Twitchity quad with power board - test build

Cyberdactyl

Misfit Multirotor Monkey
I stopped posting about the KISS esc's on this forum as people just didn't seem interested just like they weren't interested in SunnySky motors and Naze 32's a few months back so figured I'd sit and wait like before ;).

Please don't stop posting info or changes FGA. I think many are like me, they are very interested in the cutting edge of performance. The KISS ESCs are a bit different than Sunnysky or NAZE32, they just can't or don't want to pay the premium price. It's like watching Formula 1, we can't afford it, but we like hearing the latest. :cool:
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Timecop and Felix don't get along so Timecop won't allow OneShot on the Naze32

Not surprised by this but what a suk deal. Imagine the possibilities if these two worked together.

I stopped posting about the KISS esc's on this forum as people just didn't seem interested just like they weren't interested in SunnySky motors and Naze 32's a few months back so figured I'd sit and wait like before.

Another suk deal, FGA. :)

I have a pile of KISS ESCs. I don't yet know how to wire them so they aren't installed. I have a NanoWii. I don't yet know how to wire it so it isn't installed. I am struggling with setting failsafe on my FrSky D4R-II and until I figure this out, won't be ready to progress to KISS ESCs and the NanoWii.

I have the money to buy but not the electronic expertise. I had to re-learn how to solder last year when I got into the hobby. Like CyberD said, please don't stop posting about the hot newness. Some of us can't afford the tech. Some of us can but can't yet afford the time or have another hurdle to jump before we can move forward.

When I get to the KISS ESCs, I will be digging for whatever I can find to help me wire them. Ditto for the NanoWii.

Now if you had posted about failsafes on a D4R-II, I could be moving on. :)
 

Twitchity

Senior Member
I like reading all of the information on the KISS ESC's. I kick myself everyday for not placing an order when the first batch came out.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
There is a lot of debate on RCgroups as to whether OneShot makes a noticeable difference or not. It is agreed it does speed the FC/ESC link up but some people believe it is so minute an increase it is not noticeable by a human. OneShot differs in that instead of sending information from the FC to the ESC constantly at a frequency of 500hz (sometimes the same command is sent multiple times), the FC only sends info when it has something new to send and the esc holds the last command until it receives a new one. What this means is there is no bottleneck for the new info to get through. I haven't tried OneShot because I use Naze32 FC's (Timecop and Felix don't get along so Timecop won't allow OneShot on the Naze32) but I don't feel like I'm missing out since I can't see how much more locked in I could possibly get my quad. I'm keeping my opinion reserved until someone can do a No Oneshot/OneShot installed comparison like i did with the KISS esc/BS12a video...

Thanks for filling in some of the details on the KISS FGA, I haven't been following the KISS threads in much detail since I can't afford any yet - mostly my info is from when Felix first started posting about them mixed with that filters through the warpquad thread and my limited experience getting to enjoy them for a week. So I've got the big picture and the hands on experience - but can't go into detail at the level I'd like to ;)

As for oneshot...I felt a difference, I didn't have much time on them without oneshot and the difference was subtle...but I definitely felt a difference.

As for TC....I have a feeling that within 12 months Baseflight will fall off as the predominant firmware on the Naze32 boards due to TC's attitude. There are people who want to contribute code and improvements - but TC pushes them away far too often not because their code is bad...but because he just isn't interested in what they're perusing or takes personal issue with the developer that he lets cloud his opinion of their code. I should have a full Naze32 very soon to start experimenting with and I plan on trying out some of the alternatives to get a feel for them. I'd really like to look into Harakiri...but finding info on it is tricky if you don't speak German it seems. Cleanflight seems to be making some very interesting changes - but to be honest I kind of agree with TC more than I disagree about coding style and some of the development philosophies going into it. But at the end of the day it's not my project and what matters to me is how it flies development process be damned.

My prediction - within the next 12-24 months someone will come up with a baseflight fork that will REALLY piss off TC because it will break compatibility with the Naze32 hardware since there are some things about the Naze32 hardware that could be done better but TC maintained to stay backwards compatible with the board he was cloning in the first place.

We'll see how well my prediction holds out, but I've seen similar projects develop before and there are patterns I'm picking up on that seem to be going in predictable directions.

I stopped posting about the KISS esc's on this forum as people just didn't seem interested just like they weren't interested in SunnySky motors and Naze 32's a few months back so figured I'd sit and wait like before ;).

I think there's interest, but with the limited supply and premium price I'm not surprised there isn't much "chatter" here about them yet. Once supply stabilizes a bit better I expect to see more people giving them a go and hearing more and more praise for them.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see some knockoff designs start showing up within the next 3-4 months - but good FET's don't come cheap so I don't expect to see a big drop in price even on knockoffs without giving up some performance.

BTW: good job on the Quad Twitch and great going on the PDB jhitesma. I've been silently keep tabs on your progress.

Thanks, but I'm still kicking myself for some of the mistakes on the PDB :D Working on a Rev2 to address the glaring mistakes...will be interesting to see what kind of new mistakes I manage to make next ;)


I chose my parts for this build with an eye towards budget - but I really don't consider this much of a budget build. It's a development build and I knew going into it that even with a free frame that meant things could get expensive. Development is all about iteration and that takes time and money. I'm honored that Twitchity asked me to help and am having a great time with the process. I just picked budget minded components because 1) They were what I could afford and 2) I figure there's a higher than average change of carnage on this build so putting high dollar goods on there at this point just seems kind of foolish ;)

Once the PDB reaches a point I'm willing to call it a v1.0 and Twitchity feels confident his frame design is ready for public consumption I do plan on swapping to some 2204's and hopefully saving up for some KISS's. Then maybe I'll have a chance of keeping up with Alex and his warp when he comes back for break from college :D
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I have a pile of KISS ESCs. I don't yet know how to wire them so they aren't installed. I have a NanoWii. I don't yet know how to wire it so it isn't installed. I am struggling with setting failsafe on my FrSky D4R-II and until I figure this out, won't be ready to progress to KISS ESCs and the NanoWii.

Wire them up man! Other than the lack of a BEC they wire up just like any other ESC :) 2 power wires, 3 motor wires and a signal wire - boom you're done. When we swapped them on the warp it was maybe 5 minutes of soldering. But 30 minutes of assembling and disassembling arms to get the new heat shrink on :D

Don't worry about oneshot, even without it the difference will blow you away.

I have the money to buy but not the electronic expertise. I had to re-learn how to solder last year when I got into the hobby. Like CyberD said, please don't stop posting about the hot newness. Some of us can't afford the tech. Some of us can but can't yet afford the time or have another hurdle to jump before we can move forward.

But at least you're not afraid to learn :) You dug in on the switch to PPM with gusto and seem to be reaping the rewards! BTW - been meaning to send you a PM to see if you're interested in trying a DIY FlySky RX with PPM/Failsafe or if I'd be wasting postage and $5 worth of electronics sending you one to play with because you don't want to take your FrSky module out of your TX now ;)
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Wire them up man! Other than the lack of a BEC they wire up just like any other ESC :) 2 power wires, 3 motor wires and a signal wire - boom you're done. When we swapped them on the warp it was maybe 5 minutes of soldering. But 30 minutes of assembling and disassembling arms to get the new heat shrink on :D

Don't worry about oneshot, even without it the difference will blow you away.



But at least you're not afraid to learn :) You dug in on the switch to PPM with gusto and seem to be reaping the rewards! BTW - been meaning to send you a PM to see if you're interested in trying a DIY FlySky RX with PPM/Failsafe or if I'd be wasting postage and $5 worth of electronics sending you one to play with because you don't want to take your FrSky module out of your TX now ;)

PPM rocks!

I busted my Polakium Hex frame and am rebuilding it. I stole the Naze 32 off it to build the Twitchity Hex and have now stolen it back to mount on the new Polakium. Once that is done, I will be rebuilding my WarpQuad with the KISS ESCs and the Naze 32 and a ubec. This is a practice run for what is coming next. A rebuild of the Twitchity Hex.

Yes, I have 11 KISS ESCs (4 + 6 + 1 spare) sitting on my shelf....waiting...

I plan to put the NanoWii and KISS ESCs on the new Twitchity Hex and enable Oneshot.

I am not easily frightened. However I do tend to burn my ships to help with motivation. I torched my FlySky stuff BEFORE I had FrSky working. :) I 'broke' 5 copters in 5 minutes and had to figure it all out and re-build or be grounded until I had it working. One way I don't allow my laziness to constrain my OCDs. :)

It will happen and soon. I just need to get this Polakium rebuilt and am stuck on the receiver failsafe. :(

I actually got it so the motors started spinning when my transmitter was turned off.... Yep, I have work to do.
 

FinalGlideAus

terrorizing squirrels
No worries guys, I won't be so silent about things :)

Cranial, don't be afraid about playing with the KISS ESC's. Any help about them on the Warpquad is easily sought after on the Warpquad thread or you can ask me. When you do install them with the Naze 32 I have some PID's for you to use.

Jhitesma, I see a similar fate with TC. He will get what's coming in the end. BTW: the only decent code in clean flight was copied from a friends fork of the Naze which was done for a university final project.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
No fear FGA, just time constraints. :)

If it smokes, well, that's why I wear a denim bib and glasses when I power a copter up for the first time. Besides, that's what spares are for. :)

I saw a post by TC the other day where he answered a guy looking for help with GPS stating that he (TC) wanted nothing to do with GPS and didn't bother with it/support it or play with the code for it. I was looking for instructions on how to set mag declination but ended up with two conflicting answers and no real need. What I saw was LOTS of people wanting to take the Naze 32 further and getting no where with TC.

I know Flyduino has a Chrome App to handle the NanoWii. I haven't got into it and am supposing it isn't Baseflight. Any chance that also works with a Naze 32 or are the chipsets too different?


Also, personally, I would love to see FT do an episode with Flyduino. Felix is so cutting edge and Warthox is just amazing.
 

FinalGlideAus

terrorizing squirrels
The NanWii Chrome app and Baseflight are different and I believe the NanoWii app only controls things such as OneShot although I haven't played with it. I think you still need to play with Arduino with the NanoWii so it's not as simple as the Naze32.

You should see what Felix is working on next... He posted a video recently of a 2206 2000kv running 6s!
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Please tell me more, MUCH more! ;)

Thurmond

I need to start a thread about this over in the right section...and make an article when I get some time...but...Midelic on RCgroups is the mastermind behind this: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1921870 though I also have two of dave1993's chips on order to try: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1798913

For the Midelic setup it's really simple - I showed most of it in my "inspiration" thread in post #15: http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?11288-When-inspiration-hits&p=123926&viewfull=1#post123926

Basically it's just an arduino pro mini ($2.50 on ebay with free shipping from China if you shop around a bit, 8mhz is fine for this) with a A7105 module (Again about $2.50 with free shipping from China but you may have to buy a couple at a time to get the lowest price. And the small cheap ones are relatively limited range there are better A7105 modules for about $10-$15 with real antennas that have better range.)

Here's a 16mhz promini for $2.25 shipped since it's a 16mhz you could also put MW on there and have FC/RX controlled by the same chip: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Pro-Min...809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8fcee8e9

Here's one of the nicer A7105's: http://www.ebay.com/itm/A7105-Wirel...pt=US_Radio_Comm_Antennas&hash=item1c2a69a743

And here's the cheap A7105's: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-A7105...050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac6715d02 (Though for the best price on them you'll have to go to aliexpress and buy 5 or 10 at a time.)

It's just 6 wires between the RV module and the pro mini, if you want a full FC toss in a MPU-6050 breakout (again they go for about $3 or so on ebay) and 4 more wires.

Then add power/ground/PPM wires and you're set.

I have one on my bench tested and ready to go that I've been meaning to install on my Knuckle, just been too busy with the mini's :) The only thing I haven't fully tested yet is the failsafe setup, from what I can tell it just goes into a no signal style of failsafe but I haven't fully read the code yet just glanced at it.

The A7105's are full transciever modules so they can also be used to make TX modules, that's how I made the hubsan module to fly my proto-x with my 9x. Again it was thanks to code from Midelic.


dave1993's setup is a bit trickier since he codes in straight assembly and provides the chips pre-flashed as a bare chip so you don't get the support bits like an arduino. But for ultra tiny stuff they're the way to go.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Jhitesma, I see a similar fate with TC. He will get what's coming in the end. BTW: the only decent code in clean flight was copied from a friends fork of the Naze which was done for a university final project.

I'm guessing the taulabs stuff that TBS is using on the gemini? I haven't been following Cleanflight too closely - mostly just aware of it at this point. But I do like that the developer is very open to including outside contributions. And I seem to remember seeing some taulabs code in a commit. Once I get a Naze in my hands I'll be doing full research on 32bit firmwares. The afromini is nice...but the lack of USB is pushing my lazy buttons and keeping me from doing much experimenting with it ;)

I should have a full Naze32 in a week or so and part of the deal that's getting it for me is that I MUST experiment with it and share what I learn ;) So I'll have some threads on things like GPS and alternative firmwares started once I have the board in my hands and start to experiment.


I think it's obvious by now that I'm not one for polishing a project and presenting it but rather I like to experiment and share the good bad and ugly as I go :D


One thing I will say right now about the 32bit stuff...I hate STM's naming conventions. I get all jumbled up with their part names and can't keep them straight in my head at all. Yeah F1/F3/F4 is easy enough but the other bits of the naming just mess with me and I can never tell if I'm looking at the boards/chips I'm intending to look at or not without comparing the numbers 6 times over.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
The NanWii Chrome app and Baseflight are different and I believe the NanoWii app only controls things such as OneShot although I haven't played with it. I think you still need to play with Arduino with the NanoWii so it's not as simple as the Naze32.

You should see what Felix is working on next... He posted a video recently of a 2206 2000kv running 6s!

I haven't looked into nanowii too closely, so I know nothing about their app. But Nano wii is a 32u4 AVR based controller so it runs MW not Baseflight. So it's much more like working with MW (Arduino sketch with config.h changes) than working with naze/Baseflight.

Honestly I wasn't a big fan of 32u4 based MW setups until I got to play with the MotoWii. The 32u4 is the chip used on the Arduino Leonardo and it has built in USB which some people like...but when the arduino Leonardo first came out there were all kinds of issues with the drivers and compatibility so I kind of dealt with it by ignoring the Leonardo :D

But the 32u4 does have more hardware PWM outputs which is why it's used on the nano and moto boards since hardware PWM is (from what I understand, again I've skimmed the code only briefly) needed for oneshot. And the USB driver issues appear to be a thing of the past so the 32u4 is actually a pretty decent chip and having built in USB means not having to mess with an external adapter like the afromini and not having to add an extra USB chip like on the Naze.

To show how far my thinking about the 32u4 has changed - the controller circuit I'm working on for the Twitchity board is using a 32u4. Though after looking at the afromini and studying the burned out Naze on my desk and watching e_lm_70 and dave1993 work on their STM32 homebrew projects....I'm really thinking about just going straight to a STM32 based setup more like a Naze. I'll probably still do the 32u4 circuit first since I'm far more familiar with it.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Per Flyduino, no Arduino is needed for the NanoWii. Man, I hope no Arduino is needed. I can do it, but, dang....
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Per Flyduino, no Arduino is needed for the NanoWii. Man, I hope no Arduino is needed. I can do it, but, dang....

I think what they're saying is it's not needed if you're ok with the way it comes setup ;)

The nanowii manual still walks through how to flash with Arduino and it's still running MW (though they do have a specially modified version of MW which I suspect is necessary for their config util since it seems to be able to change a few things that aren't changeable without reflashing in normal MW.)

I don't see the nanowii modified MW source available anywhere though....
 

Balu

Lurker
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
Oneshot? Harakiri? Cleanflight? PPM? KISS? So much to learn...

The KISS ESCs are the ones from Flyduino, yes? I was thinking about getting a bag of the 18As.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Oneshot? Harakiri? Cleanflight? PPM? KISS? So much to learn...

The KISS ESCs are the ones from Flyduino, yes? I was thinking about getting a bag of the 18As.

Yes and good luck. They are sold out of the little 12a version but they seem to have the 18a back in stock.
http://flyduino.net/KISS-ESC-2-4S-18A_1

I want to use the KISS ESC if for no other reason than the jumper to change direction on the motor. :)
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Oh, almost forgot. Got my order from gothelirc today. With some fresh HQ5x3 props it feels really nice in the air. Was really windy again though so I didn't get to do too much testing.

I did get one more good crash in though, right into a cinderblock wall hard enough to rip my velcro battery strap in half.

No damage to the frame :D
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
The bearings did arrive and I can confirm that the 2x6x3 ABEC5 bearings from gothelirc are the correct size:

http://www.gothelirc.com/shopexd.asp?id=1249

I haven't had a chance to actually install them yet let alone test the motor....but they are the correct size. I started to install them over lunch then remembered that it was election day and headed over the polls instead. What a waste that was though as an independent in a state with closed primaries but that's a rant for another time and place ;)