Quadcopters? How hard can it be?

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
Well, here's a few firsts. First time flying my new Diatone Roma L3. First YouTube upload. First time at this park too.

This is about as far as I can fly before my video starts to go out. I don't know if this is normal range or not. Anyway, not much to see, but it's a video.


I did about 500m on 25mW with my plane setup over the weekend and fairly sure I could have gone farther, but was at the AMA field and was already pushing how far away you could say you had line of sight on the plane and turned around. I do have a nice directional antenna [something like 10db gain] that was pointed in that direction, so if your just using some omidirectional stuff, you might not get the same range.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I will.

I found another sheet that came with it that says 25, 200, 400. Google says yes, and more.

Why do they lock out the higher power?

Legally you have to be a HAM certified operator to use these transmitters. By unlocking its like a digital signature saying you are and know what you are doing as well as the regulations for using it. Some transmitters are F.C.C. certified at 25mw and do not require a HAM but they are totally useless as that boils down to like 3 to 5 mw radiated power so you get about 20 to 30 feet reliably.
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
Legally you have to be a HAM certified operator to use these transmitters. By unlocking its like a digital signature saying you are and know what you are doing as well as the regulations for using it. Some transmitters are F.C.C. certified at 25mw and do not require a HAM but they are totally useless as that boils down to like 3 to 5 mw radiated power so you get about 20 to 30 feet reliably.

I just got 500 meters on 25mW over the weekend and could have probably pushed farther then that, so I don't think that 25mW is automatically 'bad'.

I didn't know that there were any FCC certified VTXes [or only heard of one or two that was was only in the 5mW range and was an AiO type thing - as IIRC the certification is for a transmitter + antenna combo - so even if you found a certified device, you loose the certification if you swap out the antenna)]

as to the lock outs, there is a 25mW limit for the EU and the >25mW (and more channel) often locked for stuff that is also shipped there and the unlock is to say 'this is being used in FCC regulated area, not EU'
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Well, that went well.


Yes it did do very well. You are adapting nicely. The next step to work on is coordinating pitch and yaw better so you don't end up flying sideways or drifting so much It also make the high definition video much better if you are not tilted for a lot of the flight.

Now the thing to remember and practice is the faster you go the more tilt forward you have. At 45 degrees pitch and roll are equal above that they start switching roles. Pitch becomes more the yaw axis and roll becomes the roll axis which is why you are tilting after a faster dive or quick turn.
 

trey

Active member
I agree. I was talking to my son about it too. I drift a lot. I took the Mobula6 out today with the intent of working on that, and I feel it isn't as bad.

 

trey

Active member
Getting more brave I see haha. If you are going to fly around obstacles and not just open field its time to start getting that quad to behave properly.
Yeah, I agree. I didn't practice for a week, and it was pure trash. I need to slow down some.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Yeah, I agree. I didn't practice for a week, and it was pure trash. I need to slow down some.

Your skills are doing fine mate. I was thinking the "wet noodle" characteristics of a stock beta flight tune. You see the washing out on turns, the wobbles falling into minor propwash and the over shooting lines where you have to correct the path to recover and not just steer thru them.

Once you "feel" what a well behaved quad is like you'll understand the "Wet noodle" thing. You will have one of them light bulb moments when that all clicks and you feel what "Locked in is for the first time. You think you have the bug now hahah.. wait til that ah haaa!!! moment happens on a proper tune. You'll be like ... "see that chain link fence over there? All them tiny holes? I'm gonna gap it"
 

trey

Active member
Your skills are doing fine mate. I was thinking the "wet noodle" characteristics of a stock beta flight tune. You see the washing out on turns, the wobbles falling into minor propwash and the over shooting lines where you have to correct the path to recover and not just steer thru them.

Once you "feel" what a well behaved quad is like you'll understand the "Wet noodle" thing. You will have one of them light bulb moments when that all clicks and you feel what "Locked in is for the first time. You think you have the bug now hahah.. wait til that ah haaa!!! moment happens on a proper tune. You'll be like ... "see that chain link fence over there? All them tiny holes? I'm gonna gap it"
I'll look into tuning this weekend. This video was on the Diatone Roma L3. I ordered an iFlight Nazgul5, which is more freestyleish, but it's supposed to be my Christmas present. I also got a Roma L5, but I need to figure out the wiring for the RX.

I plan on getting flight time this weekend with the Mobula6, because it is just plain fun. And because I broke the case on my SMO 4k. I should have just picked up a Gopro.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I'll look into tuning this weekend. This video was on the Diatone Roma L3. I ordered an iFlight Nazgul5, which is more freestyleish, but it's supposed to be my Christmas present. I also got a Roma L5, but I need to figure out the wiring for the RX.

I plan on getting flight time this weekend with the Mobula6, because it is just plain fun. And because I broke the case on my SMO 4k. I should have just picked up a Gopro.

I stopped buying external cameras for my quads long ago. Unless you have a HUGE following on you tube and make money from it don't bother the cost over return is extremely poor math when you factor in camera replacement. You can get decent enough footage with a dvr and decent fpv camera set up. Look more into a fpv camera where you control the settings and not just presets. ALL the so called FPV cameras are STILLL set up using static indoor settings and handle light like its an on off switch not a variable. They also super saturate them image making fine details disappear. the main problem is dvr quality still isn't up to par with what the cameras can show these days.

This was when I was dialing in this 3 inch build and had gotten the light handling dialed in and was working on taming the colors more but the clarity in the goggles was already enough to see tiny branches and fly IN trees not around them.

 

trey

Active member
That seems to fly pretty well. I can't fly that slow for some reason. I'm always going way too fast. Just need more practice.

I like have the second camera because it's really pretty here. I like to see the background scenery. It's just for me to enjoy.

The Mobula6 wasn't much fun outside today. It doesn't have as much power, so it felt like it was hard to get it where I wanted it. I flew the L3 mostly, and really enjoyed it.

 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
That seems to fly pretty well. I can't fly that slow for some reason. I'm always going way too fast. Just need more practice.

I like have the second camera because it's really pretty here. I like to see the background scenery. It's just for me to enjoy.

The Mobula6 wasn't much fun outside today. It doesn't have as much power, so it felt like it was hard to get it where I wanted it. I flew the L3 mostly, and really enjoyed it.


Speed is pretty much determined by the FPV camera angle as your mind wants to keep things level so the perceiver horizon make you adjust. Lower camera tilt angle makes you mind think THAT is level and thus makes you seek the horizon at a lower angle. this in turn will naturally slow you down

Basic camera tilt is like 10 degrees for whoop ( your mobula) style flight about 25 to 35 degree tilt for freestyle much more and you tend to fly too fast for accuracy unless you are looking to do the Matty Stunts visual trickery and 45 to 90 degrees for racing depending on what you fly and your skill. The camera angle in that video I linked was close to 30 ish degrees if I remember correctly.

This is one of my 5 inch racers and they get set between 65 and 90 degrees depending how far the frame will let them tilt and how fast I seemed to be able to fly that particular day. which by the way makes it seriously hard to land smooth. Which is why many racers have adopted that whole get low while sideways drop n flop landing style.


 

Liam B

Well-known member
New video time!


Just based on watching, a lot of the "wet noodle" characteristic that the Borgonian is mentioning could be some throttle bobbling, and it might be dealing with a good bit of wind up there at higher altitudes. I definitely recommend staying up there for now, as it is a few "mistakes" high and will give you more time to fix an issue if it arises, but it's generally a little smoother down below.

But also, as was said, tuning. PIDs have become less important than filters these days, especially in the BetaFlight realm, but finding those odd frequencies and killing them really helps out.
 

trey

Active member
Just based on watching, a lot of the "wet noodle" characteristic that the Borgonian is mentioning could be some throttle bobbling, and it might be dealing with a good bit of wind up there at higher altitudes. I definitely recommend staying up there for now, as it is a few "mistakes" high and will give you more time to fix an issue if it arises, but it's generally a little smoother down below.

But also, as was said, tuning. PIDs have become less important than filters these days, especially in the BetaFlight realm, but finding those odd frequencies and killing them really helps out.
It was windy! I chalk the issues up to operator error. I was going to spend the weekend learning to tune, but I haven't taken the time.

Here's some Mobula6 action.

 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Just based on watching, a lot of the "wet noodle" characteristic that the Borgonian is mentioning could be some throttle bobbling, and it might be dealing with a good bit of wind up there at higher altitudes. I definitely recommend staying up there for now, as it is a few "mistakes" high and will give you more time to fix an issue if it arises, but it's generally a little smoother down below.

But also, as was said, tuning. PIDs have become less important than filters these days, especially in the BetaFlight realm, but finding those odd frequencies and killing them really helps out.

All them fancy words... throttle bobbing? Please don't lump me in with the Filter generation. I turn as much of that stuff off as the configurator will allow. If you use decent parts and build efficiently you really don't need all that stuff. Until you are filming professionally very few people will notice if you use filters or not. They will however notice a wet noodle stock betaflight tune. I fly in 20mph + winds on average days let alone fall and winter time gusting over 40mph and have no trouble. Even my tiny 3inch builds laugh at 20mph winds once tuned. Bobbing... pfft... Watch the video I posted above and see how much the trees were moving when I was in the process of test and tune on that three inch build. Most of the issues in that video are more form balancing rates on such a short wheel base as that was my first and smallest build next to the FT Gremlin. That even has less filtering on that OG Femto f3 and flys super solid not caring what winds are like.

All that stuff Bardwell did with black boxing and filters helped a bit but most of his flying looked like crap. It wasn't until he got around the Rotor Riot guys and Vanover that his flying actually became stable BECAUSE THEY PID TUNE. Yes they did the scripted "Stock Betaflight tune is the best thing since sliced bread" promotion shows like everyone else but that's what sponsorships make you do. You got to separate the hype from these fad of the moment all of the sudden you MUST have things. Also stock pids wear harder on motors and esc's from constant corrections enhanced by the filtering. Untuned quads also use more power. Filtering masks problems it does NOT solve them and uses more power to do so. If you find a resonant frequency bothering the Flight Controller find and fix the cause don't mask it.

When I built Taz and started setting that one up initial amp draws were spiking over 150 amps on full throttle hits and hard under power turning. By the time I tuned it the amp draw was maxing out in the mid 120 amps. That's HUGE on these tiny batteries we use. Even more so on less violent cruising / freestyle flying.

Filters work great with vibrations and even tightening up maneuverability but with out pid tunes they still slip n slide all over the place, over steer requiring corrections on all 3 axis and bobble around like a chihuahua dash ornament from the 70's lowriders.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
It was windy! I chalk the issues up to operator error. I was going to spend the weekend learning to tune, but I haven't taken the time.

Here's some Mobula6 action.


One of the first things with tuning is to find your rates. If you plan on flying proximity like that I would say lower your camera angle to 15 degrees max. ( you can always change it to do other things).That will slow you down and get you back in less then ludicrous speeds. Then I would drop Roll RC rate down by 5 and raise Super rate back up to match the DPS you started with if that is comfortable for you. Do the same with pitch but start with 3 points down on RC rate. Yaw rate depends on how you fly. For low angle proximity I will use very little super rate on yaw as that will be most of your turning. Then the higher your camera tilt the more you need to balance that out with super rate like I stated for pitch and roll. With time on the sticks and a locked in quad you will cross a nexus where all three axis are pretty close as their best case functions will all be at 45 degrees.

I set my DPS to where I can take pitch or roll stick to max deflection and immediately back to center and do one complete flip or roll. Anything more then that is overkill and will make your learning that much harder. Then its a matter of lowering RC rate and raising Super rate to get the desired expo effect. (NEVER use actual expo on a multirotor) then go fly a bunch more packs to get used to that and adjust to where you are smooth and not over steering.

Then after you fly a bit like that come back and we can work you into tuning and you can decide if you want to pid tune or cookie cutter filtering.