[HELP] QAV250 (cheap) build

OPO

New member
Hi guys,

After watching flitetest for quite some time now I finally decided to make my own 250 quad, I own a RC eye xtreme but I wanted to make something custom.

After searching online for a bit I think I have gotten the right setup for a beginner.

For a transmitter, I am using the Spektrum DX6i and for the receiver OrangeRx R620 from Hobbyking.

I am using the following 'kit' for all the parts since I do not really know how to get the right motors and ESC(Hopefully, I will learn it by having a base I can work on).

Click here to see the kit.

And for the power I have bought the LION POWER 3S lipo battery 11.1v 2200mAh click here for the product page.

So my question is, do I have all the parts? If so are they compatible? (From what I checked they are). If I am missing any parts which ones? And do you guys have any tips/suggestions for me so I can have a painless build.

I am new on this forum, so I am sorry if this is not the place to post this.
 
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cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Welcome to FliteTest! Your post is in just the right place. :)


The kit you are looking at uses 1806 2280kv motors. The frame has a max prop length of 5". Both are limiting factors that reduce the power ceiling on that copter. It isn't necessarrily a bad thing, but you have weight limits you need to be aware of.

You will be underpowered for such a heavy lipo.

I would run with a MAX of a 1300mAh 35C lipo. 1300 to reduce the weight and 35C so you don't have performance issues.

I run two Polakium plastic (3D printed) frames with 1806 motors. One is a hex the other a quad. I run 1000mAh lipos on the quad and a max of an 1800mAh on the hex. I get 8-10 minutes average flight time and I fly low, fast and hard with loops, spins and rolls.

I run 2200mAh lipos on hexes with 2204s running 6045 rotors or quads and tris with 2212s at 1450kv runnin 8" rotors which have MUCH MUCH more power than 1806s and 5" rotors.

I recommend you run a 1000mAh 35C lipo to learn to fly and if you wish to in the future, upgrade to a 1300. Here is why.

Assuming you are successful building the copter, you will crash and break it. It happens to EVERYONE. That is part of the hobby.

The more your copter weighs, the more inertia it will have in a crash. The more inertia, the more damage to the copter and anything it hits and the more it will cost you in money and time to fix.

The lipo is the single heaviest component this copter will carry in the air. When you are starting out, smaller lipos give you more air time simply because large lipos smash copters to bits when you crash.

Also, the heavier the lipo, the more power the motors use to carry the weight of the lipo. You can put a lipo on the copter that is so heavy it REDUCES flight time because the power draw to lift it is so high. A 1000 should give you 8-12 minutes of flight on that copter. A 2200 will give you 15-18 minutes with that copter. The difference in flight time isn't that great.

But when you crash, a 1000 will cause MUCH less damage. The 1000 in a crash means a rotor and some zip ties. The 2200 means a boom, some standoffs, all the rotors, maybe a motor. If you don't have spares, you wait for shipping.

Flying a heavy copter isn't much fun and is harder to learn. No one learns to drive on a big heavy 18 wheeled truck. You learn to drive in something light. The 2200 on this frame is the equivalent of a large trailer. Knock it down to 1000mAh or 1300mAh and learn in a more forgiving environment.

Go with 35C for the best performance.

You will have MUCH more fun.
 
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OPO

New member
Thanks for the reply, the lipo was just a guess buy since I tried researching online but didn't find that much(I must have been searching wrong).

Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into getting the lipo you told me to get. But the lipo I got will work right?(I want to make sure everything works before I buy another lipo).

Also, the motors and ESC were the main reason why I got this kit since I have no clue on finding the right ones. I could easily upgrade the motors and ESC later so I just want to see if I can get it all working and after that I can start upgrade it.

Thanks again for your reply! :)
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Pretty much everything Cranial said with a few tweaks/additions - those being:

I also have two multis with 1806 motors. One very similar to this (an emax frame/motors/12a esc's) which I use for FPV and one that's a minimal acrobatic X frame. I wouldn't say either is underpowered - but I run 6045 props. I wouldn't recommend running 6045 props on 1806 motors to a beginner though unless you like replacing motors. 5030 props will fly...but poorly. Ok for first test flights after basic build up but before you put on any FPV gear. Beyond that step up to at least the 5040's. These motors don't really perform very well until swinging 6" props in my opinion but you do have to watch them. Fully loaded with FPV gear you'll probably be much happier with a frame that could swing 6" props and go with the 6030HQ props, though the 5045's are similar but not quite as good with the extra weight.

Unless you're looking for all out blistering speed the 1806's are a valid option. Though the various 1806 motors themselves vary. Those in your link look like emax motors which I like better than the chunkier DYS style 1806 motors. The emax style don't seem as robust - but have handled some major crashes just fine for me on my bigger heavier FPV setup and still run very smooth. The DYS style on the other hand I've found to make funky noises, be considerably heavier, and to have crazy wild vibrations at certain RPM's - and that's new out of the box. On the test stand the DYS can outperform the emax but in actual use I'm prefering the emax. I should swap the motors between frames to give them a better comparison...just kind of a pain since they're all soldered in place with leads custom length to the quad they're in. I would like to see how the emax do on the KISS esc's and how the DYS do on the emax esc's. I had a heck of a time getting the DYS to run well until I switched to the KISS esc's.

After a few months of flying my friends Warp and then him having been flying it at school a few additional months - neither of us feel like we have the skills to really take advantage of the 2204 motors and 6045 props on his warp. We love to fly it like that and it's not overpowered for us. We just haven't reached a point where the 1806 feels like it's limiting us. The 2204 lets us push ourselves harder - but at our skill level the benefits are minimal.

Bottom line - I'd say for a first build 1806 motors are a good choice. They're lighter and cheaper than 2204's - basically all the arguments Cranial made for smaller battery packs (which I fully back, I've thought about putting one of my 2200's on my 250 - but only for a moment and then it seems so ridiculous I just start to laugh. Way too big for a 250 frame.) But - a frame that limits you to 5" props isn't a good choice.

I would say 35C minimum on the battery, I have some 1300 30C's I use and they sag hard even with 1806's. I wouldn't recommend the HK nano-techs right now though, I've had about a 50% attrition rate on them within just a few weeks of gentle use and even those that don't die quick they're going out of balance horribly. (Same experience with 2200 and 340 sized NT packs.) I want to pick up some 1000's still for the lighter weight, they're just never in stock when I have funds available.

Two things Cranial didn't mention that I'd point out:

ESC's and FC.

No clue on those ESC's in that kit. They could be decent they could be horrible. They may be mediocre but flashable. They look like they're probably BS12a clones - even actual BS12a's have given me issues. (I love my bs20's but I swing 8" props at 1400kv with them not 6" props at 2300kv) At this point with a mystery blackout clone frame that limits you to 5" props (quality can vary WILDLY on these Chinese clones), props that look like gemfans so really aren't good for much more than putting on to take photos and show it assembled, and mystery ESC's I'm thinking it's not the greatest option out there. It's not really a rip-off for $100...and you'd have to shop carefully to do any better on price. But I don't think it would result in a very satisfying and rewarding first build. What really pushes me over that edge though is:

CC3D, OpenPilot has a lot of potential...but the dev community is a mess and their hardware is lagging at this point. I've heard of a few people who got it running well on 250's...but not many. You could run cleanflight or Tau on it - but neither is really an optimal choice due to the harware and adds a lot of work for a first build.

So with a not very plug and play FC, mystery ESC's, mystery Frame limited to 5" props, my alarm bells are going off that this would be potentially ok for a 2nd or 3rd build once you know what you're doing and are willing to put in extra effort to overcome some deficiencies in the package. I've been doing a lot of pricing on 250 parts the past few weeks helping my co-worker find parts to rebuild my old acro frame. Are you US based or somewhere else, I assume you're ok with overseas purchasing/risks/shipping since you found parts on alibaba.

Good ESC's will make a world of difference on a 250. Bad ESC's will make a great 250 unflyable good ESC's will make it flyable but annoying, great ESC's will put a smile on your face and let you fly instead of fiddle.

I would suggest an acroNaze32 or compatible unless you want mag/baro/GPS in which case I'd say look towards Sparky/Quanton/Brain, or APM/PixHawk - but be prepared for a new level of complexity doing so. On an FPV rig if you're building for speed/racing then the acroNaze32 would be fine. If you're going for more of a camera rig and want to park a camera on an aerial tripod, or follow a moving subject, and are more interested in slow fluid motion than max speed - I'd go for a full featured board, and personally I'd lean towards one of the Tau boards - probably the Brain. That's probably not an option for your build though as the Brain is $40 more by itself than the full package you're looking at ;)

I just priced out on freebirdrc.com a similar setup:
QAV250 CF frame (I don't think it's a real QAV at that price...but probably a vouched for decent quality clone, doesn't say if it will handle 6" props but they don't sell any 5" props and there are aftermarket QAV arms that will fit 6".)
Emax MT1806 motors
Their simonk ESC's - These are the one item here I don't know if I would suggest or not...but ESC choices are a whole thread all by themselves if you get me started, I'm knee deep in some experiments there.
Their acro Naze clone
5 sets of FC props (FC props are pretty good, they break at the root fairly easily but give good performance and are decently balanced out of the bag. HQ props are better they don't break as easily and are better balanced out of the bag than my old balancer could usually do itself.

Total was $161.10

Now you could replace those $11 ESC's with some some emax ESC's from banggood ($8.61 each with free shipping from the US, cheaper shipping from China, when you buy more than 3.) The emax ESC's need some stick programming done but it only takes a few minutes and Twitchity posted a video of how to do it. I've been very happy with the performance of the stock emax ESC's and they can probably do better yet with some changes that are coming to the firmware they run. You could probably also get a better deal on props by just biting the bullet and buying a big box from himodel - to make their shipping worth it you pretty much have to buy a LOT of props. But on the upside once you have a big box of props you don't mind breaking them pushing your skills as much ;)

Shopping around you could probably also find a better deal on a frame, and a better deal on the motors. But I was trying to do a quick single source comparison.

The setup from freebird I'd feel a lot better recommending than the one from alibaba. The big question from freebird is will their QAV frame take 6" props.

I'd say adding an extra $50-$60 on your package budget should make it possible to get a higher performance less troublesome setup that will make a first build far more rewarding.
 

OPO

New member
Thanks for your reply, that was a nice read.

I am from Europe and I order stuff from sites like that all the time so I don't feel like there is any risk.

I have already placed the order(Yeah, I am stupid when it comes to these things).

So if I understand your post clearly, the motors are okayish for a first build, the lipo should be smaller since it's huge and heavy, and I should get a different kind of ESC since there are some odd brand and I should get a different flight controller since this one has it's limitations and are not easy for a first time build?

So I could get 4 of these? And the programmer card?

Should I just get a different flightcontroller or just stick with this untill I feel like it's limiting me?

Thanks a lot for your time to type out that nice of a post!
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
The limiting factor of 5" rotors is a PITA and justifies a different frame. Yes, you can put together something better for less money.

No, you don't have to be at jhitesma's level to do it, but yes, it will take research and you have a steep learning curve.

However, yes, your kit will work and that 2200 will power it.

Crash softly. :)
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
With it on it's way I'd say build it as is and then look into upgrades. A smaller higher C battery would be pretty important though even with those parts.

I wouldn't stress the ESC's. Once you get them you could post photos of them and see if someone can identify them to determine what firmware they may be able to handle. Unless they give you trouble on the high KV motors I wouldn't order replacements just yet. If you do get the emax ESC's the programming card would only work with their modified stock firmware and for best performance you'd want to run stock blheli instead so I'd get a toolstick instead of the emax programmer.

The FC you can use...but I would strongly suggest looking into what it takes to run Tau or Cleanflight instead of open pilot. I believe Tau will be the easiest as the GCS GUI should be able to update it to Tau using the existing OP bootloader, and the OP software should be able to return it to OP easily as well. It just won't be able to do things like GPS modes due to the limited memory on the CC3D board. Cleanflight also has a version that can run on the CC3D I believe but I'm not sure how well maintained that branch is and believe that flashing it is a bit more involved as it requires changing to a different bootloader with some special software tools.

So I'd say build it as is, but get some better HQ 5045 props for it and a smaller 1000-1300ma 3s 35C battery.
 

OPO

New member
Thank you both for your suggestions, I should have researched more before buying the kit but I think I can make it work and tweak it with your suggestions.

I will be getting this lipo:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/redz...s-1p-for-55-and-64-370-level/32249855275.html

@jhitesma, for some odd reason I cannot find the FC props only 2 stores that are from Canada and they don't ship to Europe, where do you buy yours? Or do you have another prop I should look at? And the ESC that is provided with the kit is a 12A Simonk ESC(Atleast it says so on the seller page).

Many thanks to the both of you.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Simon K on the ESC is the firmware not the brand. The brand tells us the hardware.

You're a beginner. You won't need to consider performance options other than weight for a while.

The 1000mAh lipo makes the whole kit work just fine.

You have a hard limit on the amount of power you have available with this build and upgrades will be limited, however, I suspect you are about to build a copter that will go faster than you can comfortably controll it for at least 6 months. Limited upgrades and weight restrictions mean this copter shouldn't ever carry a $400 GoPro. It can carry a $60 Mobius. See this as the advantage it is. The copter you are building should be a ton of fun to fly. It will do flips and rolls and spins and it will challenge you.

If you fly your own stuff you are going to learn in a year stuff it took the Wright brothers all thier lives to perfect.

Welcome to flying your own build.


FC props are sometimes hard to find. Gemfans from Hobby King kinda suk but are cheap and will fly. HQ props are awesome and you will feel the difference if you can afford them. Forget carbon fiber until you have more experience. They are expensive and can remove fingers if you do something stupid.

You are going to break props. Buy AT LEAST 5 spare pairs. Let that number guide you by your budget.

Also, stock extra zip ties out the wazoo.


If you post your build here on Flite Test in a thread with pictures. In this way, everyone learns from your journey and you don't have to make the trip by yourself. :)
 

OPO

New member
Considering this whole quad is like 150 euro ish I wouldn't trust it with a GoPro haha, it's just a next step for me in this hobby since I owned a RTF quad before but it was not that great.

I will order some cheap props first since I will be crashing it quite a lot, would be a shame if I lost $10 props everytime it crashes. Once I get better I will be buying some HQ props.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions, I made this thread thinking no one would reply but you two really helped me out. <3
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
himodel.com is the best place I know of to get props, but you have to order a lot to make shipping from China worthwhile. The last batch I got I split the order with one or two other guys on here who actually put the order together.

They don't have much in 5" props though it looks like: http://www.himodel.com/sort.php?sub1=E2&page=4

The site is hard to find specific props on, just look for the ones that start with FC in the part number.
 

Balu

Lurker
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
I've just sorted by "Top 10 Sellers" since most of us use similar props anyway :)

Nice site, but I wonder if I'll have to order that many props. Why "FC"?
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I've just sorted by "Top 10 Sellers" since most of us use similar props anyway :)

Nice site, but I wonder if I'll have to order that many props. Why "FC"?

Depends on how aggressively you fly ;)

I don't see the smaller FC's on the 10 ten list, just some of their 8" props.

"FC" is the brand, their part numbers all start with FC. It's a little confusing as HQ props also make a "FC" line of "Fiber Composite" but himodel doesn't carry them. Just confusing when discussing them since there are two manufacturers with "FC" props.