What should I name this project?

  • Bloody Goose (no Change)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Pop-top Goose

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Pop-top Gosling

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .

Mid7night

Jetman
Mentor
This project looks awesome! I love multi-engine designs, especially of big planes like the Spruce Goose.

That said, I hate to be a wet blanket, but I need to point out the very serious concern I have with your intended setup of running two motors from one ESC, times 4.

I have used HD servo wire for the motor leads without problem (see my B-52), HOWEVER: You really should use one ESC per motor. I did some quick searching, this question has been asked many times, and while it has been shown to "work" - that is, using one ESC to power two motors simultaneously - it is not in any way efficient or reliable, and could result in frying the ESC altogether.

Obviously I know cost is a concern here, but I'd rather see you wait while you save up some money and get the ESCs to do it right, rather than let it go and watch you smoke the four you have.

If you only need the power of 4 motors to fly, you could just power the inboard 4 motors and let the outboard pairs freewheel.
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
Thank you @Mid7night I will put more on order... It makes sense, that the spike Amps (which can be high) would be Doubly high.

I will be using a 2S battery to start (and see if the plane moves.) I have a 5000 Mah 2S for RC cars I was going to use.
I will make a promise that I will not attempt a 4S run on 4 ESCs unless I am done having fun with the current model and am looking to potentially fry the ESCS...

or I will test them well before field use on 4S.
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
last night I did a couple tests of the electrical system for this project and found that it's not as successful as I wanted which is not a big deal and I think I just need to put in the ESC on each individual line. which means midnight 7 is right. Time to wait for some low-cost escs

Electric system update: nothing successful. I divided the split servo wire from the ESC so it's just one line. Same thing. Worse with other escs.... :cautious:.

Quite dismaying.

ElecLayoutDiagram.PNG
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
Does anyone know how to test that an esc is working right?
I'm not sure my 30a ESC work right at all. and I have 4 more on the way.

After looking around un-surprisingly I found this on the topic of two motors, 1 esc...
"Very bad idea - don't do it !

Brushless ESC's are not like the brushed ones, brushed controllers are dumb and just output pulses to spin the motor(s).

Brushless controllers are active. they listen to the motor so that they can time the next pulse - this is how they work. if you have two motors the timing will go out and you will have a fire !
wink.gif


if you want two motors, use two controllers (ESCs) and parallel the radio wires and battery wires, then disable one of the controllers BECs."

I have a number of 12A escs on their way and will be perfect for a 3S situation. right now, that's my plan for this project. as it stands the are being processed in china distributing post.
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
Anyone see an issue with this setup? I am power 2 of the esc's from one 50A rated pad from the PDB
1548368611136.png
 

DamoRC

Elite member
Mentor
Is each pair of pads rated for 50A independently or is that the rating for the whole board?
 

b-29er

Well-known member
Just a few point here:

1. If you draw max amperage from a single battery from all 8 motors, you are drawing a staggering 96a through an XT60, which is rated for 60a, 90 burst. I would probably switch out to either dual batteries or an xt-90 connector, which can do that constantly
2. I don't think 12a is a situation where i would trust a JST servo connection. Even on alternating, you can do some damage with 150w in 8 places. But that's just me. At a minimum, i would probably loop a ziptie over both sides of the connector between a pair of the wires on each side, just to make sure they stay together.
3. why not use a pair of these 4 in 1 ESCs? My thoughts would be that it is low weight, is easy to waterproof and keep in a centralized location that is less likely to see water. you also are not feeding 90a+through 1 pcb
4. i second @DamoRC 's question on the PDB. If it says 4x50a, i'd say go for it. If it says 50a total, add a second PDB. The nice thing is this could theoretically give you two electrical systems, which wouldnt be bad if you had a short from water.

Overall, this is a very cool build! @Horseman3381 you seeing this?
 
Last edited:

DamoRC

Elite member
Mentor
@b-29er makes some good points. Another thing to consider is cooling for the ESCs . This ended up being a problem for the C-130 model, eventually killing one ESC and melting the shrink wrap off the other three (and crashing the plane in the process). I had the 4 x 10A ESC mounted in the fuse with little or no ventilation. So make sure you have plenty of air moving through the section of fuse where you intend to mount the ESC.
 

kilroy07

Legendary member
Dang it @FoamyDM I need you to stop starting all these cool projects!
How in the world do you expect me to get anything done when you keep adding projects to my build list?! ;)

Not sure how I missed this project, just found it tonight...

Seriously, I have learned SO much from your project already, thank you!
I have 8 1104s AND an equal number of the 12a ESCs just waiting for a project...
Might be Ben's B-52, a multi engine $10 foam glider or this... have to wait till the end of February to see...

I cannot wait to see this in the air, if the thrust to weight ratio plays out, it ought to be a riot!
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
First off. Thank you all. This is the advice I needed... now how much I take is my foolish impatient self failing to heed the solid advice here. Where I fail I learn. in a lesson that sticks (usually)
Is each pair of pads rated for 50A independently or is that the rating for the whole board?
Yes the board is rated for 200A and each pad is 50A. Also, I thought about cooling... I was thinking of making a under-wing scoop to pass air over an ESC/electronics pod.

Just a few point here:
1. If you draw max amperage from a single battery from all 8 motors, you are drawing a staggering 96a through an XT60, which is rated for 60a, 90 burst. I would probably switch out to either dual batteries or an xt-90 connector, which can do that constantly
2. I don't think 12a is a situation where i would trust a JST servo connection. Even on alternating, you can do some damage with 150w in 8 places. But that's just me. At a minimum, i would probably loop a ziptie over both sides of the connector between a pair of the wires on each side, just to make sure they stay together.
3. why not use a pair of these 4 in 1 ESCs? My thoughts would be that it is low weight, is easy to waterproof and keep in a centralized location that is less likely to see water. you also are not feeding 90a+through 1 pcb
4. i second @DamoRC 's question on the PDB. If it says 4x50a, i'd say go for it. If it says 50a total, add a second PDB. The nice thing is this could theoretically give you two electrical systems, which wouldnt be bad if you had a short from water.

Overall, this is a very cool build! @Horseman3381 you seeing this?

1. haven't thought about the total draw regarding connectors. On 3S each motor pulls less than 12A. somewhere near 10.5A I suppose. and on 2S around 8A. (3S-8*10.5=84A, 2S-8*8A=64A) so with a 2.2Ah 35C battery, max pull is 77A? This tells me if I want to keep 1 battery, then I need to have a xt90 plug, or two batteries either to 1 or 2 pdbs.
I believe I will dig out my second PBD and use two batteries. This should leave me with 2.2Ah-3S (2m full throttle), or 5Ah-2S (9m full Throttle).
2. I very much understand. I have succeeded in using this on my tiny flying wing and this did not have heat issues at the connectors. even on 3s, and I went full bust on it for over a minute.
3. I don't have them and the purchase of one cost as much as all 8 escs. (again, good $deal)
4. see above. I like the idea of redundant systems in the event of failure.

Dang it @FoamyDM I need you to stop starting all these cool projects!
How in the world do you expect me to get anything done when you keep adding projects to my build list?! ;)

Not sure how I missed this project, just found it tonight...

Seriously, I have learned SO much from your project already, thank you!
I have 8 1104s AND an equal number of the 12a ESCs just waiting for a project...
Might be Ben's B-52, a multi engine $10 foam glider or this... have to wait till the end of February to see...

I cannot wait to see this in the air, if the thrust to weight ratio plays out, it ought to be a riot!

Thank you @kilroy07 for the compliment. I feel the same way about my project list too. Whenever @rockyboy starts a new challenge. I still have the flying pancake and the Kalinin K-12 on my list from last year! And thank you. If I could finish them. I'd be stupid prolific. As the community grows, the new posts/cool projects add quicker. Miss a week and good luck finding the gems. Also you could build a micro-gimbled octo-copter.

@
I noticed on most of the multi-engine planes, Each motor is setup as it's own plane with Battery, ESC, motor and prop. sometimes the batteries are centralized. It just seemed wasteful. like there is a smarter way is all.
I plan on doing a "micro" version of the Hydra-Valkyrie-Amerika-Bomber. with twin 30mm or 55mm. or maybe a ducted 1806 sporting a 2.5-3" prop. (anyway it's a project for the summer.)

Revised Power Layout:
ElecLayoutDiagramV3.PNG
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
This is what that setup looks like in person.
IMG_20190129_015949945.jpg

I still need to test the second pdb. (Which is a RROSD with 4-35a pads)
 

CarolineTyler

Legendary member
One ESC per motor is definitely required, ESC's use the back EMF from the motor coils to synchronise, having two motors or more on the same ESC will cause it to de-sync.
The 4-in-1 is a great idea for saving weight, but ESC's work best with short leads between ESC and motor and has the advantage of being able to put the ESC in the airflow behind each motor - making cooling easy.
The table for these motors are all based on a 4S battery - I would expect the current draw on 2S or 3S to be quite a bit lower. If you have a watt meter it would be worthwhile testing the draw for 2S & 3S. If large, consider using two batteries one for odd motors and the other the enen ones. battery/wiring failure would then leave you with power evenly across the wing making control of the plane easier.
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
Smoke Stopper Question: Is my system OK?
I have tested each of these systems. and I have tested each motor setup individually with the smoke stopper in place. to check that the ESCs are functioning properly. and the motors are setup correctly. I plug everything up, the pdb lights up and the smoke stopper bulb is off. (only 1 motor.) then I turn the motor on and at first the light remains off, but then I throttle to about 25%-50% and it lights up. the faster, the brighter. Is this because the motors are pulling current as they should, which passes through the SSbulb, lighting it up? it's when they light up with very low throttle or no throttle that I have a problem?

I'll read up more in the forums. most things I've seen just tell me how to build one, and what they do. and gloss over what a successful wiring vs. a failure. Either way, I'm glad I have one.

Help here would be immense. o_O as I don't want to fry my system or have to RE-SOLDER and re-heat shrink every joint. If I do, :unsure: please help me know how to test along the way, so I don't go back again.
I wish I understood why my brain just stops working right when I think over my electrical systems.

Thank you @CarolineTyler as that is exactly the plan. I came to the same conclusion this weekend. I will be stacking the two PDBs. each I will have two left and right, both inner and outer like the post in post #32,
I think Either Way I will be forming the wing and the engine nacelles this week to do a test flight to confirm the CG point.
 

CarolineTyler

Legendary member
You can't run the motors with the smoke stopper on, the filaments in the bulb on purpose limit the current that can be drawn which will cause the ESCs to reset. The smoke stopper is just used to stop a short circuit burning out an ESC. Without it a short could cause very large amp draws and frying the ESCs and your FC.
Attach smoke stopper, connect battery, check the FC and ESC initalise ok. THEN Remove smoke stopper and re-connect battery to test motors.
Better to blow a bulb than an ESC and FC
 

FoamyDM

Building Fool-Flying Noob
Moderator
YES! thank you for that. I can get this project moving now. That's what I was thinking/hoping.

When I started, my soldering was terrible. a combination of having NO idea, and a low power soldering gun and the wrong solder made for disastrous results, as a result, I am a bit more cautious, and less confident because of it.
 

CarolineTyler

Legendary member
Although if I were building this amazing model, I would have bought cheap multirotor ESCs without BECS and used a seperate BEC to run the receiver and servos. less wiring and the ESCs are really cheap.