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The Controversial Storch Build! (placeholder for now)

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#1
OK Gentlemen, it's time for me to put up or shut up!! :geek::eek:
Some People think I'm biting off more than I can chew.......
They may be right!! But I've got to try. I tend to overreach like that. Besides, as many fine People here say "It's just Foam!"

This is my FIRST FT Aircraft Build, and the first RC Aircraft that didn't cost $15 at Wally World. To date, I haven't flown ANYTHING under 24,000lbs. (except for a Cessna 172) NO Experience in RC Flight - but 37 years in RC Ground, 43 years building Scale Model Aircraft, a lifetime love of Aviation and Aerodynamics....
And the Hot-Shotiest Hot Shot for a Dad (who FLEW the superlative SR-71 Blackbird, and helped design the D-21 Drone with Kelly Johnson!!!!)

....... I'm truly hoping that the many years of actual flying, work on Avionics Systems in the USAF, and long conversations with some of the most Brilliant People in Aviation History - will at LEAST add something to me enjoying this Hobby that has taken way too long to get into. And maybe even help me to be innovative, and to be able to help others, as others have generously helped me! (y)(y):)
Including some GREAT People who are no longer with me....

* I have a couple of more suitable "beginner Planes" also being built around this - the FT Sportster and FT Scout..... And, I was just surprised with a Tiny Trainer Kit!! THOSE will be the sacrificial Lambs, to get me in the Air, teach me Control, and one will break me in with 4 Channel Flying.

When THIS Project starts......
VERY LITTLE of my Storch will remain Stock!!! :cool::eek:

I was supposed to get my Storch this evening (MON 19 NOV 18). USPS had different ideas. :mad::(:cry: Maybe Tomorrow.


[Placeholder for Intro and Build]
 
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kilroy07

Well-known member
#5
Will be watching! Sorry for the delay (but it's out of my hands, as they say.)

I've decided to do mine up to reflect SJ LL, the one who rescued Mussolini.
Not too worried about overlap as yours is having tricycle gear (we "should" be able to tell them apart!)
;)

That Gorilla glue is "different"... Have to cut out another wing, so I'm not that far ahead of you! :LOL:
 

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#6
Thanks my friends!!! I hope I can add some value to this Talented Group....
Tim, it's NOT you! Something delayed the USPS..... I guess the old "Not Rain, Sleet or Snow....." bit doesn't apply to them anymore. Tomorrow (Tues.) is looking good! :unsure:

I'm just SO excited to get going! I'm so flooded with ideas. Another thing I'm doing, that you're welcome to borrow....
I'll be making a Legacy Elevator, to fit the Storch. I like the fact that it's a folded Airfoil. More lift, more efficient, and more importantly - stronger!

Well, that's a tease! I'm going to save my posting here, for actual WORK! ;)
But I do really appreciate you guys being on board already!!
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
#7
I love your build projects plans, but rather than spending the time building even inexpensive foam and testing your RC flight skills by going straight to a "solo checkout flight" on a new airframe, have you given any thought or action into putting in some simulator time? I know it's not quite the same, but before the Army even considered putting me behind the controls of a Bradley, I had to sit through hours behind a simulator looking through gunner/commander sights at computer generated graphics. This was way back in 1990/91, so not surprisingly, you can find even more capable simulators on inexpensive computers and mobile devices now!

One of my favorite free simulators is: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crrcsim/files/crrcsim/crrcsim-0.9.13/

I tried looking for RCDeskpilot, where I believe there's even a FT Storch modeled, but can't find the binary. The source is up on github, but that's a little too much setup even for me.

Looking forward to following your progress!
 

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#8
I love your build projects plans, but rather than spending the time building even inexpensive foam and testing your RC flight skills by going straight to a "solo checkout flight" on a new airframe, have you given any thought or action into putting in some simulator time? I know it's not quite the same, but before the Army even considered putting me behind the controls of a Bradley, I had to sit through hours behind a simulator looking through gunner/commander sights at computer generated graphics. This was way back in 1990/91, so not surprisingly, you can find even more capable simulators on inexpensive computers and mobile devices now!

One of my favorite free simulators is: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crrcsim/files/crrcsim/crrcsim-0.9.13/

I tried looking for RCDeskpilot, where I believe there's even a FT Storch modeled, but can't find the binary. The source is up on github, but that's a little too much setup even for me.

Looking forward to following your progress!
Not a Bad Idea.... I had to do almost 35 Hours of Simulator time before even going up in a T-33 Jet Trainer with an Instructor! :eek:
I did 20 Hours of Simulator time in a F-15E.... Even though I didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of Seat Time in one!!!

I like the idea of Sim RC Flying, to an extent. It would sharpen skills, but Real World is more fun!!
The ONLY thing I've got for communication with the World, is a 5 year old Tablet..... Is there a Google App for a simulator? How about a "buddy cord?", that would plug into the mini USB on my Tablet??

OH.... The Storch will NOT leave the Ground, until I've gotten at least 3 other Models off the Ground, and back down.... WHEELS DOWN! :LOL::ROFLMAO:
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
#9
There are a couple Android options:

Real Flight Mobile:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.greatplanes.rfmobile

Absolute RC Flight Sim:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rcflightsim.cvall

I've tried both of the above... full disclosure, Absolute RC Flight Sim was my first simulator, before I got a TX that I could connect to my computer.

I've heard a lot of good things about this one, which I think is a bit newer than the other two. I intend to try it myself on my phone soon:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rowlhouse.picasim

Edited to add that I just tried Picasim and really like it! If you can take off, fly a pattern, and land in that sim, with the touch/on screen control sticks, you'll have a much easier time with the real thing! I find the most helpful thing about these RC simulators is that they do a great job of helping you figure out orientation and how to control a plane when it's flying away from you (easy and intuitive) vs when it's flying towards you (everything except the elevator & throttle is "reversed")

Have fun!
 
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PoorManRC

Well-known member
#10
AWESOME!! Thanks! :)
I also just installed picasim. Gonna try it now!

EDIT - 17:49hrs
Been "Playing" with Picasim for a couple of hours now.... I'm flying a basic Cub like Aircraft, in a open Park setting.
......... 143 flights - TWO Perfect Flared Landings, FIVE "Landings".

I think I get it, the USAF Simulators that I'm used to, have me flying FPV - of course, like you're in the Cockpit.
This takes off, and quickly becomes a speck!! :confused::mad:

Ok, Twice I was able to keep it in the Air, for more than 15 minutes. I even think that this exercise has improved my feel of the Sticks in 4ch Mode, AND forced me to use thumbtip Control (is that good or not??)

But, the Plane was mostly out of sight, had practically NO Glide Slope, and seemed to move BEHIND my inputs....
 
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Vimana89

Well-known member
#12
Good luck with whatever you are doing to customize your build. I'm all about overreaching too...most of the great advances in well, just about anything have been made with a healthy tendency to overreach, at least a bit. I'm learning how to balance that with a bit of patience and common sense too. Having support helps big time, doing this sort of thing in a vacuum with no input lends to frustration, and frustration lends to more impatience and so on. Having others to help here has been helpful for that sort of impatient anxiety to produce a product as quickly as possible to prove to myself I can do it and am not just wasting time and money. I can relax a bit knowing that my chances of success will only get better and better the more input I receive, and the more I take my time and learn. When an obstacle comes up, I don't have to think "Is this gonna be the one that does me in completely?" Because odds are, somebody here has faced and overcome that very obstacle.
 
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PoorManRC

Well-known member
#13
Good luck with whatever you are doing to customize your build. I'm all about overreaching too...most of the great advances in well, just about anything have been made with a healthy tendency to overreach, at least a bit. I'm learning how to balance that with a bit of patience and common sense too. Having support helps big time, doing this sort of thing in a vacuum with no input lends to frustration, and frustration lends to more impatience and so on. Having others to help here has been helpful for that sort of impatient anxiety to produce a product as quickly as possible to prove to myself I can do it and am not just wasting time and money. I can relax a bit knowing that my chances of success will only get better and better the more input I receive, and the more I take my time and learn. When an obstacle comes up, I don't have to think "Is this gonna be the one that does me in completely?" Because odds are, somebody here has faced and overcome that very obstacle.
Thank You for your kind words and your support!! :cool::)
I completely understand you. I've been a "Lone Wolf" in my Hobbies for many years! It's rarely fun, and gets frustrating. The Vacuum is no place to advance your thinking!!
Sometimes, it's GOOD to have a Sounding Board somewhere out there.....
Sometimes it's good to hear things that you may NOT want to hear! But I believe that advice, does MORE Good, than being surrounded by Yes Men, who will look at the CRAPPIEST concoction you've ever created and say "Hey Man, looks great".

Of COURSE I don't want to be told what to do..... But I'd like to know if I'm going down a Rabbit Hole, or just being dangerous!!
All I ask is to be respectful.

I'm so excited about this!! Can I guarantee Success?? HELL NO!
I'm about to apply things that I JUST learned, and a few I'm making up as I go along! :eek::geek::eek:
I grew up around very advanced thinkers.... It pushed me Hard! I didn't always stack up to impossibly high standards - but I'm always reaching HIGH!!

I expect we will be teaching each other along this cool Journey!!! I expect to learn a LOT from the Über Talented People here!!
I'm READY for this Ride. I hope you are too! ;)
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
#14
AWESOME!! Thanks! :)
I also just installed picasim. Gonna try it now!

EDIT - 17:49hrs
Been "Playing" with Picasim for a couple of hours now.... I'm flying a basic Cub like Aircraft, in a open Park setting.
......... 143 flights - TWO Perfect Flared Landings, FIVE "Landings".

I think I get it, the USAF Simulators that I'm used to, have me flying FPV - of course, like you're in the Cockpit.
This takes off, and quickly becomes a speck!! :confused::mad:

Ok, Twice I was able to keep it in the Air, for more than 15 minutes. I even think that this exercise has improved my feel of the Sticks in 4ch Mode, AND forced me to use thumbtip Control (is that good or not??)

But, the Plane was mostly out of sight, had practically NO Glide Slope, and seemed to move BEHIND my inputs....
Yes, as someone who was also used to first person type simulators (including the microsoft flight sim on PC's) going to an RC sim was a big adjustment. As you found, having to fly a tight pattern within visual line of sight is a bit challenging. I had to get used to constantly turning or flying figure eights. It's really harder that one would expect, but controlling a vehicle remotely -- especially in all three dimensions, is a tricky skill.

Keep at it. That's what these simulators are for. When I started, it was a similar ratio of success and ... ahem... less than successful flights. I probably had over 100 flights before I was able to take off, fly a circle, and land without crashing. Getting the muscle memory is exactly what you mean by improving your feel of the sticks with the four channel controls.

Don't get discouraged. It can get boring, but I find that doing a little flight planning and trying to execute that works very well. One thing I started to do was make a simple flight plan like: take off, gain altitude to twice tree top height, fly a clockwise oval pattern twice, line up for landing. That pattern should not be so large that you can't see the orientation of the wings. It's hard though, when you're looking at the wings to determine if the plane is level vs. the horizon -- especially from all the different angles you're going to be seeing the plane at as it moves around.

Keep at it!
 

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#16
Yes, as someone who was also used to first person type simulators (including the microsoft flight sim on PC's) going to an RC sim was a big adjustment. As you found, having to fly a tight pattern within visual line of sight is a bit challenging. I had to get used to constantly turning or flying figure eights. It's really harder that one would expect, but controlling a vehicle remotely -- especially in all three dimensions, is a tricky skill.

Keep at it. That's what these simulators are for. When I started, it was a similar ratio of success and ... ahem... less than successful flights. I probably had over 100 flights before I was able to take off, fly a circle, and land without crashing. Getting the muscle memory is exactly what you mean by improving your feel of the sticks with the four channel controls.

Don't get discouraged. It can get boring, but I find that doing a little flight planning and trying to execute that works very well. One thing I started to do was make a simple flight plan like: take off, gain altitude to twice tree top height, fly a clockwise oval pattern twice, line up for landing. That pattern should not be so large that you can't see the orientation of the wings. It's hard though, when you're looking at the wings to determine if the plane is level vs. the horizon -- especially from all the different angles you're going to be seeing the plane at as it moves around.

Keep at it!
........ Well, I DID manage a 22 minute Flight earlier! Crash and Burn on the way down :mad::mad::giggle: but I am starting to get a little "muscle memory" (another Term I NEED to remember!!)
I'm going to keep at it, because it's getting me comfortable with multiple controls.

~ IF I could fly her with my Ground Radio, a 3 Channel Futaba 3PX, which I've been comfortable with for OVER 30 Years - I'd be Golden!!! :cool::p
 

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#17
@PoorManRC I know that everybody here recommends practicing with a simulator but I believe in Nike’s slogan “just do it.” And pretty much went for it skipping the simulator. Good luck buddy
Thank you, my friend!!
I have ALWAYS believed that. That's how I learned to ride a Bike, Drive, then Drive a Racecar...... use a Computer.... ect.
I was the Kid who NEVER used instructions when Building most of my Model Planes and Cars! (Occasionally, for Reference)

However, I do see some value in the Simulator! NOT FLYING, per se.... But gaining a comfort level with a completely NEW type of Transmitter, absolutely!!!
I've been in Ground RC Vehicles for SO LONG, that I've developed Muscle Memory completely counterintuitive to ANYTHING I would need to keep an Aircraft in the Air. :eek:

And...... I've now said this TOO OFTEN, but I used to Fly the Real Aircraft!!! Sadly, NONE of that translates to flying one from the ground, via a foreign (to me) Controller.

I've mentioned that I'm building two small, SLOW trainers..... THOSE I'm flying First. Gotta crawl before you can walk, Right?? ;)
Cheers!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
Mentor
#18
Your earlier statement as to the LAG in control is quite true but there is also the lack of physical feedback. As for tips to try and remember just handle the controls as you would a real aircraft. DO NOT stick bang, (unless you want to bail out) The plane will fly itself and perhaps better without you! Learn to get a feel for the controls, (muscle memory), gently!!!

Overcontrolling destroys more models than any other reason or cause! Learn to fly first and then learn aerobatics! Often and because of the apparent lag in responses a newb will keep increasing the control input until the aircraft responds adequately. This continual increasing of the control input does generally result in control inputs far in excess of the control input expected. There can be up to a half second response delay and giving extra control input does NOT increase the response speed. The result is that by the time you achieve the required response the control surfaces are already giving more corrective force than you wanted and a control overshoot will always result. Until a form of mind control is developed keep the model well within sight or you will have ZERO feedback with which to determine the aircrafts performance and attitude!

Whilst all of the above is obvious it is the hardest thing to teach the newbie!

It took me longer than most:oops:

Have fun!
 

PoorManRC

Well-known member
#19
Your earlier statement as to the LAG in control is quite true but there is also the lack of physical feedback. As for tips to try and remember just handle the controls as you would a real aircraft. DO NOT stick bang, (unless you want to bail out) The plane will fly itself and perhaps better without you! Learn to get a feel for the controls, (muscle memory), gently!!!

Overcontrolling destroys more models than any other reason or cause! Learn to fly first and then learn aerobatics! Often and because of the apparent lag in responses a newb will keep increasing the control input until the aircraft responds adequately. This continual increasing of the control input does generally result in control inputs far in excess of the control input expected. There can be up to a half second response delay and giving extra control input does NOT increase the response speed. The result is that by the time you achieve the required response the control surfaces are already giving more corrective force than you wanted and a control overshoot will always result. Until a form of mind control is developed keep the model well within sight or you will have ZERO feedback with which to determine the aircrafts performance and attitude!

Whilst all of the above is obvious it is the hardest thing to teach the newbie!

It took me longer than most:oops:

Have fun!
WELCOME to the Party, Bob!!! ;):cool:
As SOON as I started playing with the Simulator, I KNEW it wasn't the sophisticated, highly Accurate USAF Simulator, that I was accustomed to flying FPV!!! :eek:
As is said in your Country - No Worries Mate! I really believe, now that I've had a few Hours on this Sim, that I'll get far more out of it just developing Muscle Memory, than FLYING.

I'll take my MM Scout, on 2S, with the A Pack sized Motor (don't quote me, but I believe it is a 1650kv, 1810), and the 8x4.5 that Tim gave me with it, I should get some gentle, easy learning how to actually Control the AIRCRAFT, at 7.4 volts. ;)

The PLAN is to try to keep the Trainer within about 75 feet of me at all times. After all, HOW can I learn, if I can't actually SEE what the Plane is doing, clearly, with respect to the inputs I'm giving the TX??
I'm beginning to understand that there's different ways to learn this. Since I am all alone out here, I've been taking ALL of the excellent Advice from you Guys....

But if I'm going to get to the fun bit ASAP, I'm going to have to take all the invaluable Advice I've been given, USE it, but find my own path at the same time.

I've also Learned that TEACHING someone how to do this, is NO small task indeed!!! o_O:oops: I actually can't wait to be able to help someone get off the Ground.....
But I now know that it's no Cookie Cutter program, like in the Military!!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
Mentor
#20
WELCOME to the Party, Bob!!! ;):cool:
As SOON as I started playing with the Simulator, I KNEW it wasn't the sophisticated, highly Accurate USAF Simulator, that I was accustomed to flying FPV!!! :eek:
As is said in your Country - No Worries Mate! I really believe, now that I've had a few Hours on this Sim, that I'll get far more out of it just developing Muscle Memory, than FLYING.

I'll take my MM Scout, on 2S, with the A Pack sized Motor (don't quote me, but I believe it is a 1650kv, 1810), and the 8x4.5 that Tim gave me with it, I should get some gentle, easy learning how to actually Control the AIRCRAFT, at 7.4 volts. ;)

The PLAN is to try to keep the Trainer within about 75 feet of me at all times. After all, HOW can I learn, if I can't actually SEE what the Plane is doing, clearly, with respect to the inputs I'm giving the TX??
I'm beginning to understand that there's different ways to learn this. Since I am all alone out here, I've been taking ALL of the excellent Advice from you Guys....

But if I'm going to get to the fun bit ASAP, I'm going to have to take all the invaluable Advice I've been given, USE it, but find my own path at the same time.

I've also Learned that TEACHING someone how to do this, is NO small task indeed!!! o_O:oops: I actually can't wait to be able to help someone get off the Ground.....
But I now know that it's no Cookie Cutter program, like in the Military!!
The method my local club uses to help REAL pilots learn faster is to resort to the methods used by the French in WWI. The penguins!

We get them to do straight line runs, (take off runs), and when the plane lifts off we get them to cut the throttle and glide it straight ahead keeping the wings level. Each successive run the HOP height and distance is increased.

Next is to do a hop with a single turn and then land. and so on until the newb is able to do a single circuit and dead stick landing. After that we stop trying to teach and get him to go to safe height and use what he already knows. Using this approach we have a number of licenced pilots who are now RC capable all without a single crash, (some rough landings I will admit).

Just something to think about!

have fun!