Help! Rocket Launched Lifting Body

BayDesigns

Active member
This is a glider in the absolute loosest sense of the word. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it's an aircraft which gets lift from the shape of its fuselage rather than wings. They were investigated by NASA in the 1960s as a way to return astronauts from orbit! There's no good place to put this, but I figured that this fit best. I saw a video about these aircraft and it really intrigued me, so I decided to see if I could design such an aircraft. I'm planning on using small rocket motors to launch this to altitude, but this presents an issue. There are 2 types of engines available- booster and traditional. Boosters don't have an ejection charge, but they do throw small flaming bits of propellant forward to ignite the next stage. Traditional motors throw little or no debris forward, but they create a lot more gas which will create more pressure. Which one should I use? They both have benefits and drawbacks which will have to be addressed.

AMA rules state that rocket motors must remain attached to the aircraft, and this is absolutely a good plan. Based on this, there will be a retainer holding the motor in its sleeve, and pressure will have to be vented overboard somehow to avoid damage. How can I do this? As far as venting the gas overboard goes, it should be a simple matter of creating a few channels from the top of the motor to the outside, but if I use booster-type motors, I also have to deal with the issue of flaming debris. Dumping flaming chunks of propellant out the back of the aircraft is a bad plan. Yes, it's almost certain that they'll burn out before hitting the ground, but what if they don't? Keeping them on board also presents an issue- the aircraft will be 3D printed, and holding burning material inside could melt through the duct.

To sum it up, my questions are this- what motor style should I use? How should I vent gas and possibly debris outside? And how can I do this without melting through the airframe?
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Comments: Typically method of launch does not determine whether or not it's a glider. Mode of main flight does. This qualifies as a boosted glider. BTW the concept is rather interesting.

Boosters are taped together so the hot gasses pressurized the next stage and it's a combination of hot gas and pressure that lights it. You can use a regular as a first stage, but after the coast delay you typically get a lawn dart. They may throw bits of burning propellant forward, but that seems to been minimal when the process was demonstrated to the CA dept of forrestry back in the '80s when we were certifying them as safe class C propellant devices. The fuel tends to stay intact unless they have been dropped.

You just need a hole at least 3/4 the size of the open end. Any configuration or combination. The inside needs to be flame resistant for a very short time, one layer of really thinned white glue suffices, fuel proofer dope, latex house paint..........High temp BBQ paint........

The used motor casings are made fireproof with a baking soda paper soaked paper. Also demonstrated to the CA govt to their satisfaction. This comment is mostly for the homebuilder motor guys, not applicable to commercially bought stuff.

Use what ever you want. I have a bunch of B4-4s that are 50 years old and sometimes fire erratically, but setting up for a low impulse D and adapting the tube to a smaller diameter is a sure bet to ramp up slowly and not shred the wings the first launch. I also might suggest experimentation on boost gliders using very cheap expendable planes is in order. My favorite here is tape reinforcing a $5 walmart toy glider and strapping tape a motor tube onto the bottom.

Lots of lifting bodies in history. Barnaby Wainfain is a devotee and built the Facetmobile ULA. Bunches of flying wings too. As Rick used to say DO IT, FLYYY IT"
 

BayDesigns

Active member
That's everything I needed! I'm thinking I'll set the motor sleeve up for a large motor and then print inserts to fit a smaller motor in for initial flights. I'm not so much worried about shredding the wings since it by definition has no wings (though I may add very small surfaces to help with stability). I'll likely add a parachute because these aircraft are so unstable, so I want a way to knock off a test if it gets out of hand. Regarding fireproofing, will any paint do? I have some Testors enamel paint lying around. The whole premise of boosted gliders is really interesting, so thanks for the help!
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Testors chars so does spraypaint, haven't had one catch fire yet but i have one that's really crusty with black powder residue. Realize it's hot for about 1/2 second. If it passes a lighter flame test for that long, it's ejection gas proof Sorry, wings came out instead of surfaces. I loose a lot of fins, sometimes.
 

BayDesigns

Active member
Testors chars so does spraypaint, haven't had one catch fire yet but i have one that's really crusty with black powder residue. Realize it's hot for about 1/2 second. If it passes a lighter flame test for that long, it's ejection gas proof Sorry, wings came out instead of surfaces. I loose a lot of fins, sometimes.
Got it! Sorry to keep asking questions, but I've got another. By white glue, do you mean just typical Elmer's? Or do you mean wood glue? Also what do you thin it with? Thanks for tolerating all these questions.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Part of the job requirements for being old, no apology required and if you don't ask you might not find out. OTOH, thanks for listening to my inane patter.

Not sure where you're at, so used generic glue name, Elmers it is, and water is the solvent. If you maintain a Mohawk, you could use that stiffener. The critical point it to use an ablative material that is less flammable that your structure. Foamboard melts at exhaust temps, gets weak lots cooler all of which is bad juju. And believe it or not, 20year old balsa burns at 250 degrees
 
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BayDesigns

Active member
I hadn't considered that an ablative coating could be used! The issue of erosion over time is worth noting, but not something I mind doing- I rather enjoy doing routine maintenance outside of crash repairs. Since it sounds like you've used it, how many cycles does white glue typically last? Thanks again!
 

Piotrsko

Master member
Oldest rocket is 36 years maybe 100 launches. Called Estes Aerobee, was a 3 stage, one stage now. The booster system recovery didn't function well, everything else original