Winter Build 2019-2020: Top Flite P-51 (0.60 size)

TooJung2Die

Master member
Good luck with the move. We moved across the country in 2017 and it was stressful. But I have a much bigger, nicer workshop as a result. :) Hope every thing goes smoothly. (y) All my airplanes were DT foam board so I stripped out the electronics and tossed about a dozen airplanes in the trash. I got to start all over! :cool:
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Thank you for all the support! I know my FT family always has my back but the support though all this so far has been overwhelming. Lots of kind messages and I appreciate every one of you that have reached out.

I was able to FINALLY edit out a video of the assembly of the prop mechanism. I have footage of the testing to try and edit too and I hope that will be able to be done sooner rather than later.
 

F106DeltaDart

Elite member
Awesome work! Will be watching this closely. I have the ARF of the same P-51 on the bench. I also have quite a few multiblade heads for 450 helis in the parts bin, so would be neat to put them to use.
 

BATTLEAXE

Legendary member
Great vids, very informative. I want a variable pitch system now, I am jealous lol. Congrats on the sale and repurchase of the house too (y)
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
Very cool! I must admit to some clenching going on over here when that vice started turning... :eek:

After seeing your success with this, I'm thinking to hold onto the next cheap helicopter I find at a swap meet for parts... :unsure:
 

BATTLEAXE

Legendary member
Very cool! I must admit to some clenching going on over here when that vice started turning... :eek:

After seeing your success with this, I'm thinking to hold onto the next cheap helicopter I find at a swap meet for parts... :unsure:
Thats a good idea
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Yeah, so the vice moving on its rotational axis was due to the fact that years ago, I lost the bolt that holds it there. :eek: The movement there is due to the thrust from the setup. I knew that would be a potential issue and after seeing this, I have purchased a replacement bolt. :cool:
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Well, for those who really don't care about my posts, you've not seen my social media posts lately. So, since you don't care this post is irrelevant.

Now that I've confused you all let's get up to speed.

I've had a VERY busy year of building since I moved in and I think it's safe to say that I'm ready to get back onto this build. A year ago I had a number of ideas that I have now moved past just the idea into the "results" category.

The idea here is that I had gotten this set of retracts for basically nothing but they were the wrong geometry. I spent $50 in parts at Robart and re-built them to be exactly what was needed for this project. I've seen many folks over the years gloss over a set of nice retracts simply because they were the wrong kind despite being such a good deal. Robart makes replacement parts and each numbered series is based on a weight class. All of their parts within a weight class are interchangeable. The parts take just moments to change out and make right again.

Moving on from there.

Those fancy retracts mean nothing unless they work right. The issue with this type of retract on a Mustang boils down to the inner gear doors. Since these will be easiest to setup on a servo, any sort of automated spring-down type of gear would be problematic with the inner gear doors. Since these retracts are NOT spring down type, there is NO failsafe for pressure loss. I've seen numerous planes needlessly belly land because after they pressurize their aircraft the head of the sun expands the air, softens the tubing, and causes pinhole leaks to happen. These leaks are not noticeable on take-off but when they land, there is not enough pressure, or NO pressure to lower the gear.

Let us all please give a round of applause for the FrSky telemetry system. While there are many great sensors and doodads out there for it, there is nothing like what I was envisioning. Many thanks to the creator and supporters of the openXsensor project on this one. It is an open-source arduino-based platform to make custom telemetry sensors for the FrSky, Graupner, and Multiplex radio systems.

With a bit of help from one of the supporters and @Craftydan, I was able to select and connect and pressure sensor to my telemetry system. The best part? I can use logic switches in my Horus radio that will override my physical gear switch at a pre-determined pressure level to automatically sequence the gear and gear doors. I can also program in an audible warning before it gets to that point.
IMG_0534.jpg IMG_0533.jpg IMG_0535.jpg

Further still there are a couple of other minor preparations going on in the background but I am getting some great momentum going for this build again. Stay tuned to this space for more updates.
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
Looking forward to more details on that sensor implementation! I've seen that open source sensor project before, but haven't fallen down the rabbit hole yet and would love to hear how it's like over there :)
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Looking forward to more details on that sensor implementation! I've seen that open source sensor project before, but haven't fallen down the rabbit hole yet and would love to hear how it's like over there :)
I'll put it this way: Me and code have never had any sort of relationship that would classify as positive in any way. That being said, I was able to manage. Download the sketch and have a look in Arduino IDE. Exclusively, I was in configuration.advanced.h

Still trying to unpack this...
Ask your doctor to prescribe massive amounts of sarcasm. I've not bee particularly prolific on the forum lately as I have found that I generally am able to actually interact and help more people through other platforms. Even over IG, I've been able to answer countless questions and helping folks with their questions about getting into the hobby. If you look at the vast majority of my build threads, they are generally full of post after post of me updating. Very little interaction so it very much feels like talking to a wall. So, in short, I'm serious with that statement, with a mix of sarcasm, and a sprinkle of passive-aggressive eye rolling.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
For some builders, their plan is to just dive right in and get to work. That plan sucks.

The thing with these kinds of massive projects is unforeseen roadblocks as well as the inevitable "burnout" that happens. road blocks can be a simple as not finding something you know you have or not knowing you need something and it takes 6 weeks to ship to you. During those 6 weeks you are stuck with no progress being made and your project then gets stalled because you get used to NOT working on it... even just a little bit. Burnout just happens when it happens and you have to dig deep to know yourself, your limitations, and when/how to step away to recharge.

I've been making build plans ever since my 2015 Sikorsky S-39 build. I built a scale 72+ span airplane from scratch to flying in 51 hours over 3 .5 days. How? a year's worth of planning. I had every part, every tool, every sequence of the build planned and ready to execute. It was a great lesson and one that I now keep to. This time last year I was in that planning mode. I did not want to start the actual build until I had a functional prototype of the constant speed/ variable pitch prop. The Mustang, as a subject itself, is really not that appealing or interesting to me. It's not a challenge to build either. I've done these Top Flite kits before. The idea was that I'd get the base challenge off the ground and primed for a fun end-goal. The other minor projects, like the above pressure sensor as well as other current background items, were to be small side projects to combat burnout.

So, what's the plan now? Well, the same as before but I've taken time to refresh it. I have a few other airplanes I've acquired over the course of the last 6 months that need painting details completed and frankly those will be a welcome distraction when burnout happens. I'll stay productive but see a new subject, different materials, and be able to take a break and be able to come back to the Mustang with fresh eyes and renewed motivation. Plan for items with easy and tangible gratification. The Fokker D.VI needs crosses and nose art. The Durafly ME-163 Komet needs paint and minor details... maybe a rocket ignition system. My MXS-R70 needs landing gear re-build (again). The FW-190 needs panel lines and paint. There are plenty of things for me to do and chose from as I see a need to recharge.

As for the plan itself, some additional parts are arriving as I have evolved the project from its original intent. To be fair, the objective of this build is to NOT be showy or flashy. I want it to be a bit understated so I'm not going crazy with sliding canopy or animated cockpit controls. There are no cowl flaps to move. There is ONE vent flap that I will do and gear doors. Cockpit will be detailed of course and a pilot, for sure.

Parts already on-hand:
Servos: had some help here from Horizon Hobby (more on that later)
Pneumatic retracts: Includes associated hardware required to function
Oleos and wheels
Tail electronic retract
Motor: includes some spare parts for the complex design
ESC
Receiver
hinges
glues/epoxy
fiberglass cloth
shop supplies: razor blades, towels, screws, nuts, specialty hardware like offset hinges

Parts due to arrive at this point are as follows:
FrSky Neuron 8A SBEC: I want the safety of a dedicated BEC separate from the ESC that will be doing work to govern the motor speed. The telemetry will be nice too.
RPM and dual temperature sensor: I need to be able to accurately measure and monitor the RPM for when it comes time to set the ESC governor as well as make changes to this based on testing results. Temperature sensor for the ESC and battery bay as all of this will be quite complex. Remember, this is essentially a helicopter setup in the nose of an airplane. Helis ususally have VERY open canopies to allow things to cool.
S.Bus to PWM converter: I have used these before. I like them for simplicity. The FrSky full-range receivers carry al 16 channels along with Smart Port data (telemetry) but unfortunately they have anywhere from 4 to 8 PWM outputs. This leaves at least 8 but up to 12 channels on the table. Those who tuned into my Top Flite Corsair build know that I used all 16 channels on that airplane. Let's cover that plan now.
Throttle
Aileron (X2 for differential if needed)
Elevator
Rudder/tail gear
Flaps
Main gear retract
Tail gear retract: needed due to endpoint adjustment differences between electric and pneumatic systems; doors to use mechanical closure
Main gear doors
Exhaust flap (may be able to slave to throttle position, needs more reading and research)
Lights (easy addition that does add depth to the model)
Ordinance drop (maybe, easy addition but may not bother)

That adds up to at least 12 channels. The converter takes all 16 digital channels and breaks them out to a PWM signal with pins for each channel output. It saves a little bit of $ as well as they are generally $10 cheaper than a receiver. Yes, I still try to stick to a budget on these big builds. As it is, I've already got about $600 into this project for those who would like a sense of cost.

So there you have it. Disagree if you want to but you can't argue with the efficiency of this extensive planning. Of course life happens. Like my move that stalled this project, which is why I stalled it the way I did. I did not want to come back to it until I had an adjusted plan for the new shop. My point here is to again reiterate that big winter builds can be just that, winter builds... not multi-year endeavors with multiple stop-starts that kill momentum. Make a plan and fully commit.
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
Good approach - working through a plan ahead of time, especially for big projects, is something I've found useful too. And it can be a fun part of the project too - getting all revved up and excited for the work to come!

When I'm not doing a really big or unique project, I do tend to slack off the depth of planning. To address burnout and unexpected project delays / derailments in those cases, I like to keep two projects going simultaneously so when one is stuck I can work on the other. And they don't both need to be plane projects either - I'm doing a HAM APRS weather station build in parallel with finishing up my Polikarpov build at the moment, and for a couple months there was a chain restoration and recaning in there too.

Back on the snarky side of the discussion here, you've got a good point about a lot of threads in the Balsa Builders section over the last few months. Quite a few threads from both new and experienced builders have gone to primarily updates and "thumbs up" like button presses. I think the world going through at least 4 traumatic simultaneous crisis and lots of stress hitting everyone may be draining the amount of energy people have overall. I know it's hit me plenty hard over the summer, and I'm just trying to claw my way back up to something like normal engagement. So in the spirit of "be the change we want to see in the world" I'm going to make an extra effort to be a more active participant in all the threads in our little corner of the forum, and hopefully inspire and encourage others to do so as well.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
I appreciate the sentiment. I usually chime in when I have something constructive to say. If anyone has a question though, I'm always happy to lend an answer. It's those types of interactions that have really made this community and yeah, for lack of a better term... it is lacking.
 

Tench745

Master member
First, a note about the engagement: Sometimes it's nice to just sit and watch a master work. I think a lot of us on the forums have seen what you can do and have asked the related questions already. Plus, the forums aren't exactly as out there for people to find like Twitter, or Instagram, or Facebook. I come here more often than I check Instagram because the signal-to-noise ratio is better. I know what it's like to have a build thread people don't comment on, I'll try to do better at engaging, because I'm definitely following.

To that end, I have two questions or topics of discussion. The first I could Google, but you're here, so why not ask?
Question the first:- I've never used or interacted with Sbus anything. When using the converter, does it handle all your PWM outputs, or can/do you still use the PWM outlets on the RX? How does one set this up through the radio?
Question the second: Could you go into some more detail on your planning process?
What does a "build plan" look like for you? Where do you like to start? How do you like to organize it? How do you know when you've planned enough and you're ready to start? How do you deal with unknowns? For example, on my Dumod build, I didn't know where I wanted to put a battery hatch until I had enough built to guesstimate where the battery will need to live for CG reasons. (Honestly, I'm still not sure what I want to do about that hatch, but that's neither here nor there.)
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I read all of your stuff. I usually dont comment as my questions are not so real world friendly as I don't think like others. For the most part what you do and put out is detailed enough not many questions arise other then ones on the unusual stuff or me thinking of a possibly different way to do it.

Bottom line is if you want interaction build in lures and lead people to ask them. Specially on important things you want to high light in a particular build / video / thread. That or be far less detailed so others have to ask to see the magic behind the curtain hehe.
 

Mid7night

Jetman
Mentor
As someone who admittedly usually just "jumps in" to projects, at least with less prep than you're describing, I take ZERO offense at your assertion that that method "sucks". :D

The monster B-52 was actually a really good experience for me in that respect: even though it was a SUPER compressed timeline - completed in 3 days - it never would have happened had it not been for almost a year of planning and prep, to say nothing of all the teamwork required to actually execute in the time required!

I love following you Josh. I know I don't interact a lot on the forums anymore, but I love following you because I learn something new just about every time. Keep it up dude. :cool:
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Question the first:- I've never used or interacted with Sbus anything. When using the converter, does it handle all your PWM outputs, or can/do you still use the PWM outlets on the RX? How does one set this up through the radio?

Question the second: Could you go into some more detail on your planning process?
What does a "build plan" look like for you? Where do you like to start? How do you like to organize it? How do you know when you've planned enough and you're ready to start? How do you deal with unknowns?

1) Think of SBus like a digital signal. Because it it is digital, there are multiple streams of data within the signal along with a code that orders them. You then have to have an interpreter and converter on the other end. The standard receivers that we use, like an RX8R or X8R, is like that interpreter and signal person all in one package but they are mute for half of the time. The converter is like an additional person you've hired to work with that fine person only the person you hired gives you the information the first one did but fills in the blanks/details that are left out. I don't have to do any additional work other than interpret this new set of data. The first person does no further work because they are already doing the maximum of their capability.

The advantage of the SBus system is that you are able to reduce wiring and mechanical complexity. There is also a more robust digital signal that can cover a longer distance without signal degradation. VERY large models encounter a lot of servo issues when the lengths of servo leads get over 4-5 feet. This is often why, in the past, multiple receivers were used at different locations within the aircraft with their own dedicated battery. SBus servos are amazing because they can be programmed so easily to pick up one specific signal and you can have a longer lead from the source without the signal degrading. This is only done through a specific servo programmer.

What I'm using here is merely an expansion of the receiver. Sure I could just use another 8-ch receiver and have the "redundant" receiving capability but that would cost more, draw more current (having two receiving signals), and in my experience, the FrSky ACCST protocol is plenty robust for the models I fly (read into this as not needed).

2) Planning is a personal approach. It really depends on how you think and how you build. I prefer to have read the entire assembly manual (if applicable) at least 6 or so times so that I clearly understand how things go together, what glues I need (and how much), and what hardware I'll need. I then need to make decisions on what features or modifications I plan to do. For example, if I plan to fiberglass a surface, I generally want to do all of that BEFORE assembling control surfaces and installation of fixed structures. Sanding fiberglass is a total pain in tight corners to I'm making a plan to do that before assembly to make my life easier. Looking over hardware requirements lets me know some of my budget planning. It also lets me know if something is a long-lead time item. An example from this project was the entire development time of the motor assembly. I had NO idea what to expect in terms of time or cost involved for its development let alone how much time it would take to get a 3D printed aluminum piece. Those unknowns are just part of the journey. I can tell you though, an off-the-shelf 4-blade rotor hub assembly is over $400 retail and my motor and assembly cost half that. The upshot too is that if I get down the road to testing and find that I cannot get things to perform as I would like, I have the ability to convert the motor back to normal and just roll with a 2-blade prop. No modifications to the airplane required.