Ares Decathlon 350- is SAFE being stolen?

[joecook0723]

The new Firelands Ares Decathlon 350 Park Flier Trainer. It's beautiful, and around the price of the Hobbyzone Super Cub S. But, Ares wanted a better flight training system. And it's called Natural Flight Progression Technology. Now for their description of how NFP Tech works. From the Ares Decathlon 350 item page: "The Natural Flight Progression technology in the Decathlon is controlled from a 3-position switch on the transmitter that allows you to select one of either, Beginner, Intermediate, or Unassisted Mode." I thought very suspicious... this is just Ares reverse engineering SAFE Tech by Horizon. But, no "Oh crap!" switch. But I would like this NFP on a Micro from Ares. Please vote on the poll whether you think NFP tech would make you more attracted to Ares's products.

 

[makattack]

I think this isn't really new nor a rip-off. Horizon Hobby's great innovation was the panic button integrated in a flight controller. These stabilized and angle limited flight controllers aren't really new and wasn't a first for their SAFE stuff. It just used to be that you rarely used these for beginner aircraft because they were so much more expensive. I think we can thank the popularity of the opensource flight controllers like KK2, MultiWii, Naze, Sparky, APM, etc along with the popularity of the proprietary systems from Horizon, Hobbico, Eagle Tree, etc. for making them accessible.

When I built a APM powered Versa wing, I realized it had a super sophisticated "SAFE" mode that included a GPS enabled geofence that will result in the plane flying back to a designated rallypoint if you break it, minimum and maximum altitude settings, minimum and maximum airspeed settings and of course, the limits for pitch and roll.

I learned to fly on a Delta Ray with SAFE... but I think I could have learned on my APM equipped Versa -- but it would have cost a bit more to build vs buying the Delta Ray -- and someone else would have had to build and configure the software for me!

 

[RichB]

My thoughts exactly. When I heard of "SAFE" i said "Oh look, somebody user-friendlied an APM." SAFE isn't anything unique or special. Even the "oh crap" switch can be easily replicated with APM, and likely other flight controllers.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if someone discovered that SAFE was APM code.

 

[Maingear]

I think the vapor and ember2 are the best trainers out there because of their performance. They are stable and fight is not faster than the untrained thought process of a beginner. The only challenge is waiting for calm days or finding an indoor place to fly. I would be cool I'd embassy sweets had a vapor club meet where one could fly inside 12 story buildings.

Im happy they are getting lighter and cheaper, untill they miniaturized and come standard in all receivers sp they are PNF, I'll save my money. Retun to home (RTH) is what I want so without GPS, I'll stick to what I have. JR, Futaba, Spektrum rivalry has been good for the hobby and will soon bring standard features we dream of now.

 

[joecook0723]

I think this isn't really new nor a rip-off. Horizon Hobby's great innovation was the panic button integrated in a flight controller. These stabilized and angle limited flight controllers aren't really new and wasn't a first for their SAFE stuff. It just used to be that you rarely used these for beginner aircraft because they were so much more expensive. I think we can thank the popularity of the opensource flight controllers like KK2, MultiWii, Naze, Sparky, APM, etc along with the popularity of the proprietary systems from Horizon, Hobbico, Eagle Tree, etc. for making them accessible.

When I built a APM powered Versa wing, I realized it had a super sophisticated "SAFE" mode that included a GPS enabled geofence that will result in the plane flying back to a designated rallypoint if you break it, minimum and maximum altitude settings, minimum and maximum airspeed settings and of course, the limits for pitch and roll.

I learned to fly on a Delta Ray with SAFE... but I think I could have learned on my APM equipped Versa -- but it would have cost a bit more to build vs buying the Delta Ray -- and someone else would have had to build and configure the software for me!

Horizon to Ares
Pico QX/ Faze to Ethos PQ
Nano QX to Ethos QX75
QX180 to SpectreX
Mini Vapor to Stick 75
Champ to Trainer 100
UMX Carbon Cub SS to Taylorcraft 130
Super Cub S to Decathlon 350
Apprentice Series to Gamma 370 Series
P-51D Mustang 280 to P-51D Mustang 350
Chronos Series to mCX Series

 

[huskerfreak]

First full disclosure I work for Firelands Group. They sell the brands Helion, Ares, Ares Advantage and Radient

Horizon to Ares
Pico QX/ Faze to Ethos PQ made in the same factory. Ours was released over a month prior to the faze
Nano QX to Ethos QX75 The qx75 came out nearly a year ahead of the nano qx we sold thousands. the biggest difference is that the nano qx is 6 axis and the qx75 was 3. We still have a small amount of these on HTU shelves but have been replaced with the Spectre X which is 6 axis has an air frame that reminds you of a miniature dji
QX180 to SpectreX actually the Ethos 130 is the same exact air size air frame and is a better comparison sells for $99 and offers 5 different attachments camera, bubble make (kids and dogs goes nuts over this) rocket launcher, squirt gun and winch
Mini Vapor to Stick 75 the stick 75 has only rudder control no elevator and the air frame is not glued together and easy to repair the rudder is powered magnetic style
Champ to Trainer 100 I would like to say the Taylorcraft 130 is a better comparison this fully upgradeable to brushless four channel all plug and play. very easy to work on as parts are held with magnets
UMX Carbon Cub SS to Taylorcraft 130
Super Cub S to Decathlon 350 The Gamma is a better comparison as well. To the super cub the gamma is available in pro four channel version as well. The brushed Gamma is fully up gradable to brushless and four channel as well all plug and play makes evolving as a pilot a snap. The Gamma is unbelievable easy fly plane for a beginner
Apprentice Series to Gamma 370 Series
P-51D Mustang 280 to P-51D Mustang 350 this is a fair comparison. there is nearly dozen p-51 with different paint schemes on the market
Chronos Series to mCX Series coaxial are sold in every shopping mall for over 6 years. I remember the $20 piece of crap Venom micro coaxial that came out years

First I am not here to sell you on the product that Ares makes. I would like to say if the Flite Test would like to review any our product it would be an honor for them to do so. I would be able to make arrangements to have that happen possibly.

I guess what I am here to say is all SAFE is, is Horizon having a good marketing department and trademarking a acronym. If you fly a plane with SAFE and if you were to fly Decathlon with what we call Aegis they have many differences. As far as the oh crap switch the Decathlon actually has that as well. If you watch the promotional video it shows that if you have the Aegis turned off and find yourself in trouble you pull the NFP switch all the way back to turn the Aegis back on and the aircraft will go back upright level flight. One other the option is the electronic trimming function that the Decathlon has.

One thing that Ares is lacking and have been working very hard on is the bind and fly option that Horizon offer. Many people I don't realize how huge of an innovation this is and was in our industry. I would put in in the top three of biggest in rc. On the Decathlon along with some other projects set to release next year you have the option of using a satellite receivers from Spektrum or Futaba (adapters are BO still) they plug right in and assign the channels where you want on your radio. I personally use my DX6

Now the following is my personal opinion and not one of Ares. I do not understand the point of having SAFE or what we call Aegis technology in brushed 3 channel planes. These planes fly so slow and docile and don't need it.

The power plant that is in the Decathlon and P-51 is the same. I will also let you know that I am a huge Flite Test fan, I have about 10 of the speed build kits. The power plants in these are prefect for nearly all the speed build kits that Flite Test sells along with the Ares servo. One of the perks working for Ares is, I have a lot of extra electronics laying around making the Flite Test planes even more economical. If I wasn't so lazy I could really build a plane for $1 as I get the electronics for free lol. One last note I just got my email the tri-copter from David is making its way from Sweden!

In the comparison list you have above you could enter a Hobbico product in everyone of those slots as well as nearly half dozen other brands.

Finally if Josh and his crew that have reviewed the Horizon planes with SAFE and would like to give the Decathlon a try let me know and I think I can make that happen. I feel you guys would be pleasantly surprised at what Ares has to offer.

But in this long winded post nobody stole anything. It is rc manufactures like Firelands, Horizon and Hobbico and dozen more using the technology that hackers have been using for years.

 

[Dynascrew]

Rooting for Ares and the Decathelon

I own almost all of the planes mentioned, Ares and Hobbyzone, including the Sport Cub S with SAFE. I am decent on 3ch and just getting the hang of ailerons. HUGE KUDOS to the SAFE CUB. The larger Decathelon would make a great park size step up. I also own an Eflight SAFE rx ($120!) for other planes I have that have been waiting for my fingers to catch up.

Decathlon questions,
What the heck is the 700 mAH 1 s for?
So, I can use any rx with the rxr version and still have NPF?
Parts list doesn't sell the Ageis NFP unit separately?


1/ The Ares Trainer 100 can fly circles (and loops) around the HZ Champ.
2/ PT 17 (600-800 mm?) with SAFE please, please, please. Parksize non-scale belly lander too.
3/ Hobby Express Micro Stik out flys the Ember 2 Big Time, another Ares product, same Tx.
4. Europe gets some very cool Ares that the US dosen't get
5/ Now if Firelands only had a serious distributor...so sad.
6/ Glad I didn't buy the Taylorcraft... Decathelon next?
7/ SAFE and NFP will save many, many tons of Styrofoam from the landfills.
8/ FLAPS, sooooo sexy.

Jim D.

Horizon to Ares
Pico QX/ Faze to Ethos PQ
Nano QX to Ethos QX75
QX180 to SpectreX
Mini Vapor to Stick 75
Champ to Trainer 100
UMX Carbon Cub SS to Taylorcraft 130
Super Cub S to Decathlon 350
Apprentice Series to Gamma 370 Series
P-51D Mustang 280 to P-51D Mustang 350
Chronos Series to mCX Series

 

[huskerfreak]

I own almost all of the planes mentioned, Ares and Hobbyzone, including the Sport Cub S with SAFE. I am decent on 3ch and just getting the hang of ailerons. HUGE KUDOS to the SAFE CUB. The larger Decathelon would make a great park size step up. I also own an Eflight SAFE rx ($120!) for other planes I have that have been waiting for my fingers to catch up.

Decathlon questions,
What the heck is the 700 mAH 1 s for?
So, I can use any rx with the rxr version and still have NPF?
Parts list doesn't sell the Ageis NFP unit separately?


1/ The Ares Trainer 100 can fly circles (and loops) around the HZ Champ.
2/ PT 17 (600-800 mm?) with SAFE please, please, please. Parksize non-scale belly lander too.
3/ Hobby Express Micro Stik out flys the Ember 2 Big Time, another Ares product, same Tx.
4. Europe gets some very cool Ares that the US dosen't get
5/ Now if Firelands only had a serious distributor...so sad.
6/ Glad I didn't buy the Taylorcraft... Decathelon next?
7/ SAFE and NFP will save many, many tons of Styrofoam from the landfills.
8/ FLAPS, sooooo sexy.

Jim D.

Not sure what planes from Ares that are in Europe that we don't have here in the states. Also not sure where you got the 700mah 1s from. The plane comes with a 3s 600mah battery. Right now the ready for receiver version can use a Spektrum radio satellite receiver or a Futaba once that adapters are instock. You need a radio that has the three position switch. I use the new DX6 on mine. Our service guy uses the stock radio with good results. Ageis is not sold separately yet.

 

[huskerfreak]

I see where you got the 700 1s from. I will have them fix that on the website

 

[Dynascrew]

700 mah 1s, 2 places on Ares site, no explanation.

Not sure what planes from Ares that are in Europe that we don't have here in the states. Also not sure where you got the 700mah 1s from. The plane comes with a 3s 600mah battery. Right now the ready for receiver version can use a Spektrum radio satellite receiver or a Futaba once that adapters are instock. You need a radio that has the three position switch. I use the new DX6 on mine. Our service guy uses the stock radio with good results. Ageis is not sold separately yet.

No replacement aegis unit could well be a deal killer. Not crazy about buying a plane with a brain if I can't replace a failed unit. Special plane not so special after that.

From specs page,

Wingspan: 29.25 in. (743mm)
Wing Chord: 5.25 in. (133.3mm)
Wing Area: 152 sq. in.
Length: 22.75 in (578mm)
Flying Weight: 12.6 oz. (357 grams)
Battery: 3S 600mAh w/JST
Battery: 700mAh 1S 3.7V 15C LiPo............???????
Motor: Brushless 1800Kv
ESC: 15A Brushless
Transmitter: 6‐channel 2.4GHz

and...


Ready-to-fly (RTF)

Decathlon 350 Airframe
2.4GHz 6-channel transmitter
6-Ch Park Flyer Receiver (installed)
Aegis NFP Control Board (installed)
350 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 1400Kv (installed)
15-Amp BL ESC (installed)



(4) 9-Gram Sub-Micro Servos (installed)
700mAh 1S 3.7V 15C LiPo Battery..........................................................????
3S 11.1V LiPo, 0.5 mA DC Balancing Charger
100-120V AC to 13V DC Adapter, 0.5A Power Supply
AA transmitter batteries for transmitter


Q/ Does satellite port talk to Ageis unit?
Q/ would a Lemon rx with satellite work?
http://www.lemon-rx.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=72&product_id=108

Ares abroad, Spitfire and more. Check Ares and eRc.

http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co....ircraft - RTF R/C&subcatname=RTF - eRC planes

I'll hold off until I know if Aegis will be supported with parts. HT not famous for product support as it is. I still root for Ares / Firelands. Glad to hear more new planes in the works.

 

[huskerfreak]

No replacement aegis unit could well be a deal killer. Not crazy about buying a plane with a brain if I can't replace a failed unit. Special plane not so special after that.

From specs page,

Wingspan: 29.25 in. (743mm)
Wing Chord: 5.25 in. (133.3mm)
Wing Area: 152 sq. in.
Length: 22.75 in (578mm)
Flying Weight: 12.6 oz. (357 grams)
Battery: 3S 600mAh w/JST
Battery: 700mAh 1S 3.7V 15C LiPo............???????
Motor: Brushless 1800Kv
ESC: 15A Brushless
Transmitter: 6‐channel 2.4GHz

and...


Ready-to-fly (RTF)

Decathlon 350 Airframe
2.4GHz 6-channel transmitter
6-Ch Park Flyer Receiver (installed)
Aegis NFP Control Board (installed)
350 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 1400Kv (installed)
15-Amp BL ESC (installed)



(4) 9-Gram Sub-Micro Servos (installed)
700mAh 1S 3.7V 15C LiPo Battery..........................................................????
3S 11.1V LiPo, 0.5 mA DC Balancing Charger
100-120V AC to 13V DC Adapter, 0.5A Power Supply
AA transmitter batteries for transmitter


Q/ Does satellite port talk to Ageis unit?
Q/ would a Lemon rx with satellite work?
http://www.lemon-rx.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=72&product_id=108

Ares abroad, Spitfire and more. Check Ares and eRc.

http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co....ircraft - RTF R/C&subcatname=RTF - eRC planes

I'll hold off until I know if Aegis will be supported with parts. HT not famous for product support as it is. I still root for Ares / Firelands. Glad to hear more new planes in the works.

Yeah there is a typo on the website. I will see that it gets fixed when I get back to the office on Monday. As far as Aegis replacement will be supported if there is an issue. I thought you were asking more like if you can buy the system to install yourself into other planes. But we will support any replacement that may be needed.

As far as the lemon receiver goes.... I can't confirm that it will work as I have not or anyone at Ares personally try but seeing that it is a Spektrum clone I wouldn't see why not. The only thing you need is the satellite there is a port that you plug it into. I will take a pic of mine when I get back to the office as well. Plane is there right now.

 

[joecook0723]

Yeah there is a typo on the website. I will see that it gets fixed when I get back to the office on Monday. As far as Aegis replacement will be supported if there is an issue. I thought you were asking more like if you can buy the system to install yourself into other planes. But we will support any replacement that may be needed.

As far as the lemon receiver goes.... I can't confirm that it will work as I have not or anyone at Ares personally try but seeing that it is a Spektrum clone I wouldn't see why not. The only thing you need is the satellite there is a port that you plug it into. I will take a pic of mine when I get back to the office as well. Plane is there right now.

Anyways I think the Declathon 350 is still nice.
Will the servo plugs fit the holes in a Spektrum AR400?
Thanks for giving me a comparison.

 

[Capt_Beavis]

Now the following is my personal opinion and not one of Ares. I do not understand the point of having SAFE or what we call Aegis technology in brushed 3 channel planes. These planes fly so slow and docile and don't need it.

I destroyed my Champ in just a few flights. It would go into nose dives I couldn't recover from and going neutral didn't help. It may have been trimmed improperly but I could never get it flying level to trim it right. the tail snapped completely off and the nose busted up horribly. It was actually too much Gorilla Glue that killed but SAFE would have been worth an extra $30 or so for me. This thing about planes like the Champ being too light to destroy is BS. They don't take nose dives from 30 feet.

 

[huskerfreak]

Anyways I think the Declathon 350 is still nice.
Will the servo plugs fit the holes in a Spektrum AR400?
Thanks for giving me a comparison.

The only way that you can use your Spektrum radio is with a satellite receiver. You can't use the AR400

 

[huskerfreak]

I destroyed my Champ in just a few flights. It would go into nose dives I couldn't recover from and going neutral didn't help. It may have been trimmed improperly but I could never get it flying level to trim it right. the tail snapped completely off and the nose busted up horribly. It was actually too much Gorilla Glue that killed but SAFE would have been worth an extra $30 or so for me. This thing about planes like the Champ being too light to destroy is BS. They don't take nose dives from 30 feet.

The thing is you said it yourself the plane may not have been trimmed correctly. Not technology will save you if you don't set it up correctly. Ares has there take on the Champ which would be the Taylorcraft 130. What I like about this plane is that it is held together with magnets. One issue we had with the first run that received last year was the props were install incorrectly from the vendor and were cracked. While flying the prop would fly off. We would get service calls all the time saying the prop fell off and the plane crashed and was destroyed. Well this is more user error then plane. I was flying one at a tech training class in Lake Geneva WI in front of about 25 people my prop came off. At first I was embarrassed as the big boss was standing next to me and wanted to make sure that everything worked good for demonstration then fear as from all the calls we received. Guess what the plane became mini powered glider and was able to land it at my feet. The first thing I said was to the group as you can see the plane does not drop like a rock when losing your prop or power to the motor.

Sorry for the long story but my point is that majority of plane crashes and destruction is on the pilot and not the plane. There is another thread going about people wreaking there Delta Ray that has safe.

 

[hifinsword]

I have a question about the system that I'm not completely sure about. If you fly without the NPS engaged in either beginner or intermediate modes, are there stabilization gyros at work, or is the stab completely OFF?

I went to Page 19 of the manual and found this: "When you are comfortable with Intermediate mode you are ready to move on to Unassisted mode where all the NFP technology is turned off. In this mode the stabilization and “tail-lock” functions are inactive."

So it appears the answer is NO STAB available when in Unassisted mode. With SAFE I beleive in the Advanced mode, a 3-axis system (AS3X) is still engaged for stability. But the restricted limits for all 3 control surfaces are removed in the Advanced mode of the SAFE system. Just wondering if the servos still flutter to correct for wind in the Unassisted mode?
Don

 

[Capt_Beavis]

It may have been out of trim, I will never know. But SAFE will save you from a horribly trimmed plane. Beginner and Panic mode won't let the plane dive harshly to the ground I know this from experience with the Sport Cub S. The plane would fly nice and level in beginner mode but switching out of that mode lead to a steep dive when the elevator wasn't trimmed correctly. Switching back leveled the plane out and made for a easy landing. The point of SAFE is to level out the plane.

The thing is you said it yourself the plane may not have been trimmed correctly. Not technology will save you if you don't set it up correctly.