Not sure how much weight that might add, but it should at least be strong. (See below)

nnDLG HStab Riser.png


EDIT:

But as I think about it, frankly the whole reason for needing the riser is to give clearance for the elevator when its mounted in front of the vstab, and the only reason its mounted in front of the vstab is because the vstab is mounted at the very end for the sake of clearance for the rudder, and thus does not need a riser.

But if you're not using a rudder, I don't really see a reason why you can't just have them switch places, with the elevator hanging past the end of the tail boom instead. Then you wouldn't need a riser at all, and could just glue the vstab to the side of the tail boom in front of the hstab. If it comes off in a wreck, then its no big deal because its a simple piece of foam with no moving parts. (obviously, you'd need to make sure it still balances out correctly, and that the hstab is still at the correct distance to maintain its flight characteristics)

Personally, I'm still planning on using a rudder so I'm going to continue working out a solution to the riser issue. But just a thought.
 
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flyboa

Elite member
I'm still planning on using a rudder so I'm going to continue working out a solution to the riser issue. But just a thought.

I have used 2 pieces of foam laminated together. Sand a groove to fit onto carbon shaft. After glued on then cover with fiberglass and epoxy. Might try using a piece of balsa next.

image.jpeg
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
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Moderator
Mentor
The typical term used around the DLG community is a "Tail Pylon", and building a simple one that is more durable than the plane is amazingly easy . . . if you use the right parts.

The main core is a small piece of balsa somewhere between 3/8-1/2" square, and about as long as the unmoving part of the H-Stab, grain counter to the long dimension(the grain will need to be vertical when you're done). Add on a dab of Rubbing-alcohol thinned epoxy (yes, epoxy) and a small piece of 12k or 24k carbon tow and you can build it super light -- my 0.1g scale couldn't even register it. I built one a couple of nights ago, and took about an hour's worth of sanding and shaping, another 10 minutes of doing a layup on a piece of shoe-polished packing tape.

Seriously, that's not hard. At all. The only downside is you have to wait for the epoxy to cure, and a simple layup on a piece of packing tape is something ANYBODY can do. I wouldn't hesitate to let a kid do these (with parental supervision, but melted hot glue is more hazardous than any of this stuff)

If you hate unfinished carbon that much and don't mind a 0.1 gram or two (you really should, but . . . ) wrap the balsa cross grain with spiderwire then lightly soak with thinned epoxy.

Guys, I love what you're doing here, but your material restrictions are not making this easier.

A cheap FB glider has already been built, using parts that aren't hard to find (yes, they need to be ordered or picked up at a good LHS, but most good LHS's will have it) and it flies pretty well for a 30' wing and seemed to hold up. The guy who built it didn't get stuck on material restrictions -- carbon strip spar (lighter smaller and makes for a single sheet thick wing), Balsa tail surfaces, and 1/16" ply for a dihedral brace. He sanded the wing instead of beveling and folding it. He then cleaned the wing and covered with packing tape.

By all means, guys, keep building, but I find it frustrating watching y'all struggle to not take the simple solutions others have been using for years out of fear a novice will have learn something new or have to wait for an $5 EBAY order to arrive.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend they bag a new wing, or hotwire cores (neither of which is hard, but the setup is pretty involved), but this kind of work can be done in an evening for next to nothing with almost no experience except how to operate a piece of sandpaper, polish a shoe and stir a mixing stick, it's easier than the hoops you're already jumping through . . . and makes a huge difference in how the final airframe performs.
 

flyboa

Elite member
I am working on a folded wing like Nick's. No spar or ailerons as an experiment.

I saw this technique for the elevator control. I think this was from Vick's DLG build log.

image.jpeg
 

nerdnic

nerdnic.com
Mentor
But if you're not using a rudder, I don't really see a reason why you can't just have them switch places, with the elevator hanging past the end of the tail boom instead. Then you wouldn't need a riser at all, and could just glue the vstab to the side of the tail boom in front of the hstab.

So just to clarify it's not that you could not make it strong enough it's just that it wasn't as straightforward as I wanted to be. I did not necessarily see this as a material limitation but rather how much hassle is worth it.


For your quote, this is the exact thought process I went through :) this is why the H stab has a slot in it currently. The plan is definitely to have it at the end of the boom. This offers a very easy installation and secure connection. You also don't have to worry about the elevator clearance. You do have an issue with rudder though with this configuration. So there isn't a perfect solution yet.

When deciding to move the position of the stabilizers I did research trying to find why the current configuration is used on all DLGs. I could not find anything where a DLG had the hstab aft of the vertical. Of course this makes me ask myself "why?" I can really only think of two reasons, one being that you create a new problem if you cut the rudder in half and two you really want the vstab to be furthest from the wings. The shorter this distance the less stable you are on launch. As you rotate and release your DLG will continue to rotate more severely if you don't have enough distance between the wing and the stabilizer. You'll yaw too much.

Other than those two things I can't really think of a reason to not switch them.
 
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Mid7night

Jetman
Mentor
Guys, I love what you're doing here, but your material restrictions are not making this easier.

A cheap FB glider has already been built, using parts that aren't hard to find (yes, they need to be ordered or picked up at a good LHS, but most good LHS's will have it) and it flies pretty well for a 30' wing and seemed to hold up.

I've also done this, several times over with different materials every time... I understand your frustration, but this experimentation is part of the fun! Of course we know it could be done 'better' with more purposeful materials - there's a reason those materials have been found to be the best for what they do - but the point of this is not that.

Sure, carbon isn't that hard to work with...once you know what you're doing. Sure, most of these builders by this point probably have more than enough skill and raw materials accumulated to try other more advanced techniques...but that's 'cuz they've been at it for a while.

The point of this isn't to make a FB-DLG that will compete in F3K competitions (not as I see it anyway)...The point of this is to open up a class of flying to someone who 1) Has ZERO DLG flying experience, and 2) Has ZERO carbon/glass building experience. I actually did this myself 2 years ago, with great success, and V2 was even better, but it took someone with the dedication (and fanbase :p) of Nic to take it to the next level and develop it into something repeatable and accessible to the FT community.

That's pretty awesome.
 

nerdnic

nerdnic.com
Mentor
The typical term used around the DLG community is a "Tail Pylon", and building a simple one that is more durable than the plane is amazingly easy . . . if you use the right parts.

The main core is a small piece of balsa somewhere between 3/8-1/2" square, and about as long as the unmoving part of the H-Stab, grain counter to the long dimension(the grain will need to be vertical when you're done). Add on a dab of Rubbing-alcohol thinned epoxy (yes, epoxy) and a small piece of 12k or 24k carbon tow and you can build it super light -- my 0.1g scale couldn't even register it. I built one a couple of nights ago, and took about an hour's worth of sanding and shaping, another 10 minutes of doing a layup on a piece of shoe-polished packing tape.

Seriously, that's not hard. At all. The only downside is you have to wait for the epoxy to cure, and a simple layup on a piece of packing tape is something ANYBODY can do. I wouldn't hesitate to let a kid do these (with parental supervision, but melted hot glue is more hazardous than any of this stuff)

If you hate unfinished carbon that much and don't mind a 0.1 gram or two (you really should, but . . . ) wrap the balsa cross grain with spiderwire then lightly soak with thinned epoxy.

Guys, I love what you're doing here, but your material restrictions are not making this easier.

A cheap FB glider has already been built, using parts that aren't hard to find (yes, they need to be ordered or picked up at a good LHS, but most good LHS's will have it) and it flies pretty well for a 30' wing and seemed to hold up. The guy who built it didn't get stuck on material restrictions -- carbon strip spar (lighter smaller and makes for a single sheet thick wing), Balsa tail surfaces, and 1/16" ply for a dihedral brace. He sanded the wing instead of beveling and folding it. He then cleaned the wing and covered with packing tape.

By all means, guys, keep building, but I find it frustrating watching y'all struggle to not take the simple solutions others have been using for years out of fear a novice will have learn something new or have to wait for an $5 EBAY order to arrive.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend they bag a new wing, or hotwire cores (neither of which is hard, but the setup is pretty involved), but this kind of work can be done in an evening for next to nothing with almost no experience except how to operate a piece of sandpaper, polish a shoe and stir a mixing stick, it's easier than the hoops you're already jumping through . . . and makes a huge difference in how the final airframe performs.

Thanks for the correction on the pylon, that makes more sense than riser :p

The process you described just to make this pylon though is more involved than making my entire DLG. I think using 'everyday' materials is part of what makes this design exciting. If making a carbon/balsa/hotwire/glassed mashup DLG was as easy as you describe, would one not be in every hobbyist household? I think the spread of the foam board bug that FT has spurred is proof that people are looking for an 'every mans' solution. More advanced performing planes have been around for decades compared to what most people fly now, but there is a reason why those more advanced designs never really exploded in popularity. In general people aren't really willing to invest in all the materials and time required to do something like bag your own wing.

The cheap FB glider you linked is pretty sweet! Looks to fly pretty nice too. However, it's not in the same class for what I'm going for. I'm trying to make a nearly full size DLG at over 50" span. Will it work out the way I'm hoping? I don't know yet. But I do know that starting this project I got a big "Definitely won't work" from some of the experienced DLGers. That turned into a "Maybe it works, kinda" to "Well it might 'work' but not very well" and now we are at "It will work but you can get better performance with X" All that's missing is for that to turn into "Holy crap it worked!"

I went through a similar process with my speedwing design. And now you can make your own, VERY cheap, beastly DTF plane that performs just as good if not better than anything except a full carbon pylon racer. And it's foam. Made from every mans materials. :)

Even outside all that, though, is this process. I enjoy figuring things out. The idea that the best way to do something has already been figured out is not ideology I subscribe to. This thread still being active all this time, drawing new members into the fold, testing, sharing experiences. This is all just as important to me as the end result.
 

Mid7night

Jetman
Mentor
... rudder ... you really want the vstab to be furthest from the wings.
...
Other than those two things I can't really think of a reason to not switch them.

No need to think further, those are THE two reasons not to switch them...on a competition ship. In DLG competition, control input is your enemy because surface deflection = drag = lost energy = shorter time aloft. Most pros will do as little as possible with the ailerons, turning mostly with tiny rudder inputs.

But those are not really concerns of this aircraft. Not that you don't want the best performance out of your design, but you're still going to get a great DLG flying experience with just aileron/elevator ....which is basically how I flew my carbon DLG anyway since that's what I know, and I had a blast! :p

To that point, I don't see (much) reason for even having dihedral. If you've got full span flaperons and elevator control, you could simplify the wing to have a single solid full span spar - eliminating the aluminum weight as well. Just a thought.

That being said, if you DO want rudder, and to mount your horizontal on a pylon, a double-layer glued FB post served me well. It definitely was not the weak point of my design.
 

rcspaceflight

creator of virtual planes
Of course it's easy to build a cheap, durable DLG if it only has a 30" wingspan. But where is the fun in a little guy?

Right now I'm debating what wingspan to go with for my next attempt. I think Nic is right with going with a 50" wingspan. Nice and big for a more floaty result. It's pushing the limits with G forces. But it's not pushing those limits too far. Maybe 60" would be better, but maybe that's starting to get awkward to swing around.

(Sorry if wingspan size was already covered in this thread, I didn't read 100% of it.)

The only restrictions I'm giving myself is price and availability of materials. I'm thinking of using a plastic bottle for the nose. But I haven't gotten that far in the design yet. I do know I'm going to try bamboo for the wingspar and fuselage rod. Bamboo has about the same tensile strength as aluminum. Which is about half of steel. Which is no where near how strong carbon fiber is though. But bamboo skewers Gorilla Glued together and wrapped in electrical tape should work. I guess I'll find out.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
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Thanks for the correction on the pylon, that makes more sense than riser :p

That wasn't a dig on using the wrong terms. When re-inventing the wheel (I see nothing wrong with that, but I also don't see an issue with peaking at the old plans when you do), there's some value in using the terms the traditional community uses -- you don't have to follow their final methods, but if you speak the same language and search the same terms, you can see what is available.

The process you described just to make this pylon though is more involved than making my entire DLG.

I disagree . . . and that's my point. This method takes a little LONGER but it's no harder or less approachable.

So what if it adds an evening to something that used to take 5 minutes but doesn't work? No this isn't fast, but it is functional and easy enough anyone can do it.

Doing a simple cut-shape-epoxy (with or without the carbon tow) of the pylon can solve your problem of a sound pylon in a short evening's worth of work. Epoxy, is certainly in every hobbyist household and if not, a quick trip to lowes can fix that. Balsa? Why shouldn't a hobbyist have some on hand? Pick up some 1/2" square sticks from Michaels or Hobby Lobby the cut and glue them together into a larger strip with Elmers glue. It's a good material to have on hand. As for carbon, you can do it without, but it will be heavier, you just need the spectra fishing line to do it. I can pick up each of those items within 10 minutes of me at places that don't carry Horizon RTFs. The carbon is a week away via EBAY (and yeah, I have a lot of it in my shop, and you may be surprised how many hobbyist have it in theirs.

You ENTIRELY missed my point on bagging and hot-wire cut. I DON'T recommend a novice take that up. There IS good reason why it's not in every hobbyist's home, but if builds involve those doesn't mean you should ignore them when looking for solutions to your troubles



Nic, I'm NOT telling you to NOT design a DLG. I'm not even telling you to not use DTFB -- Never have. I'm not telling you it can't be done -- I just showed you it can (and a shorter wing doesn't make it a lower class DLG).



I'm suggesting to look at what has been done with more than the contempt of "it's too complicated" without ever doing it yourself. It's misunderstanding most of the techniques and degrading the everyman to the corner of hotglue and razor blades . . . well, and Carbon arrow shafts . . . well, and aluminum stripping . . . well, and transparency film . . .

There's more in there that just takes a bit more elbow grease and some cheap-and-easy to get materials that Walmart doesn't carry.


Nic, Brother, if you won't take advise from those who have, BUILD OUT A FULL, MODERN DLG. Then approach this build with what you've learned. You'll be shocked at the subtle improvements (like the wooden wrapped tail pylon, shorter wings for lower stresses or balsa tails) you now have in your toolbag that you can easily teach to the everyman without scaring him away.


I had more to say about the rest of your reply, but I don't want to dilute that point. You've professed you want to be in that top corner -- fixed wing, advanced build -- right? You're limiting the "everyman" in your mind to what they can already do now, instead of what they CAN do when the expert (it's your build, so that would be you) shows them the simple trick to doing the next step better. So what if it takes a bit more work?
 

nerdnic

nerdnic.com
Mentor
I had more to say about the rest of your reply, but I don't want to dilute that point. You've professed you want to be in that top corner -- fixed wing, advanced build -- right? You're limiting the "everyman" in your mind to what they can already do now, instead of what they CAN do when the expert (it's your build, so that would be you) shows them the simple trick to doing the next step better. So what if it takes a bit more work?

I think you make a good point, Dan. Part of my focus with this design is to make it accessible to anyone interested. To do that I see these points of balance:

- Dollar investment
- Complication of electronics
- Ease of build/flight

If either of these items is disproportionately large then you immediately start to discount people from participating, not because they can't physically do it, but because it's no longer worth the personal resources (time, money, sanity, etc) I'm basing this off what I've seen around the hobby and even in my own designs. "I'll build that one when my skills/piloting/monies are better" There is often a sense of "one day" in this hobby. Everyone is at a different place in life and this hobby but I've tried to keep that in mind while designing this thing. Maybe too much so.

The materials angle is one that I've tried to hold my ground on for this reason. Partially because it's still in test phase and I don't wanna commit money to materials that are more expensive if I don't have to. But I hear you brother, I don't mean to come off pig headed or anything. I just enjoy figuring things out on my own, maybe to a fault.

Thanks for sticking with me, I think the end design will be better for it.
 

nerdnic

nerdnic.com
Mentor
No need to think further, those are THE two reasons not to switch them...on a competition ship. In DLG competition, control input is your enemy because surface deflection = drag = lost energy = shorter time aloft. Most pros will do as little as possible with the ailerons, turning mostly with tiny rudder inputs.

But those are not really concerns of this aircraft. Not that you don't want the best performance out of your design, but you're still going to get a great DLG flying experience with just aileron/elevator ....which is basically how I flew my carbon DLG anyway since that's what I know, and I had a blast! :p

To that point, I don't see (much) reason for even having dihedral. If you've got full span flaperons and elevator control, you could simplify the wing to have a single solid full span spar - eliminating the aluminum weight as well. Just a thought.

That being said, if you DO want rudder, and to mount your horizontal on a pylon, a double-layer glued FB post served me well. It definitely was not the weak point of my design.

Thanks for confirming that! You make a good point too, without rudder you can ditch the dihedral.. hmm. Can you get carbon that long for a decent price?
 

nerdnic

nerdnic.com
Mentor
Of course it's easy to build a cheap, durable DLG if it only has a 30" wingspan. But where is the fun in a little guy?

Right now I'm debating what wingspan to go with for my next attempt. I think Nic is right with going with a 50" wingspan. Nice and big for a more floaty result. It's pushing the limits with G forces. But it's not pushing those limits too far. Maybe 60" would be better, but maybe that's starting to get awkward to swing around.

(Sorry if wingspan size was already covered in this thread, I didn't read 100% of it.)

The only restrictions I'm giving myself is price and availability of materials. I'm thinking of using a plastic bottle for the nose. But I haven't gotten that far in the design yet. I do know I'm going to try bamboo for the wingspar and fuselage rod. Bamboo has about the same tensile strength as aluminum. Which is about half of steel. Which is no where near how strong carbon fiber is though. But bamboo skewers Gorilla Glued together and wrapped in electrical tape should work. I guess I'll find out.

I didn't mean to talk down to the smaller DLG. You won't be able to launch it as high or (in theory) get the level of performance compared to a larger one though. I just think solving the structural issues at that size are not really an issue or challenge. Going for the 50" size is to attempt a high level of performance and with that comes the additional design challenges (my favorite part).

Are you planning to run bbq down the whole wing? Like normal 12" skewers or the beefy yard long spears?
 

rcspaceflight

creator of virtual planes
I didn't mean to talk down to the smaller DLG. You won't be able to launch it as high or (in theory) get the level of performance compared to a larger one though. I just think solving the structural issues at that size are not really an issue or challenge. Going for the 50" size is to attempt a high level of performance and with that comes the additional design challenges (my favorite part).

Are you planning to run bbq down the whole wing? Like normal 12" skewers or the beefy yard long spears?

I was replying to CraftyDan sharing a link to a 30" DLG. That's easy to do cheap.

I think I'm going to go after a 60" wingspan and I think a 6" chord. I'll probably make my airfoil taller than most DLGs though. I think I'm going to make it more of a hybrid because I'll probably high-start it too.

I am going to use regular 12" skewers. I hope to stagger them and glue them together into a long boom. Maybe 6-8 thick. Not sure on how thick to make it yet. I'm not 100% sure what glue to use. I think I'd want a flexible glue since bamboo is flexible. I'll probably just use Gorilla Glue and hope for the best.

I was thinking of using 3-4 bamboo skewers thick for the wing spar. However I use MIG welding wire for push rods and I just tied some to a 10lb dumbbell and it can handle it perfectly fine. I even stood on the dumbbell, put a handle on the other end, and I can't break the wire for the life of me. ... Okay I probably could, but my handle is thin and it's hurting my hand.

Anyways, right now I plan on using a steel washer at the T point where the wings meet the fuselage, wrap MIG welding wire around the washer at the four points, and glue in the wire down the entire length of the bamboo rods. In my experience glue doesn't stick to steel the best, but if you have a lot of gluing surface area then it's fine. And 20+ inches of gluing surface is a lot. So the wire will be tensile strength, but it's extremely flexible. That's what the bamboo skewers are for.

My only concern is that gluing a mass of skewers together isn't going to be as good as solid bamboo. (Or that the sheer volume/number of skewers is going to raise the price to something unacceptable.)

Hopefully I'll get far enough on mine to start a new thread on it soon.
 

Mid7night

Jetman
Mentor
Thanks for confirming that! You make a good point too, without rudder you can ditch the dihedral.. hmm. Can you get carbon that long for a decent price?

I don't think I've ever seen a CF tube or rod come any longer than 1m (~39"), but you could just use two 1m tubes and overlap them in the center, you need the most rigidity at the root anyway.

I get all my CF tubes from AloftHobbies: https://alofthobbies.com/carbon-fiber-tubes.html. Yes, you have to pay shipping, but if you order anything else, or several tubes at once, it easily beats local shop prices (that I've seen). My LHS charges $10 for a 1mx5mm tube.


For installation in your 51" span wing, if you go simple and don't cut the 1m tubes at all, you'll have 35" of overlap double-tube and 12" at each wingtip of single-tube. Wrap the ends and the center with reinforced strapping tape and you've got one beefy cheap spar. Yes, it'll be offset fore/aft at the tips by one tube diameter on either side, but for these purposes that's not really a big deal. One handy thing about this setup; you can cut the span down to 40" and go single-tube spar - you'll lose a little 'float', but it also doubles as a good sloper - or you can slide the two tubes apart a bit more and easily get a 60" span for some real nice 1.5m DLG training. :cool:
 

rcspaceflight

creator of virtual planes
The MIG welding wire I have is .035" thick.

On second thought I'll try to find thinner wire so it's easier to bend, and wrap the bamboo with the wire. Try to weave it all together so the wire ties together the bamboo, the bamboo keeps the wires shape. Try to find a balance of perfect harmony of the two materials working together into a super material. Then slop on some glue and wrap it all in electrical tape.

Maybe that's getting into a more difficult build. But I like to think it'll be a different build skill, not a more difficult one.
 

ajsmcs

Junior Member
I disagree . . . and that's my point. This method takes a little LONGER but it's no harder or less approachable.

So what if it adds an evening to something that used to take 5 minutes but doesn't work? No this isn't fast, but it is functional and easy enough anyone can do it.

Doing a simple cut-shape-epoxy (with or without the carbon tow) of the pylon can solve your problem of a sound pylon in a short evening's worth of work. Epoxy, is certainly in every hobbyist household and if not, a quick trip to lowes can fix that. Balsa? Why shouldn't a hobbyist have some on hand? Pick up some 1/2" square sticks from Michaels or Hobby Lobby the cut and glue them together into a larger strip with Elmers glue. It's a good material to have on hand. As for carbon, you can do it without, but it will be heavier, you just need the spectra fishing line to do it. I can pick up each of those items within 10 minutes of me at places that don't carry Horizon RTFs. The carbon is a week away via EBAY (and yeah, I have a lot of it in my shop, and you may be surprised how many hobbyist have it in theirs.

Do you have a good link for a how-to on this? I'm having a hard time visualizing what you're describing. I've got no issues attempting it the "right" way.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
Not "right" but "works" ;)

Off hand, no. I've done it for three builds (DL-50, Binary 900, and on the first version of my scratch built FrankEncore) and seen it several others, but a quick glance at both instruction sets, they gloss over it as if it's a standard practice :p

I've seen it illustrated in several build logs for those and other DLGs and when I get a chance to take a look at them I'll post links to any good illistrations I find. If not, it's not hard and not only is the material is on hand, most of it is still laying out on my bench. It's cheap, so I may just cut/sand/layup one and YT it.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
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I was replying to CraftyDan sharing a link to a 30" DLG. That's easy to do cheap.

. . . and I think you're both discounting the performance of that little guy ;)

To address the question directly, the limit of DLGs have been at 1500mm because F3K says so. You'll only sell the pricier birds to people who "NEED" them, and that's the guy who doesn't want to be edged out of competition.

In practical standards, though, FAI didn't pick that number . . . um . . . out of the air.

1500mm is just about right. I start a launch with the left tip on the ground and the right tip in my hand just above my waist. As I start the turn, my arm doesn't raise/fall much, and it shouldn't -- that's one way to hook it, and on older DLGs, snap the tip. Moving from a smaller airframe to a full sized ship took a few launches to get adjusted to -- the steps and sequence didn't change but it was easy to hook it because the starting point felt weird. Longer wing, more awkward launch. I'd rather not toss much more than 1500mm.

This airframe is already seeing issues with overstressing and every mm you add, the forces MULTIPLY by that extra lever arm. In that respect Archimedes was dead on right.