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Storing LiPo Battery in Fridge

JTarmstr

Well-known member
#41
I have nothing against putting your pack in a fridge. It may solve some problems, it's just not the answer to every problem. We should be willing to find the cause of the problem. There are many reasons for a pack to be damaged, excessive heat is just one of them. The heat that caused damage is far above ambient temperatures. Excessive heat is not warm, it's so hot you can not hold the pack in you hand. The solution, find out what is causing you pack to get that hot.
I think i understand what you are getting at however, the original post was asking whether a fridge would be a good option for storage in hot weather. Best of luck!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#42
I think i understand what you are getting at however, the original post was asking whether a fridge would be a good option for storage in hot weather. Best of luck!
"Hot weather" being 30C (84F), it's just not that warm. Here in IL that's one of our cooler days. If you are having trouble with your packs at that temp, 30C, the solution to the problem is not packs in the fridge. Packs in the fridge may help, but it's a bandage, not a solution to the actual problem.
 
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Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#44
That is were you are wrong. I'm suggesting there may be a problem, not to ridicule them, but to help them discover the problem and fix it. Hopefully that is the goal of everyone here.

In this thread, which post did I say I would not help find a problem or a solution? In which of my post did I ridicule anyone?
In order to help the creator of this thread I wish to know what you can suggest that will help stop or retard the puffing of his battery packs! To not offer any solution is negative regardless if you are of the opinion that any currently offered solution or support is wrong!

I await and look forward to your recommendations to that end. Bear in mind that doing nothing is not considered as a solution!

Have fun!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#45
To not offer any solution is negative regardless if you are of the opinion that any currently offered solution or support is wrong!
I'm not sure I understand you. Sounds like you are saying that if my advice is not the same as your advice, that I'm being negative? Is that correct?
 

d8veh

Well-known member
#46
If I had a pack that was getting suspiciously hot, I'd check the internal resistance of each cell, then I'd charge it up and check each cell for self-discharge by checking cell voltages 24 hours apart. Finally, I'd do a discharge test to check that it has something near the original capacity. I'm lucky because I have a proper lithium battery load tester, so I can check what happens to the cell voltages while the battery is under load as well as the capacity. Without that, you could still do it with a wattmeter whilst running a motor with a propeller in or out of an aeroplane.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#47
I'm not sure I understand you. Sounds like you are saying that if my advice is not the same as your advice, that I'm being negative? Is that correct?
I am asking you to post any information or methods that you use or know of that actually extend battery life or reduce/stop the packs from puffing! I believe was the gist of the original post! I am not requesting any post that says that something will not work unless you have done some evaluation of it yourself and can offer an alternative.

I look forward to alternate solutions and I am willing to evaluate their suitability in my climate conditions.

Have fun!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#48
If I had a pack that was getting suspiciously hot, I'd check the internal resistance of each cell, then I'd charge it up and check each cell for self-discharge by checking cell voltages 24 hours apart. Finally, I'd do a discharge test to check that it has something near the original capacity. I'm lucky because I have a proper lithium battery load tester, so I can check what happens to the cell voltages while the battery is under load as well as the capacity. Without that, you could still do it with a wattmeter whilst running a motor with a propeller in or out of an aeroplane.
I understand what you are saying your post as I am a military trained Electronics and Communications tradesperson.

The original question is not actually being able to detect any cell damage but do you have any constructive methods that can be used to possibly extend cell life and reduce battery puffing! If you do please post them!

Have fun!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#49
I am asking you to post any information or methods that you use or know of that actually extend battery life or reduce/stop the packs from puffing!
I did that in post #21 & #23. Here is a recap. Some brands just puff easier than others, it has nothing to do with how much you pay for a pack. There are many other things that will cause excessive heat in a pack, pulling too many amps, over discharging, charging too fast, over 1C, charging too soon, not giving them time to cool after flight, etc.

Is that what you consider to be ridicule? Is that me saying I would not help find a problem or a solution? Just because I looked for a problem outside of a fridge?
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#50
I did that in post #21 & #23. Here is a recap. Some brands just puff easier than others, it has nothing to do with how much you pay for a pack. There are many other things that will cause excessive heat in a pack, pulling too many amps, over discharging, charging too fast, over 1C, charging too soon, not giving them time to cool after flight, etc.

Is that what you consider to be ridicule? Is that me saying I would not help find a problem or a solution? Just because I looked for a problem outside of a fridge?
That post I have read and read it again just now! It does make mention of some of the causes of the battery puffing problem as well as the causes Where does it offer an alternative method of reducing the puffing or preventing it assuming that the person who has the problem is already doing all that you have suggested or is for some reason unable to comply!

The warning you have given is the standard warning that anyone who is using LiPos would or should be aware of! My looking into why I lost almost all of my flight batteries, (in storage), during a summer heatwave 2 years lead to what I and my fellow club members do now. Prior to the use of refrigeration we all followed your generic warning! In a climate with a high ambient the amount of temperature rise that can be tolerated before battery damage occurs is markedly reduced!

What is it that you recommend, outside of giving a generic warning as to the handling and use of LiPos, can you offer?

Have fun!
 

d8veh

Well-known member
#53
The original question is not actually being able to detect any cell damage but do you have any constructive methods that can be used to possibly extend cell life and reduce battery puffing! If you do please post them!

Have fun!
Yes. the easiest way to extend cell-life is to not use the battery.

We have to be careful about facts and theories. We have some facts that the general consensus is that over 60C can damage a lipo and some guys put their batteries in the fridge, and they found that they got longer life than they did with their previous batteries that were not put in the fridge; however, there are a lot of noise factors, so it could be that someone is jumping to conclusions.

I don't see any proof that keeping batteries in the fridge makes them last longer. I don't see anywhere that a lipo suffers damage at 40C. Lipos are improving all the time, so if you used one method for three years, then put your batteries in the fridge for three years, you'd get longer life because of the general improvement in the manufacture of the battery over the three years - nothing to do with the fridge. Anybody else could have stored their batteries standing on their heads, and they would have seen the same improvement. It's only if you do a side-by-side test, with batteries from the same batch, giving them exactly the same usage, that you could draw any meaningful results and conclusions. I remain skeptical.

Despite all that, lipos aren't exactly expensive. I pay around 15 bucks on average, and during the 6 months I've been using them for flying, I've never had a problem or seen any deterioration, despite handling them abysmally. maybe if we found the perfect method of looking after them, i could save a few dollars each year, but is it worth it for the hassle? I accept that mine don't have to suffer temperatures as extreme as some of you guys do.
 
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Merv

Well-known member
#54
Prior to the use of refrigeration we all followed your generic warning! In a climate with a high ambient the amount of temperature rise that can be tolerated before battery damage occurs is markedly reduced!
That's my point. You insisted on a solution that worked for you, nothing wrong with suggesting a solution that worked for you. BUT, It may or may not be problem @Prithul has, he said his temp was 30C, not the temps you are dealing with. He may or may not know the basics of lipo care. Should we not always start with the basics? Especially with a new member. I do not know why Prithul's packs are puffing because you refused to consider any other solution than other the one that worked for you, the one that solved your problem.

Now please answer my question. In this thread, which post did I say I would not help find a problem or a solution? In which of my post did I ridicule anyone?
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#56
Yes. the easiest way to extend cell-life is to not use the battery.

We have to be careful about facts and theories. We have some facts that the general consensus is that over 60C can damage a lipo and some guys put their batteries in the fridge, and they found that they got longer life than they did with their previous batteries that were not put in the fridge; however, there are a lot of noise factors, so it could be that someone is jumping to conclusions.

I don't see any proof that keeping batteries in the fridge makes them last longer. I don't see anywhere that a lipo suffers damage at 40C. Lipos are improving all the time, so if you used one method for three years, then put your batteries in the fridge for three years, you'd get longer life because of the general improvement in the manufacture of the battery over the three years - nothing to do with the fridge. Anybody else could have stored their batteries standing on their heads, and they would have seen the same improvement. It's only if you do a side-by-side test, with batteries from the same batch, giving them exactly the same usage, that you could draw any meaningful results and conclusions.
Facts are determined by testing a hypothesis or theory. Without testing and investigation our society would stagnate.

Having started using my methods here years ago would disqualify any battery manufacturing improvements being applicable to my battery packs as they would pre-date any manufacturing improvements,

The side by side comparison is what I am trying to encourage others to do. I have never implied that what we do here is applicable to everyone everywhere. as for the side by side comparison others here have done so before they adopted the procedure and some do not bother for all of their batteries but use it on a select few which have had problems in some of their planes.

As for drawing conclusions, I use the procedure based upon experimental results, all I have requested that if others have a problem then perhaps if they tried what I do it might be of some use to them. In addition I even went to the trouble of purchasing batteries from a number of different manufacturers to see if the refrigeration has any serious adverse on some packs whilst it worked with others but there was no such result! All of the batteries behaved and still behave somewhat equally!

Waiting for battery technology to improve is great but does nothing for the issue today when I am flying!

As for your inability to SEE that battery storage in a refrigerator might help increase a battery's life, I invite you to try it for yourself! I offer the same challenge to anyone who has a battery puffing problem and nothing else they try seems to work! Your failure to see something does not mean that it does not exist. As for some storing their batteries in a refrigerator, it is their choice and I applaud their willingness to experiment. If it works for some at all then it is worth consideration by anyone having a similar issue. It would NOT be suitable for everyone but for some it will be a blessing!

Sure it won't work for everyone and I do not expect that it would when some forum users actually need to warm their batteries before they can use them in their aircraft. I do not deride those who heat their batteries even though here such actions would be disastrous for battery life.

I again ask you for any procedure you know of outside the standard handling instructions and cautions for LiPos excluding the waiting for the battery technology to improve. If you know of anything that may be a HELPFUL alternative to refrigeration PLEASE POST IT!

Have fun!
 

JTarmstr

Well-known member
#57
Facts are determined by testing a hypothesis or theory. Without testing and investigation our society would stagnate.

Having started using my methods here years ago would disqualify any battery manufacturing improvements being applicable to my battery packs as they would pre-date any manufacturing improvements,

The side by side comparison is what I am trying to encourage others to do. I have never implied that what we do here is applicable to everyone everywhere. as for the side by side comparison others here have done so before they adopted the procedure and some do not bother for all of their batteries but use it on a select few which have had problems in some of their planes.

As for drawing conclusions, I use the procedure based upon experimental results, all I have requested that if others have a problem then perhaps if they tried what I do it might be of some use to them. In addition I even went to the trouble of purchasing batteries from a number of different manufacturers to see if the refrigeration has any serious adverse on some packs whilst it worked with others but there was no such result! All of the batteries behaved and still behave somewhat equally!

Waiting for battery technology to improve is great but does nothing for the issue today when I am flying!

As for your inability to SEE that battery storage in a refrigerator might help increase a battery's life, I invite you to try it for yourself! I offer the same challenge to anyone who has a battery puffing problem and nothing else they try seems to work! Your failure to see something does not mean that it does not exist. As for some storing their batteries in a refrigerator, it is their choice and I applaud their willingness to experiment. If it works for some at all then it is worth consideration by anyone having a similar issue. It would NOT be suitable for everyone but for some it will be a blessing!

Sure it won't work for everyone and I do not expect that it would when some forum users actually need to warm their batteries before they can use them in their aircraft. I do not deride those who heat their batteries even though here such actions would be disastrous for battery life.

I again ask you for any procedure you know of outside the standard handling instructions and cautions for LiPos excluding the waiting for the battery technology to improve. If you know of anything that may be a HELPFUL alternative to refrigeration PLEASE POST IT!

Have fun!
The article i linked stated that the reasons lipos puff is because of a reaction in the battery when you run it down causing gasses to form. These gasses expand and the lipo puffs, messing up the sandwich of cathodes and anodes, storage in a fridge would keep the gasses from expanding so it works against expanding. That's all i can really say about this. Don't overuse the battery and make sure to store it in a dry cool room.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#58
That's my point. You insisted on a solution that worked for you, nothing wrong with suggesting a solution that worked for you. BUT, It may or may not be problem @Prithul has, he said his temp was 30C, not the temps you are dealing with. He may or may not know the basics of lipo care. Should we not always start with the basics? Especially with a new member. I do not know why Prithul's packs are puffing because you refused to consider any other solution than other the one that worked for you, the one that solved your problem.

Now please answer my question. In this thread, which post did I say I would not help find a problem or a solution? In which of my post did I ridicule anyone?
So you are saying that it will not work for him because his ESTIMATE of the temperature was 30 degrees! If you are not willing to offer any argument other than the standard LiPo handling precautions you are inferring that the originator of the post was not even smart enough to follow the proper handling instructions for LiPos.

Your posts have been aimed directly against the idea of any from of refrigeration and inferred that it is not only a useless procedure but also that anyone who does so is obviously doing something else wrong or stupid.

I am defending the right of other people in this forum to have a different opinion to those you are espousing here. I also support that others should have the right to try things for themselves. In addition I am defending a procedure that I know works for me and others at my club! It may help others!

On the forums people asking for help and information should be treated with respect at all times. Advice given should be as accurate as possible even if it sometimes is not pleasant news. OPINIONS however are not scientific and everyone has them. I try not to use opinion as a substitute for actual knowledge. That someone does not share my knowledge is easily overcome through the forum subject to it not clashing with the OPINIONS of others!

Finally I was always told that if you have nothing of value to add to a discussion you should say nothing!

Have fun!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#59
The article i linked stated that the reasons lipos puff is because of a reaction in the battery when you run it down causing gasses to form. These gasses expand and the lipo puffs, messing up the sandwich of cathodes and anodes, storage in a fridge would keep the gasses from expanding so it works against expanding. That's all i can really say about this. Don't overuse the battery and make sure to store it in a dry cool room.
I agree with everything you posted but add to this that the gassing occurs at a far greater rate above a certain temperature. So by keeping the temperature below the gassing threshold temperature can and does delay the de-laminating of the cells and the generation of gas.

Have fun!
 

d8veh

Well-known member
#60
It's pretty well universally accepted that battery life is extended a lot if you use the 80/20 rule. That's charge them no more than 80% and never discharge below 20%. Factors of 4 times as long have been mentioned.

Everything has a downside though. IMHO, battery life is not an important characteristic, though flight time and weight are. If you used the 80/20 rule, you'd have to compensate by buying bigger and more expensive batteries that are also heavier, so you end up with a worse or shorter flying plane and the money you save from extending their life is wiped out by having to buy more expensive batteries.

As I said before, I think it's all interlectual masturbation. People are trying to find interlectual impractical solutions to problems that are more or less insignificant. Ive seen a lot of this sort of things on various forums. Maybe if I were only allowed to have one battery and my life depended on it, I would try anything that looks sensible, but I just can't see the point in messing about like that to maybe save a couple of dollars.

If we accept that batteries get damaged if they go over 60C, we might want to give that a bit of a safety margin, say 50C, so a fridge will be useful if you live in a climate where you have temperatures like that.