Oh Look, It's Another 'Help Me With My Versacopter" Thread!

[defhermit]

Hey there all,
After a lot of help from members here (through highjacking others' threads) I've been able to get my new Versacopter in the air! It hovers somewhat stably and I can direct it in various directions the way it is supposed to move given my input. In other words, I've tested the controls and it pivots when I use the "rudder", tilts up and down when I use "elevator", strafes when I use "ailerons", and goes up and down based on my throttle position. I'm flying in horizon mode, but I've popped it in to what I believe is "acro" mode enough to see what that is.

Here's a terribly photographed glamour shot of what I call the ConnQuad 1.0 (based on my last name).



As you can see I have the camera-holder attachment sitting there on the front and have my old-ass gopro strapped down with crude velcro straps. This leads me to my first question.

How should I attach my GoPro to this mount?
My current solution is not super stable, I can wiggle it around by hand. While I haven't seen any wobble in the first video I recorded, I basically just hovered. I'm assuming that looseness will be no good if I expect to whip this thing around turns at high speed. I have concerns about it just being exposed as well. While I have the big complete plastic enclosure that I could use to hold the camera, at this point I'm assuming that that is not worth the weight. The enclosure weighs more than the camera, if I remember correctly.

You can also see from the picture that I have a 2200 3 cell battery on there. So far I haven't purchased any batteries exclusively for the vc, but I have about half a dozen in this size range that I've used for ft versa fixed wings, storch, and my newish ft explorer. So far they seem okay, but that leads me to my second question:

What sort of batteries should I be using?
For now I'm just going to use these 3 cell ones I have, but what would be the ideal 3 cell? Or 4 cell, when I get to that?

On to the next question...

Can someone just tell me what I should set my PIDs to? I have no idea how to dive into that.
I have the powerpack that flitetest defaults to when you purchase the versacopter kit, I believe E? 12 amp escs, Naze 32 rev6, running without oneshot125 (can't seem to get that to work, seems like I have to reflash my escs themselves, don't want to get into that yet although I do have an arduino board)....

Oh, and at least one more question...

Can you tell me what I need in order to utilize the FPV camera I already have?
I obviously want to get FPV going on this thing. For now the GoPro is just for recording. I'll try to use that directly for FPV in the future, but I thought I would like to try to use the only video transmitter system I currently have. It looks like this:



I got it when the FPV Vapor with goggles was on sale at Horizon. Came with Fat Shark goggles. I realize that the range is pretty garbage but I was hoping I could use this for a bit while working out how to upgrade. What do I need to do to power this on my versa? The versa build videos mention patching other systems to the PDB in passing, but I have no idea where to start with that. This camera successfully "just plugs in" to the Vapor and my Sport Cub S, both tiny planes that use those 1s thumb batteries. Can I just use one of those somehow?

One last question, I promise.
How should I upgrade?
1)If I want to get a better FPV system going, what should I get? Can I go any further with my Teleporter headset by only upgrading the transmitter side of the deal, or does any improvement require an upgrade on both sides?

2) Any other upgrades you think I should do? Things you learned with this kit, that I could implement now? I have some spare money this month to spend on this thing and I want to enjoy it this summer.

Thanks in advance for any advice and thanks for reading.

 

[PsyBorg]

Usually for the go pro mounting people have used that foam the motors came in and cut a slight angle to give the camera a little tilt so you are not looking at the ground as you fly. there are custom made protective covers that can be used as well along with various hard point style mounts that also tilt. Some have even 3d printed their own mounts. Simple you tube or Google searches should provide plenty of ideas.

As for batteries the 3s 2200 is what the Versa was designed to use or the most part to learn to fly with. Should you find the need to buy new ones I suggest you look at 3 things and make your decision. First how are you going to fly? Race, Free style. That's where weight of the batteries comes into play. Second are you going to stick with just 3s batteries or jump into the big boy pen and go 4s. Either way I recommend getting a battery with 45c or higher ratings as you will outgrow the stock 20c / 25c batteries in short order as most do. On that note I do fly daily on the six 3s 2200 20c batteries I have and enjoy flying a lot. I have not got the opportunity to compete in any racing or to even fly with someone as I have not found anyone in my little country town that does yet. My goal is however to switch to 4s and have setups for both racing and free style even though the Vesa is a tad on the heavy side for either. All in all it is still one awesome flying machine.

As far as the FPV gear there are too many makers and set ups to recommend something. There are however many tried and true things like the fatshark all in one kits with matched components. Personally I use the Eachine matched 700tvl camera and 200 mx tx and view with a 7 inch boscam monitor. I am very happy with the TX and camera set up specially once I got a matched set of circular polarized antennas (this is a MUST for any system you choose to replace the sad whip style antennas usually provided with any FPV gear) I am looking and have FPV goggles on my to buy list but that is after I finish my plans for a 4s upgrade that is nearly complete on my Versa and I acquire enough batteries to fly with.

The little camera setup you have will probably be enough to get you in the air doing FPV flight. However I don't think it will give you a good enough experience to fly safely once you get into faster flight and such. If you fly predominately indoors Id say look for a 25mw system. If you will do close proximity a 25mw and really good antenna system will be fine. For most 200mw tx is best as it has enough power for moderate penetration of wooded areas with lesser reflections in places with a lot of buildings or walls. The 600mw gear is for the serious flyers and the legality of using them varies place to place.

Again a lot of what you ask is a personal preference thing and the only way you will know is to watch product reviews or talk with people using specific gear you are interested in or somehow try before you buy gear once you have a better idea of what you want to do as a pilot.

GL and fly safe.

 

[Darkback2]

Where to start...

Gopro Mount
Ok, so your gopro mount...First off, I do not have a versacopter, but they seam like fairly good quads. The gopro platform is just a flat plate with holes in it for adding straps for your gopro...If you have any spare foam you can cut some out and use it to increase traction under the camera. Another thing you could do is look for a strap like this one. It protects your lens and straps your camera down. I would look for ways to loop it around the flat plat and foam. Because it attaches to your lens the camera should stay put pretty well.

I have access to a 3d printer. If you can access one then a quick search of thingy verse came up with this gopro wedge . If you don't have access you can upload it to shapeways.com and they can print it for you.

Finally you can always add some industrial strength Velcro to both your camera plate, and the bottom of your camera. If you combine that and the strap over the top your camera won't move at all.

Tuning PIDs
As for rates, Unfortunately I am using a Graupner, that said, the stock rates that came with that have worked pretty well on a variety of quadcopters. I have grown into making a few adjustments, but I am not really sure if they were for the better or not yet. There is a great video by several people on setting up PIDs on youtube. This one is by Joshua Bardwell. He is a pretty cool guy that I have been following on YouTube to learn how to fly my quad better. There is more stuff out there by rotor riot, and steeel...Basically what I have heard and tried is dropping I and D to 0. Lower P and then raise it slowly until the quad starts shaking. Then lower it until the shaking just stops. Then do the same with I and D. that would be your starting point. Then adjust everything one thing at a time by little bits until the quadcopter handles nicely.

Batteries
3s is fine and as far as I am concerned powerful enough, I do use 4s when I carry a very heavy camera, but for the most part I do the overwhelming majority of my flying on 3s. This is strictly a personal thing so do as you like in that department. Just make sure all of your parts are setup to take the higher voltage that comes along with 4s. I am currently using 1300 - 1500 mah 3s batteries on my 5". That seems like a pretty good trade off between flight time and weight. Again I use 1400mah 4s batteries when I carry my 360 camera.

FPV Goggles
Your goggles are probably fine. You can pick up an fpv transmitter for less than $40 or so. I have this one on my phantom, and this one on my Martian 5". They both work really well and have decent range. I upgraded the antenna on both of them to cloverleafs.

If you want to use the fpv setup you already have you can just hotglue it down to the top of your quad. You'll have to power it using a different battery, or tapping power off of a regulator. I believe the versacopter pdb has a 5 volt out.

Finally your headset...The teleporters have relatively low resolution, but...depending on your personal preference they could be just fine. I personally think goggles are an investment that you will have with you for a long time. I got a set of boscams a while ago at this point and really I got lucky in that the ones that I got fit over my glasses. They aren't the best or the sharpest, but I have figured out how to make the most of them so I'm happy. I also can't really afford anything else at this point. About a year ago I picked up the quanum v2 headset, now on sale for ~$40. They are heavy on my face, but again they fit my glasses. I keep them around for giving people rides. The resolution isn't bad and honestly...they work.

I hope this post is helpful. Have fun flying!

DB

 

[Habakkukk]

Dirt cheap fpv setup:
- 200mw tx
- cheap cmos camera

At the time of this posting both the camera and the tx will cost you less than $20 shipped and better yet, they run off 12v so as long as you are using a 3s setup all you need to do to get this thing working is connect the yellow wires together and solder the power leads directly to any unregulated power pad (not sure how the versa pd is set up, it may have a filtered 12v out so if it does I would use that).

Anyways I would recommend losing that beefy GoPro and upgrading to a newer (lighter) one or going with a mobius or just removing it completely. It's important to find a good power-to-weight ratio before you tune your pids, and you will be significantly underpowered with all that weight on top of your quad while running 3s. (Im not saying switch to 4s, I highly recommend 3s until you can get a feel for flying a quad fpv). Once you have a good flying weight established then it's time to tune. The guys above me mentioned the most tried and true method (start with p until just before you get the shakes, move to I until just before it gets "twitchy" and smooth everything out with d) when you increase your rates (you will want to when you get better at flying) you will have to tune it all over, and any significant weight gains or drops or power gains or drops will require a retune as well. Hope this helps!

 

[defhermit]

Thanks for the responses, all. I'll probably reply to specific stuff later, but another question popped into my mind.

I'm using the OrangeRx R615X receiver:
https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=65950

It has these two little ass antennae, so I just kinda squished them through two tiny holes in the top plate of the versacopter. It's working okay so far but I'm sure there's a reason people normally have longer antennae sticking up out the back of the quad. So...

Is this receiver sufficient for this aircraft?
If not, which should I get? I'd like to keep using my Spektrum 5E transmitter, but I'm willing to spend more and get a "real" Spektrum receiver if I need to. If this receiver is okay, do I need to / how do I extend these antennae so I can attach them to longer kinda-stiff "arms" like I see on most quads? In the versacopter build video Josh attaches his antennae to a pair of zip ties arranged in a "V" on the back of the versa. I'd kind of just like it to look like that.

 

[defhermit]

Dirt cheap fpv setup:
- 200mw tx
- cheap cmos camera

At the time of this posting both the camera and the tx will cost you less than $20 shipped and better yet, they run off 12v so as long as you are using a 3s setup all you need to do to get this thing working is connect the yellow wires together and solder the power leads directly to any unregulated power pad (not sure how the versa pd is set up, it may have a filtered 12v out so if it does I would use that).

Anyways I would recommend losing that beefy GoPro and upgrading to a newer (lighter) one or going with a mobius or just removing it completely. It's important to find a good power-to-weight ratio before you tune your pids, and you will be significantly underpowered with all that weight on top of your quad while running 3s. (Im not saying switch to 4s, I highly recommend 3s until you can get a feel for flying a quad fpv). Once you have a good flying weight established then it's time to tune. The guys above me mentioned the most tried and true method (start with p until just before you get the shakes, move to I until just before it gets "twitchy" and smooth everything out with d) when you increase your rates (you will want to when you get better at flying) you will have to tune it all over, and any significant weight gains or drops or power gains or drops will require a retune as well. Hope this helps!

Thank you for the specific advice about PID tuning. I've not even begun to look into that so your description is very illuminating. It sounds to me like I will need to acquire some form of laptop to really do this, yeah? Recently my laptop finally broke down and I've been hesitant to pick up a new one. It seems like it would be cumbersome to attempt to tweak these settings when I have to run back into the house to do it, etc..

In regards to the GoPro, I didn't know that this older one was particularly heavy! I'll have to research that. I do like the idea of getting videos of my flights as I'm learning and improving though, so I think I'll leave it on until I feel like it's a hindrance. This thing seems pretty light to me, as the versa is really not that light to begin with...

 

[defhermit]

damn, well I just crashed it pretty bad. I got it about 20 feet up and thought it would be a good idea to try to do a flip. it was in horizon mode and I thought that at the edge of the control range it would act like it was acro. so that, to me, meant that if I just pull all the way back on the "elevator" it would do I nice little back flip! well, it did a beautiful arc and smashed into the ground upside down at a pretty good speed. entirely my fault, I probably could have saved it but I decided in the heat of the moment to stick with it and didn't let go of the controls. oh well.

I broke a boom, one prop, and it left the batteries for both the quad (a 2200 mA 3 cell) and for my GoPro both questionable. The GoPro one is just broken, but happily I have a spare one and the camera seems to be working once I replaced that. Although it does seem to be blurry now, and I don't know if I can repair that or not. The quad battery took a real ding during the crash and is physically bent so I'm probably just going to get rid of it and not chance it by trying to use it again.

So now I'm placing an order for a replacement boom (or two) while I test out the quad's components and see if there is anything else wrong. The Naze32 seems alright but I'm still in the middle of taking the props back off so I can test out the motors, etc.

I'll be back in the air within a week! And this time I'll take it slower. God damn it, I so wanted to get to the point where I could do a little lap around the park this weekend. oh well....

 

[Darkback2]

Welcome to miniquads.

Honestly, sorry about the crash, but, with mini quads that is par for the course. I used to buy $40 worth of props every month...Lately not so much, but I probably am not flying hard enough.

So, first off, when you try anything new for the first time it is a good idea to get plenty of altitude...go way up. That way if you do something like an arch instead of a quick flip, you'll have time to save it.

What happened sounds like your rates are too low and you had your throttle on too long. For me at least, rates increase how fast the quad tilts on whichever axis. so if you are trying to do a flip or roll, if your rates are too low then the quad turns too slowly on its axis and you simply don't have enough time to complete the maneuver. Also, if you give it throttle for the whole thing, then when it is upside down it is actually pulling itself downwards when it is inverted. For flips you want to blip the throttle so that the quad is rising, sort of like tossing a ball in the are, and then drop the throttle and pull the right stick in the direction you want the quad to flip.

At least that is my understanding...

Hope this helps.

DB

 

[Habakkukk]

damn, well I just crashed it pretty bad. I got it about 20 feet up and thought it would be a good idea to try to do a flip. it was in horizon mode and I thought that at the edge of the control range it would act like it was acro. so that, to me, meant that if I just pull all the way back on the "elevator" it would do I nice little back flip! well, it did a beautiful arc and smashed into the ground upside down at a pretty good speed. entirely my fault, I probably could have saved it but I decided in the heat of the moment to stick with it and didn't let go of the controls. oh well.

I broke a boom, one prop, and it left the batteries for both the quad (a 2200 mA 3 cell) and for my GoPro both questionable. The GoPro one is just broken, but happily I have a spare one and the camera seems to be working once I replaced that. Although it does seem to be blurry now, and I don't know if I can repair that or not. The quad battery took a real ding during the crash and is physically bent so I'm probably just going to get rid of it and not chance it by trying to use it again.

So now I'm placing an order for a replacement boom (or two) while I test out the quad's components and see if there is anything else wrong. The Naze32 seems alright but I'm still in the middle of taking the props back off so I can test out the motors, etc.

I'll be back in the air within a week! And this time I'll take it slower. God damn it, I so wanted to get to the point where I could do a little lap around the park this weekend. oh well....

Bro you have no idea...sometimes, I just fly until I crash....

https://youtu.be/G6GA0EVep8I

 

[defhermit]

Here's a pic of the ConnQuad 1.0, post crash.



I've checked and all the motors seem okay, flight controller seems okay, GoPro is repaired but blurry. Boom is ordered (from FliteTest).

Is there someplace to get these woven carbon fiber tubes? I'm happy to buy from FliteTest but I don't want to be a sucker if there's some better option!

Now I'm trying to get my FT Explorer sky ready so I can fly something tomorrow!

 

[Darkback2]

You may need to replace your gopro lens. Not sure if this video will help with your particular camera...

As for the tubes after some quick looking around the deal from flite test looks pretty good.

Best of luck.
DB

 

[jipp]

ebay usually has good deals on carbon arms.
if you do not mind waiting for the slow boat you can even get them in color!
but carbon is expensive period unless you buy in large amount like most things.

you could use a wood dowel to get you in the air till you get your carbon tubes.
if you are breaking arms often wood dowels maybe the way to go.

or maybe put a wood dowel inside the carbon so it would be really hard to break one.
chris.

 

[defhermit]

okay! I received my replacement booms from flitetest on monday so I was able to reassemble the bird. Everything seems a-okay.

So, for the several test flights I've had so far I've noticed that my props loosen a LOT. I remembered hearing Josh Bixler mentioning using loctite during the build video, but I just skipped that when I was trying to get the thing to work. Today before I took it out for its first post boom-replacement flight I figured I would do it right and apply the loctite.

I placed like a half-drop of loctite blue 242 into each rounded "nut" prop fastener (what's the right name for this?) and tightened each prop down using a wrench. I got it good and tight but didn't really force it in my estimation. I let it sit for about 20 minutes before trying to fly.

Well, I got to a nearby park and set it down, powered up and armed it. As soon as I move the throttle up 3 of my 4 props just kind of disintegrated and fell off!

Now I THINK I know what I did wrong but I'm not sure. I'm hearing that this loctite stuff is meant for metal (which the "nut" and "bolt" here are made of) but is not good for plastic (which the props are made of). While I was pretty sparing with the loctite, it's entirely possible that some squeezed out onto the props during the tightening process. I guess this could have severely weakened the center ring of the props?

The other possibility is that I simply tightened too much. I used a small wrench but didn't pull on it all that hard. Now I'm nervous that I'm using too much force.

I have more props coming in the mail but for now I'm down to one more set of 4. I don't want to repeat my mistake. Should I not use loctite? Is there some reliable method for knowing how much force to use while tightening?

One last note is to mention that this set of props I just broke is a different brand that I first used. These were replacements I bought from flitetest while the first set was the ones that came with the versacopter kit. These ones (the ones I broke and still have one more set of 4 of) have a glossy finish while the ones that came with the kit had a matte look/feel, rougher in texture. I could have sworn I used the same force with that set with no "center ring failure" problem like this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Habakkukk]

I would stay away from the loctite for the props, just use nylon lock nuts. Use loctite on the screws used to mount the motors to the booms. I don't thing loctite would eat your props though, they probably just got over tightened.

 

[defhermit]

hmm. I've just been using the conical "nuts" that came with the motors, I think? I'll try lock nuts. Are you aware of the size that I need? I think I threw away the boxes so I'm not sure what the width of this motor.

I wiped off any excess loctite leaving the residue on there, it seems to add some grip while I'm tightening down. I then just tightened them by hand. Gonna see how that does.

 

[PsyBorg]

The Versa should have come with a set of nylock nuts which is what you need for the props. If for some weird reason it did not any local hardware store or auto parts store will usually carry them if you don't want to place an order for just the lock nuts from FT.

Just to bust your stones for a minute.. you crashed because you have not paid attention to any of the FT videos where it gets stated MULTIPLE times per video to be at least 3 mistakes high when trying new things.

As far as trying to do flips and rolls You really should not be trying this until you KNOW you have a decent tune on your quad. I can not recommend a video for that more then the one Rotor Riot did not to long ago as it covers MANY aspects of tuning. PIDS according to them is the LEAST important thing to worry about and after doing the steps they did in that video I have to agree. Mine is flying a thousand times better now then just tweaking pids was getting me. Pay attention to everything they say in this video and use the same processes in order that they do and you will be amazed at what the Versacopter can do. Start with going back to the PIDS in the setup video if you followed that build and used the recommended power packs. Then follow this video each step of the way.

If you want to learn more about tuning as stated Joshua Bardwell does a great video as does PAINLESS360. I highly recommend PAINLESS360's beginner series as well as the NAZE 32 series he does if you are using a NAZE32 flight controller.

 

[defhermit]

hey look I DO have a set of nylock nuts in this box! dang, thanks. as for the stone-busting, this is old business. you're of course right.
installing the lock nuts now...

 

[defhermit]

hmm... these nylon lock nuts appear to be too big for these motors. they slip right over the threads on the motor...

 

[Darkback2]

Couple of things to check. Look at your motors carefully. Are the threads reversed on 2 of them? Some motor sets come in left and right handed sets. The idea is that the threads on 2 of the motors are reversed. If you build your quad right then the motors will actually tighten the nuts as they spin. Some of the motors I've gotten had different colored nuts to indicate which went on which motor. So if you are looking at your motor from above, the motors that spin clockwise normally would need nuts that tighten when turned anti-clockwise. so your left front and right rear. The right front and left rear would be set up the opposite. They spin anti-clockwise, and the nuts would tighten when turned clockwise. It really sucks if you lose these btw. I believe FT was swapping over to nyloc nuts, but that change takes time. You may have gotten a set with self tightening. The other thing is, when I have bought nuts in bulk there are sometimes miss sized nuts mixed in. You may have been sent the wrong nut by accident.

If they are all threaded the same way, then you have to take a trip to your local hardware store. The nuts you need will be metric. Bring your quad. I usually use non-nyloc nuts for sizing (at my local ace they have open bins so you can test to make sure things fit before buying) Then I buy nyloc nuts.

Threadlocker weakens plastic. Also, its residue can weaken plastic. Carefully clean off your prop shafts before trying again. I've had a series of robot parts get broken that way. :-(

Finally, I am sorry to hear about your misfortune. This hobby has a steep learning curve, but it is really rewarding once you get things up and running. Posting pics and videos really helps people diagnose problems.

Best of luck to you!

DB

 

[defhermit]

The threads of all the motors run in the same direction, righty tighty.

It's weird that they actually included nyloc nuts, but the wrong size right?

I'll take a trip to home depot tonight. Thanks for the info!