Enforcing new laws at Flite Fest

[Merv]

…..Each one of them have to have their own yet to be determined identification device that connect to the internet thru your cell phone to the 30 dollar a year....

I must disagree, Josh said @ 2:10, "The hobby flier has nothing to buy or put on the plane, just download the app and put in the information"

It's the commercial operators that NEED the ID tags and internet connectivity NOT the hobby flyer. Josh may be incorrect, but that is what he said.

Edit: I no longer believe this video is accurate. I believe the FAA changed the rules after this video was published in November 2019

 

[PsyBorg]

Currently yes.. not once they start working on FRIAS and that all is in place. For now they are going with that full / limited/ hobby identification thing until all that gets in place. Its quite misleading actually.

Even if that alone is what needs to happen at a Flite Fest its STILL going to hammer the event hard with people from all over the country having to log on with their phones in a place where reception is sketchy at best. Not to mention the roaming costs on some service plans to connect a phone out of state.

Edit: Ill toss another wrench into that... Will the volunteers on the flite line have to physically watch every pilot log in the flight plans to ensure "Those few" or "That guy" that thinks there are so many people flying it wont matter. There will I am sure be officials at Flite Fest to observe and see how any of this functions not necessarily there to slap people with fines but they WILL be there you can bet. Same with Joe Nall and any of the other big events that happen. Flite Test will not be the only one under scrutiny.

 

[Flying Monkey fab]

must disagree, Josh said @ 2:10, "The hobby flier has nothing to buy or put on the plane, just download the app and put in the information"

That was sometime back when the video was shot, we don't know from the nprm.

 

[Merv]

Currently yes.. not once they start working on FRIAS and that all is in place. For now they are going with that full / limited/ hobby identification thing until all that gets in place. Its quite misleading actually.

Even if that alone is what needs to happen at a Flite Fest its STILL going to hammer the event hard with people from all over the country having to log on with their phones in a place where reception is sketchy at best. Not to mention the roaming costs on some service plans to connect a phone out of state.

I agree that we have completely different outlooks on this subject.

To me the FAA is implementing a system that the commercial boys will have to stay out of our way. All they want us to do is raise our hand and say I'm flying now, stay away. Once you have declared an area for hobby use, nobody is going to care how many planes or quads are in the air. Just stay away. Flite Fest can have all the combat they want.

They just are trying to prevent a midair collision with a very expensive commercial quad.

 

[Grifflyer]

I must disagree, Josh said @ 2:10, "The hobby flier has nothing to buy or put on the plane, just download the app and put in the information"

It's the commercial operators that NEED the ID tags and internet connectivity NOT the hobby flyer. Josh may be incorrect, but that is what he said.

I really hope that is the case. So far from what I've gathered, this obviously is very bad and there is a ton of grey area, I've submitted my comment to the proposed ruling. If I just have to pay $30 a year and push a button on my phone that says I'm flying in the area I'll be totally okay with that, I don't want to have to put $200 transponders on each of my aircraft.

On the subject of Flite Fest I do believe that it will be held at Furey Field, at least for the time being. They recently invested money into the property to put up a new building to house the FT Store, which wouldn't make sense if they plan on switching locations soon. They might hold the event at Edgewater once they purchase the whole 18 hole golf course though, but I'm just speculating.

 

[PsyBorg]

@Merv That is backwards mate. WE are the ones that have to stay out of everyone elses way. If it works out that Amazon or Fedex or whom ever uses a flight path over Furey field or Edgewater we are the ones that lose. In reality that more then likely wont be the case but our hobby is last in the food chain and we have to bow to everyone else. That means commercial use will have priority over flight paths with FRIAS being issued between those areas IF they happen to be suitably located. They will NEVER divert money over fun.

 

[Keno]

For info on FAA's restricted altitude flight restriction can be found here https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/uas_facility_maps/
then go to quick links and click on View all UAS Facility Maps and grids. Type in your address or Minerva, OH if you wish and you see flight restrictions for altitude. Just some info on that area of concern. If you dig deeper into this mess it gets confusing on their site with possibility of being misunderstood and misinterpreted.

 

[Merv]

That is backwards mate. WE are the ones that have to stay out of everyone elses way. ….

Let's agree to disagree on that point.

Let's look at the evidence. According to the video, the commercial guys are the ones with the expensive transponder, not the hobby flyer. In other words, they just want to know we are flying. We, the hobby flyer, will have no idea they are coming. They want to know where we are there so they can avoid us. The commercial guys will also need to avoid each other. Can you image a FedEx drone taking out an Amazon drone?

It is far cheaper for the commercial guys to fly another few thousand feet to avoid us than to have a midair. They just want to know where we are.

 

[sprzout]

Currently yes.. not once they start working on FRIAS and that all is in place. For now they are going with that full / limited/ hobby identification thing until all that gets in place. Its quite misleading actually.

Even if that alone is what needs to happen at a Flite Fest its STILL going to hammer the event hard with people from all over the country having to log on with their phones in a place where reception is sketchy at best. Not to mention the roaming costs on some service plans to connect a phone out of state.

Edit: Ill toss another wrench into that... Will the volunteers on the flite line have to physically watch every pilot log in the flight plans to ensure "Those few" or "That guy" that thinks there are so many people flying it wont matter. There will I am sure be officials at Flite Fest to observe and see how any of this functions not necessarily there to slap people with fines but they WILL be there you can bet. Same with Joe Nall and any of the other big events that happen. Flite Test will not be the only one under scrutiny.

Bill, I think you might be mistaken. Aircraft in a FRIA do NOT need Remote ID tags. Therefore, if you hold an event at a location that is established as a FAA Recognized Identification Area, you CAN fly WITHOUT a Remote ID tag:

C. UAS WITHOUT REMOTE IDENTIFICATION EQUIPMENT



Under the proposed rule, the vast majority of UAS would be required to have remote identification capability, however as discussed in section X. A. 3, a limited number of UAS would continue to not have remote identification. The FAA envisions that upon full implementation of this rule, no unmanned aircraft weighing more than 0.55 pounds will be commercially available that is not either a standard remote identification UAS or a limited remote identification UAS. However, there will be certain UAS including amateur built aircraft and previously manufactured UAS that might not have remote identification capability. A person operating a UAS without remote identification equipment would always be required to operate within visual line of sight [6] and within an FAA-recognized identification area. Under the proposed rule, an FAA-recognized identification area is a defined geographic area where UAS without remote identification can operate. An area would be eligible for establishment as an FAA-recognized identification area if it is a flying site that has been established within the programming of a community based organization recognized by the Administrator. The FAA would maintain a list of FAA-recognized identification areas at https://www.faa.gov. FAA-recognized identification areas are discussed further in section XV of this preamble.

The above is straight from the Federal Register at: https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ntification-of-unmanned-aircraft-systems#h-19

This is also a proposed rule, not actual law as of yet. If you feel that you hate the article and want to disagree with it, go there and voice your public comments on it. It's available for public comment until 3/02/2020.

(For those immediately wanting to make comments on this article, please feel free to comment, but please make concise, thoughtful comments. Otherwise, you'll just give the people considering this the attitude that we're all a bunch of ignorant yokels who want to keep flying "because 'Murica" - I'm sure people know the mindset - and your comments are likely to be dismissed by the people who are going to rule on this)

And to steer this back towards the topic of rules for Flite Fest, I see FRIAs being issued for Furey Field and Edgewater so that flying can continue there, just like there would be for other current AMA flying sites if the rule goes into effect. I want to stress that this could change; this is just what's proposed, and not law yet. People are already assuming this is the rule and we're all doomed, and I don't see that yet.

 

[PsyBorg]

@sprzout ty for a constructive post.

Again we dont know how fast this will all be implemented so I am taking this all literally in the mindset of government officials.

So.

FT kits are sold online and in stores.. "Commercially available craft" thus requiring transponders to be included in the kits.

"Amateur built or previously manufactured craft" FT planes do have the capability to carry remote ID so they are in a grey area for being excluded. They can fly under the "Limited" remote ID rule at Flite Fest but again the logistics to log in on phones there is questionable for some at Furey Field.

CBO field exemptions. As far as I know the FAA has yet to finalize what the criteria is to be a CBO thus there are still no approved CBO's. It also says the FRIAS will be used for previously established fields of a CBO for which Flite Test has never been recognized as a CBO like the AMA used to be.

That brings us to Furey Field and or Edgewater being certified as a FRIA. Neither will get a free pass to become a FRIA. There is a high likelihood I will agree they will and I think that is why Flite Test has been involved with this process to learn what will be deemed as a CBO as well as put themselves in a good position to be certified a CBO out of the gate. But to date this is not a lock.

This again is why I started the thread to see if Ideas or things that may not have been thought about are brought up to ensure Flite Fest goes on unhindered as well as a place where the FT core can post updates, or any other information that is important to us all. Specially for the ones here NOT on Facebook or in the FT you tube membership program where this type information has been put out

 

[Flite Risk]

Local government, Malvern, Carroll County might likely push for the Fed to look the other way.

FF does a whole lot to bring a lot of cash to the area and we all know cash greases the skids.

It would be interesting to quantify in terms of dollars what FF brings to the area.

Remember our host has a lot of clout in his neck of the woods.

I think FF will be left alone.

 

[The Hangar]

Local government, Malvern, Carroll County might likely push for the Fed to look the other way.

FF does a whole lot to bring a lot of cash to the area and we all know cash greases the skids.

It would be interesting to quantify in terms of dollars what FF brings to the area.

Remember our host has a lot of clout in his neck of the woods.

I think FF will be left alone.

I feel the same way. I think (at least really really hope!) that ff will continue.

 

[evranch]

FT kits are sold online and in stores.. "Commercially available craft" thus requiring transponders to be included in the kits.

I'm a Canadian so I have no skin in this game - but I would assume "Commercially available craft" would work much like the 51% rule on ultralights and experimental aircraft. It's easy to make the argument that the builder is putting in far more than 51% of the effort when building a laser-cut foamboard kit.

Most serious quad hobbyists likewise build their own quads from frame and motors, you don't see many racers or serious freestylers flying RTF builds.

Hobbyists have been granted loopholes for decades, from ultralight aviation to the U-Brew breweries where all that is legally required is that you pitch in the yeast, thus "brewing it yourself". I roll my own cigars from imported leaf that is considered an "unfinished agricultural product" and is exempt from Canada's heavy tobacco taxes.

We have our own RPAS regulations here in Canada now where you are supposed to register a tail number for every airframe, and everyone is just proceeding to ignore them as loudly as possible. Plenty of birds in the air, zero enforcement unless you are providing a commercial service.

 

[sprzout]

@sprzout ty for a constructive post.

Again we dont know how fast this will all be implemented so I am taking this all literally in the mindset of government officials.

So.

FT kits are sold online and in stores.. "Commercially available craft" thus requiring transponders to be included in the kits.

"Amateur built or previously manufactured craft" FT planes do have the capability to carry remote ID so they are in a grey area for being excluded. They can fly under the "Limited" remote ID rule at Flite Fest but again the logistics to log in on phones there is questionable for some at Furey Field.

CBO field exemptions. As far as I know the FAA has yet to finalize what the criteria is to be a CBO thus there are still no approved CBO's. It also says the FRIAS will be used for previously established fields of a CBO for which Flite Test has never been recognized as a CBO like the AMA used to be.

That brings us to Furey Field and or Edgewater being certified as a FRIA. Neither will get a free pass to become a FRIA. There is a high likelihood I will agree they will and I think that is why Flite Test has been involved with this process to learn what will be deemed as a CBO as well as put themselves in a good position to be certified a CBO out of the gate. But to date this is not a lock.

This again is why I started the thread to see if Ideas or things that may not have been thought about are brought up to ensure Flite Fest goes on unhindered as well as a place where the FT core can post updates, or any other information that is important to us all. Specially for the ones here NOT on Facebook or in the FT you tube membership program where this type information has been put out

The way I'm reading the email that was sent out from the FAA on Dec. 26th is that, if you are flying in a FRIA, you won't need the smartphone app, provided you fly under 400 ft. and within line of sight. As for CBO exemptions, I see that, even if Flite Test isn't recognized as a CBO, I'm more than certain the AMA will be recognized as one, and will therefore be able to apply for Furey Field and Edgewater as FRIAs for Flite Test. Being that they want you to be AMA members to fly at their events, I'm guessing they'll find a way to get those areas to be covered for flights - that's the pragmatist in me looking at it.

And as for the "commercially available craft", I think they're looking at the DJI/Horizon Hobby/Motion RC/etc., BNF/RTF setups. A FT plane seems like it would fall under the "amateur built" category, along with any balsa kits out there. But I'm not 100% sure about that - and it seems it would be moot if you are flying under Part 107 for commercial use, or if you were flying your home build outside of a FRIA. That's my understanding from what has been described under the proposed rule, and as discussed previously, there's no guarantees that this will actually be what happens. Either we have more draconian FAA laws, or they look the other way, or it gets thrown out (the last one I doubt will happen, because we have too many Goober Pyles out there that think everyone's out to "spy" on them with aircraft and will protest, despite the fact that they're not important enough for anyone to even WANT to spy on them, much less look at them LOL)

Again, a lot of my comments are subject to conjecture and interpretation, but it seems reasonably clear that they're trying to give legitimate flying fields an out for requiring the transponders and using the smartphone apps, should this come to pass.

 

[LitterBug]

Either we have more draconian FAA laws, or they look the other way, or it gets thrown out (the last one I doubt will happen, because we have too many Goober Pyles out there that think everyone's out to "spy" on them with aircraft and will protest, despite the fact that they're not important enough for anyone to even WANT to spy on them, much less look at them LOL)

Really good to see your mostly positive spin on this and I agree with you for the most part; but,
I still stand by my firm belief that this has almost NOTHING at all to do with safety, and EVERYTHING to do with commercialization of the below 400 ft. airspace.

Cheers!
LitterBug

 

[The Hangar]

Really good to see your mostly positive spin on this and I agree with you for the most part; but,
I still stand by my firm belief that this has almost NOTHING at all to do with safety, and EVERYTHING to do with commercialization of the below 400 ft. airspace.

Cheers!
LitterBug

+1

 

[skymaster]

I am confused shouldn't the park be registered as a flight designated area for (UAS) unmanned aircraft systems. this way no one has to do anything not even pull out your phone. this way if the park is registered as a designated area all private and commercial airports should now that the place is a a recreational area for drones. and should fly above 400ft. please correct me if i am wrong .

 

[Captain Video]

I have a son attending The Ohio State University in Civil Engineering. One of his instructor told a story about project which required him to fly a quadcopter over an interstate. He went on to regail his class of the hoops through which he had to jump, the documents that needed signed and on and on. He was denied several times but he ultimately prevailed. The day of the flight cam and no fewer tan twenty officials we on hand to observe his ten second flight. He was afraid the plug could be pulled at any time. The bureaucracy to perform this simple task seems to be so complex I hope the Fedexs and the amazons could be tied up in paperwork to make drone delivery unappealing. I still don't have much hope the FCC will get a"clue" about what we do and how little threat we represent.

 

[PsyBorg]

The way I'm reading the email that was sent out from the FAA on Dec. 26th is that, if you are flying in a FRIA, you won't need the smartphone app, provided you fly under 400 ft. and within line of sight. As for CBO exemptions, I see that, even if Flite Test isn't recognized as a CBO, I'm more than certain the AMA will be recognized as one, and will therefore be able to apply for Furey Field and Edgewater as FRIAs for Flite Test. Being that they want you to be AMA members to fly at their events, I'm guessing they'll find a way to get those areas to be covered for flights - that's the pragmatist in me looking at it.

And as for the "commercially available craft", I think they're looking at the DJI/Horizon Hobby/Motion RC/etc., BNF/RTF setups. A FT plane seems like it would fall under the "amateur built" category, along with any balsa kits out there. But I'm not 100% sure about that - and it seems it would be moot if you are flying under Part 107 for commercial use, or if you were flying your home build outside of a FRIA. That's my understanding from what has been described under the proposed rule, and as discussed previously, there's no guarantees that this will actually be what happens. Either we have more draconian FAA laws, or they look the other way, or it gets thrown out (the last one I doubt will happen, because we have too many Goober Pyles out there that think everyone's out to "spy" on them with aircraft and will protest, despite the fact that they're not important enough for anyone to even WANT to spy on them, much less look at them LOL)

Again, a lot of my comments are subject to conjecture and interpretation, but it seems reasonably clear that they're trying to give legitimate flying fields an out for requiring the transponders and using the smartphone apps, should this come to pass.

I seriously doubt that the AMA would apply for Flite Test. Not only would it be questionable in the legal aspect but would again put its full restraints on event attendees that go to Flite Fest. Thus the things that make Flite Fest special would no longer be allowed to happen. Case in point combat. The AMA does not back Flite test because of that let alone the many other "relaxed" things that happen. Flite test only uses AMA for the insurance aspect to cover permit requirements for an event of this type. AMA rolls with it as they get a few thousand more paid memberships out of it. Nothing more nothing less. At best AMA sanctions Furey Field and Edgewater as AMA approved sites. Its still on Flite Test to apply for and get the FRIA just like it would be for your local fields.

Granted now the cooperation between the two is more closely related as the survival of both entities is on the chopping block so who knows what this years Flite Fest will be like. If these new rules get put into place it will make running Flite Fest an even bigger logistical nightmare. Who would enforce them to make sure everyone is going by the book.

Who would be responsible if they were not. Flite Test is the promoter of the event, what impact would there be on them if Joe Bonehead decides rules dont apply to him and has a fly away beyond the event causing an issue. I am sure they ultimately would not be held responsible but that would put a bad mark on them in regards to the local community and possibly lose some support for Edgwater. Then there would be the cost to defend themselves in this law suit happy world we live in. Then I am sure the media would be all over that and sensationalize the happening.

Yes there are MANY MANY uncertainties but if they are are all not looked at and planned for ahead of time Flite Fest may not happen at all this year.

I think I need to step away from this for a bit. Spent more time reading the word vomit in these publications and proposals this morning. I have found MANY contradictions between some of them. Its hard to form a valid response without rock solid proof when they do that.

 

[MCNC]

I am waiting for flitetest to take some stand and explain their understanding of what is happening and when. I have waited 20 years to get into this hobby and now it feels like it is upside down. Even if FT knows how to get their own field approved, the market will probably react negatively and the expenses soar. Come on guys, address the forum please.