angle booms on a spider configuration?

brettp2004

New member
I haven't but I'd be really curious to see how they'd work. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'm sure someone on here with more experience in quads can provide some input.
 

brettp2004

New member
For only $10 it's hard to go wrong. Let me now how it goes if you decide to do it. I want to try it too. It might fix the twitchy yaw that the spider quads like to do.
 

HawkMan

Senior Member
it won't work as well and you'll need to trim out a certain amount of forward drift causing it to tilt up all the time when hovering.

this is due to the spider config not being all booms at an equal angle from a central point and especial the front arms being far more straight out.

so the question is, why do you want angled arms on a spider ? spiders are usually at least 450 size camera ships. angled arms will lose efficiency and thus flight time. while they theoretically can help with balance on a camera ship you lose a lot of that since it's not a stable configuration (circular) to start with.
 

joshuabardwell

Senior Member
Mentor
I did it to my ElectroHub because there was too much effect on pitch/roll when yawing heavily. I have 10" props, which I suspect is part of the problem. I think smaller props would spin up/down faster and work better, but I like the efficiency of the larger props.

It worked great. Yaw performance was better. But if you use the FT tilt mounts, the motors will angle both inwards and forwards, because the booms extend diagonally from the center-line. The effect is that the copter hovers slightly nose-up. A more subtle effect is that yaw inputs induce forward motion. So if you are hovering and you spin in a circle, the copter will actually want to move in a spiral. This actually can be nice in FPV flight. I found it to require less control input to maintain a coordinated turn with the angled X config, compared to a configuration with a T-boom for the rear motors, which causes them to be angled only inwards, not forwards. If you think about how you do a turn, as you yaw, you also have to roll and tilt the copter into the turn. With the angled-forward motors, you basically only had to roll, unless the turn was very sharp. Ultimately, though, I switched to a T-style boom, because I wanted to isolate the inputs from each other. I didn't like that when I spun the quad around during hover, it would start to drift.

I prefer an A-tail configuration because it keeps the motor logic on yaw the same. With the default MultiWii motor directions, if you want to yaw to the right, the back left and front right motors spin up, and the other two spin down. If you think about the alignment of the motors in an A-tail quad, spinning up the back left motor yaws the quad to the right. If you think about a V-tail quad, the opposite is true. So with an A-tail quad, all you have to do is adjust the motor gains, but you don't have to reverse any motor wires or motor/prop directions or anything like that.

Some resetting of your motor mixes is appropriate. First, calculate the decrease in downward thrust do to the angle, and add that back in to the ptich gains on your rear motors. So you might have 100% pitch gain on the front motors, and 120% pitch gain on the rear motors.

Second, set the yaw gain on the rear motors to 100%, and decrease the yaw gain on the front motors. This will let the tilted thrust do most of the yaw work, and rely on the motor torque less. This is good because using motor torque to yaw can introduce unwanted pitch/roll effects, especially on slower motors with larger props. I found that I could mix about 25% to 35% yaw in to the front motors without producing unwanted effects.

Third, decide how you want to handle roll. With tilted motors, yaw inputs will also induce roll, and roll inputs will induce yaw. What can happen is that when you yaw, the copter starts to roll, so the FC spins up the opposing motors to counteract the roll. When the opposing rear motor spins up (to counteract the roll) it also fights the yaw that you were trying to accomplish. You either get the motors fighting each other, which reduces efficiency, or you get slower yaw performance, which is the whole reason you went to a V-tail in the first place. So what I suggest is putting 100% roll gains on the front motors and 0% roll gains on the rear motors. That way when the FC "fixes" the unwanted roll, it's only using the front motors, which have less effect on torque.

so the question is, why do you want angled arms on a spider ?

My ElectroHub is around 450 size, but it's no "camera ship". I fly it fast proximity FPV. I put angled arms on it because yaw performance was poor in the flat configuration. If I had it all to do over again, I would build a 250 mini quad, but I didn't, so I fly what I've got. If it was a camera ship, then I would agree with you. A camera ship should not be doing fast yaw at all. It should be flown slow and steady and smooth. That being said, I was having some problems with stability even under relatively moderate yaw, and going to an A-tail setup fixed it.
 
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Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
I did it to my ElectroHub because there was too much effect on pitch/roll when yawing heavily. I have 10" props, which I suspect is part of the problem. I think smaller props would spin up/down faster and work better, but I like the efficiency of the larger props.

It worked great. Yaw performance was better. But if you use the FT tilt mounts, the motors will angle both inwards and forwards, because the booms extend diagonally from the center-line. The effect is that the copter hovers slightly nose-up.

...

Um Joshua, I think the OP is referring to these:

https://store.flitetest.com/angle-arm-brackets-electrohub/

not these:

https://store.flitetest.com/v-tail-quad-motor-mount/

He's trying to build a spider with dihedral, not a V/A-tail (Personally, I'm on your side -- IMO better layout, but others disagree. it's a personal taste thing).


shawnregan,

I'd agree with hawkman that it's less than ideal for a *spider* but you can get much of the same effect with a wide-X format, and in that case the dihedraled arms will work as advertised.

To set it up, drill the boom patterns the same on the back as you would the front. the wider stance will give you a better view for a camera out the front, with only a minor loss in pitch stability -- which the angled arms will help.
 

joshuabardwell

Senior Member
Mentor
He's trying to build a spider with dihedral, not a V/A-tail (Personally, I'm on your side -- IMO better layout, but others disagree. it's a personal taste thing).

Oh heck. I guess I wrote a novel for nothing. Please disregard, OP!
 

shawnregan

Junior Member
it won't work as well and you'll need to trim out a certain amount of forward drift causing it to tilt up all the time when hovering.

this is due to the spider config not being all booms at an equal angle from a central point and especial the front arms being far more straight out.

so the question is, why do you want angled arms on a spider ? spiders are usually at least 450 size camera ships. angled arms will lose efficiency and thus flight time. while they theoretically can help with balance on a camera ship you lose a lot of that since it's not a stable configuration (circular) to start with.

I was thinking the angled arms would make it perform even better or hover better. That is why I asked you guys that know more. :)

Thanks for the information.
 

Shadow74

Multi-rotor madman
Here is one of my early copter designs with my angle brackets. In fact when I got asked to build "Rotor" for the Rotor DR1 movie...this is the frame I built. It would have gotten the same body work added to it by the artist.....however they decided they wanted a Tri instead so this just ended up being my fun flyer. (its one of my fav multi's to fly....you'll see why in the attached video) :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_JFi3PsHog
 

yaz

Junior Member
Shadow, you inspired to build a first tricopter with the video you guys made using the electrohub. Would there be any value to incorporate the angled booms into this design? What is the angle you use? Thanks