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Suggestion Box - Flite Test Product Threads

#1
This is not a suggestion for the show, but a suggestion for the forum.

Please create a line item in the forum, probably in the “Look here First!” section called “Suggestion Box”. Flite Test is much more than a “show” and more than a on line hobby store. It is a growing community and it’s time to get organized so the members of that community can better help one another.

As a first “Suggestion” let me offer the following….

Please create a topic in the forum called “Flite Test Products” containing sticky threads for each of the products you sell on your web site. This would be the place where the Flite Test Community can talk about the products, ask questions, post experiences, get recommendations for related products (What battery should I buy?, will this work with my DX9?, etc.) It would also be a way to the FT team to get focused feedback on how their products are being experienced by the community and ultimately improve their product line.

Currently I have several FT products that I would like to talk about but the forum is not organized in a way that I can reach the portion of the FT community that would care, or possibly know the answers to my questions.
 

PsyBorg

Fly Angry
Mentor
#2
Problem with one thread per product is the shear amount of people using this stuff. That thread would be 100's of k posts in a very short time. Then to top it off you would have to search the thread for the specific issue you want answers for. Then to top it all off far to many people do not even bother searching for answers they start a new thread anyways.

Myself and other mentors here answer the same questions several times a week sometimes its very frustrating and I see the same question asked 4 ways on the same "New thread" search I do every few minutes when I am around because no one bothers to look for what they need.

There are enough people on here at all hours that it is rare any question goes unanswered let alone unresponded to for more then a few hours.

That all being said they kind of do what you are asking for already with the build threads and build videos they do for each product. Most of the support for them comes from the community more so then FT crew as they are too busy running the company, the store, and producing content as well as product design. This is why this community is so awesome when compared to ANY other community out there.

As far as feed back they do keep an eye in here on how their products are doing and will step in to address any major or recurring issues. Finally if you can not get what you need from here they all have accounts you can reach them at but as you imagine fast response times with all that they do will not be the greatest when trying direct contact route.
 

JimCR120

Site Moderator
#3
I'm not sure what you're after Randy.

If we used one of the threads already in use like the Gremlin for example. Other than being a sticky, what are you looking for that would be different? I see threads getting plenty of traffic and even if, or I should probably say when, a separate thread is initiated we can always redirect them to where the information is concentrated.
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#4
I think it's also worth thinking about Flite Test's mission and goals. They aren't in business to sell tons of product, take over the market place, and dominate the industry. They exist to create community, foster learning, and help people connect and engage with each other - and the way they have helped the forum grow supports that goal. I don't see them ever going down a path of providing dedicated product support through the forum when fostering the community engagement is more aligned to their mission.

An example of the success of this is in the first three people who responded to your post here. We all live in separate states, met online via the forums here and became fast friends, camped out together at Flite Fest East, and are currently plotting to take over the world... er.. maybe I shouldn't have said that part out loud. :p

Of course this is all my interpretation of how the FT mission is reflected in the forums and their product support choices. Stephan might drop by this thread and set me straight :)
 
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#5
I am honestly surprised by the negative response to this suggestion.

I agree, the FT community is the first and often best place to ask questions. I am only trying to facilitate that by organizing it in a way where people can find the best place to ask their questions, or find the answers.

Speaking as a FT customer, I can ask my questions under any number of topic areas, none of them obviously the right place. I can start my own thread and I might reach the right people. I can try to use the search capability, but frankly I have never found any search capability in any forum to be very helpful, even when I know a particular post has the information I want.

People will always ask the same questions over and over again. That is the nature of the beast. People often don’t want to read every post in a long thread to possibly find something related to their question. I don’t blame them. Being able to point them to post #74 in the same thread is far more efficient than typing the same answer over and over again in multiple threads.

Relatively speaking, the FT forums aren’t that active, not compared to RCG for example. The threads for all time are usually a few thousand or less, and the replies are often in the single or double digits. Ultimately what I am suggesting would not change the posts, only organize them in a logical way. It might encourage a few more posts as people would be more comfortable knowing they are posting in the right place. It might result in a few less posts as people find the answers they want without posting.

I won’t speak for FT or their aspirations as a business, but clearly they are, among other things, an on line hobby shop and that is what pays the bills. I think they want to be the best they can be in every respect, and that includes providing the best customer experience. My suggestion intends to improve their customer experience with minimal impact on their direct resources by more efficiently utilizing the loyal FT community. If the various store pages had links to these threads I would click them eagerly, both when considering a purchase, and to get and receive feedback once I was using the product.

This seems like such a “no brainer” to me. I am amazed by the negative response.
 

TexMechsRobot

Posted a thousand or more times
#6
I would prefer to see this idea implemented in the way that Amazon does. You ask your question directly on the product's purchase page and not in a separate forum.
 

nhk750

Aviation Enthusiast
#7
I second that, Amazon has a great system for reviews on products. Someday, when AI gets more advanced, it would be nice to have product pages that will search the web for related threads and have links to click on. There is a vast amount of great information on this forum for products that is difficult to find even using search engines. It always frustrating to try and find information that is out there, and you know it's there, because Google try's to outsmart you or upsell you with paid search results.
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#8
I agree that having a link between the product page and the forum thread for the build that Sponz always starts up titled *Unofficial* [insert design name here] would be handy. The search function in the forums isn't the best and this would help people who might not even realize the forums are here to support them.
 
#9
I agree that having a link between the product page and the forum thread for the build that Sponz always starts up titled *Unofficial* [insert design name here] would be handy. The search function in the forums isn't the best and this would help people who might not even realize the forums are here to support them.
If there is already a thread for most every product then that would be fine. IMHO it would be a bit nicer if all these threads were under one topic, especially for the FT people who have to administer the system. Also, longer term, I imagine the FT folks would create the new thread at the same time they create a new product page.

I would prefer to see this idea implemented in the way that Amazon does. You ask your question directly on the product's purchase page and not in a separate forum.
My hope is that working within the existing structure would be easier and therefore more likely to happen.

I would also hope to keep the helpful-friendly nature of the forum. I am not saying that the Amazon version isn't as halpful-friendly, I don't know. It's just that a forum is thought of a place to discuss and solve problems, etc. and not just a place to rant about how your product arrived damaged, etc. I would also like to avoid having two separate places for what amounts to the same discussions. In addition to making it more difficult to find the information I am afraid it might lead to one of the two becoming more negative. I do think negative input has value though. I just would not want it to become depressingly negative without the balance of the positive and helpful comments.
 

CrashRecovery

I'm a care bear...Really?
Mentor
#10
Like others have said I think it will be a bit overwhelming based on topics. The thing with asking questions and not having it in the right spot, well that;s an easy fix. Most of that are mentors or Mods keep track of that stuff and if we know where the topic should be we can get it moved easily.
Like said above the Gremlin thread is a perfect example. I started that one after I was at the shop when I saw the beta designs and TJ asked me to spread the word.
A lot of people in the forums have come here because they did not like the feeling they got over at RCG. I for one have never really liked the format and sometime I picked up some attitude toward new pilots asking questions. As for the repeated questions we see, yes it gets frustrating but we now have the ability to mold the new people into respectful smart pilots. What I find the most frustrating about the repeated questions is people either are new to forums and don't know there is a search function for the topics or they just post the question in like three or four areas in hopes of getting answers. I think a simple forum 101 thread would go great for the new person. With that being said if you want to look a certain topic or maybe a question, try the search function. You should be pleasantly surprised with your results of your search.
Maybe I'm missing your end goal here but I hope my thoughts helped.
 
#11
Like others have said I think it will be a bit overwhelming based on topics. The thing with asking questions and not having it in the right spot, well that;s an easy fix. Most of that are mentors or Mods keep track of that stuff and if we know where the topic should be we can get it moved easily.
Like said above the Gremlin thread is a perfect example. I started that one after I was at the shop when I saw the beta designs and TJ asked me to spread the word.
A lot of people in the forums have come here because they did not like the feeling they got over at RCG. I for one have never really liked the format and sometime I picked up some attitude toward new pilots asking questions. As for the repeated questions we see, yes it gets frustrating but we now have the ability to mold the new people into respectful smart pilots. What I find the most frustrating about the repeated questions is people either are new to forums and don't know there is a search function for the topics or they just post the question in like three or four areas in hopes of getting answers. I think a simple forum 101 thread would go great for the new person. With that being said if you want to look a certain topic or maybe a question, try the search function. You should be pleasantly surprised with your results of your search.
Maybe I'm missing your end goal here but I hope my thoughts helped.
I still don't get it. If there was a dedicated thread on the Vortex 150, for example, then you are saying that too many people would use it to talk about too many different Vortex 150 related sub topics at the same time? I think that would be a good thing. At least then you would have some traffic.

As it happens, I would like to talk about the Vortex 150 camera, which has been disappointing due to really poor default tuning and poor dynamic range in general. I did a search on "Vortex 150 Camera" and the only relevant thread I found was the one I started some time ago with zero replies, probably because no one with any interest or answers ever saw it.

My goal is to create active vibrant threads where lots of people with a common interest hang out for a time. That requires that the threads be broad enough to last, and logically organized so people can find them. Being organized by product is just an obvious way to do it. It doesn't need to be the only way that things are organized. People who want to talk about quad racing, or Discus Launch Gliders can have their threads too.

I think there is some denial going on here. The current structure might be working for some, but for many others it isn't working, but they aren't here to say so because they gave up and left already.
 

CrashRecovery

I'm a care bear...Really?
Mentor
#12
Its not that we are saying having a specific product topic area is not needed, really its not what we are saying. What we have seen in the past in the forum is product based topics tend to end up having every question just in one thread. People will post comments, issues and what not in the thread they see as having the most traffic thinking their topic will get seen.
Now with your question regarding the camera you could easily see plenty of traffic in,
http://forum.flitetest.com/forumdisplay.php?109-Electric-Multirotors or
http://forum.flitetest.com/forumdisplay.php?15-FPV

The vortex line of quads really didn't have much love here in the forums. Don't forget about the FT Fan page on Facebook. There is a large number of folks that use that instead of the forums.
If every major product had a topic area I think it could just confuse some people on what an where to post. I think having the generalized areas helps eliminate that issue.
 
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PsyBorg

Fly Angry
Mentor
#13
What is also being missed is that yes this forum is about all things Flite Test BUT.. It is not really part of Flite Test. It is I believe a private forum started by people who like what Flite Test is about. This "Community" has been built with like minded people who wanted a family friendly place where people are respectful and helpful unlike places like RC Groups.

People coming here with FT store issues do not realize this has nothing to do with the store and posting emergency rants about a product or how they feel they were being ignored by support really are not part of this. Yes people here will bend over backwards to help sort things out but that because of who they are not that they are an actual part of Flite Test.

As far as putting information about a product in one place it has proven time and again that structure does not work. I will use my Gremlin thread as an example. With all the iterations and things I have done with mine people still come in and post questions that have been answered and have examples posted. Its not a hidden thread all you have to search is the word Gremlin yet we get new threads daily asking for help.

Its just the nature of the beast that is digital life as well as how people think these days. I want an answer now, I don't want to have to look for it and I want it handed on a silver platter immediately after I show my presence or I will complain about it and say bad things.

Putting ALL the information about a product in one place would be a huge nightmare simply because every day people find new ways to do things, better tech comes out, or after market add ons like the 3d printed stuff everyone makes now becomes available. Things get out dated and keeping out dated information lumped in with new is a massive fail that would cause more problems. Its best to let old threads with old information die off. The information is still there to go back to but its not in a heap with the current good information to have to be sorted thru.

It can be a hassle restating things over and over but at least what is being retold is current information.
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#14
It can be a hassle restating things over and over but at least what is being retold is current information.
I think the even more important benefit of doing this is it helps bind the community together an bring in new people. As a relative noob to RC it's possible to have the answer to someone elses question who is even newer and be able to help out - and that feeling and connection of helping each other is a big deal in my mind.

I know there are a lot of more experienced forum members who, like myself, keep an eye on all the new threads created and make sure nothing stays at 'zero replies' for too long. That's a way I can help make sure people are finding the information they need. But if someone adds a post about motor selection to a 200 long thread about the FT Storch, I'll never see it - I don't have a Storch and wouldn't be subscribed to that thread. Nor will lots of the others in the community. But a new post asking for help with motor selection will catch our attention because it has zero replies at first, and we'll all try to make sure it gets addressed so our new friend can get up in the air.

Yes, this approach does leave valuable content scattered all over, and that drawback is sort of addressed when some of the more popular *Unofficial* design threads go viral and have lots of people chiming in. But not all designs get that level of community excitement and attention.

I do like the idea of finding a way for the *Unofficial* design threads Sponz starts when plans are released to be more prominent - they can get lost a little too easily. Those threads usually keep at least a couple die-hard fans of any given design engaged for a while. But if they end up going stale, people can still end up being frustrated and not finding the info they need.
 
#15
I should probably let this go as it is clear that there are several people who disagree with me, but your concerns about threads becoming too large or confused with too many people talking about different but related topics at the same time just don’t match my experience.

I am a self-appointed mentor of sorts in the RCG area related to VTOL aircraft. I am also an expert on the Open Aero VTOL (OAV) flight controller. (Forgive my hubris, but it’s the truth.) I monitor the OAV thread in RCG and have answered hundreds if not thousands of questions over the years. That thread started in 2013 and has well over 4,000 posts. The first post in that thread is regularly updated by the creator of OAV with the latest firmware, user manuals, etc. People come to that thread to share their OAV related projects and get help with OAV questions. I doubt many people would read the entire thread, but it’s actually fun to scan through looking at the pictures and watching the videos. The thread isn’t a sticky, but it is active enough that it is always near the top of the list. On rare occasions someone gets snippy but that’s just humanity in action, and doesn’t really detract much from the overall value of the thread.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/sho...-with-transitional-mixers-(perfect-for-VTOLs)

So you say that threads like this don’t work, but I say they do. They work really well.
 

JimCR120

Site Moderator
#16
Randy
I apologize for my negativity in my first response. My intent was merely to better understand what you are after. Perhaps you would like to continue this discussion via PM's. I really don't want you coming away from this feeling stifled nor slighted.

So far a couple examples have been expressed that lack what you are after. One was a user response area on the store site under each item. I am familiar with this having seen it elsewhere like Hobby King for example. The other example you mentioned was the Vortex 150 which you had hoped would have had more traffic. I would like to know more about how you would suggest these be different and the outcome you would hope to achieve. Respond where you like. If there is something better to be employed, let's work through the ideas, pros and cons.

Respectfully,
—Jim
 

rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
#17
I should probably let this go as it is clear that there are several people who disagree with me, but your concerns about threads becoming too large or confused with too many people talking about different but related topics at the same time just don’t match my experience.
I hope I'm not coming off as dismissive of you or your ideas - I'm feeling this is a productive discussion that's not only raising good points to think about, but also encouraging those points to be written down and not just 'assumed' as part of how the culture has grown so far.

The first RCG post in that thread is regularly updated by the creator of OAV with the latest firmware, user manuals, etc. People come to that thread to share their OAV related projects and get help with OAV questions. I doubt many people would read the entire thread, but it’s actually fun to scan through looking at the pictures and watching the videos. The thread isn’t a sticky, but it is active enough that it is always near the top of the list. On rare occasions someone gets snippy but that’s just humanity in action, and doesn’t really detract much from the overall value of the thread.

So you say that threads like this don’t work, but I say they do. They work really well.
I'm very glad that there are RCG threads like this that work. My person experience on RCG over the years are from subscribing to and dealing with product threads for a couple ARF's I've picked up at auctions that are essentially abandoned, the very helpful Laine's Planes Cuda thread that is quiet but supportive, and the four or five massive Taranis & FrSky threads in all their horrible nasty antagonistic toxic glory. Yes there are gems in those cesspools, but I lose faith in humanity whenever I hit a bookmark to those threads and I'm not logged in so that my user blocking list is active. Maybe my negative view towards this type of forum approach is too heavily influenced by the dozen or so trolls that piss in that pool and spoil it for everyone.
 
#18
I hope I'm not coming off as dismissive of you or your ideas - I'm feeling this is a productive discussion that's not only raising good points to think about, but also encouraging those points to be written down and not just 'assumed' as part of how the culture has grown so far.



I'm very glad that there are RCG threads like this that work. My person experience on RCG over the years are from subscribing to and dealing with product threads for a couple ARF's I've picked up at auctions that are essentially abandoned, the very helpful Laine's Planes Cuda thread that is quiet but supportive, and the four or five massive Taranis & FrSky threads in all their horrible nasty antagonistic toxic glory. Yes there are gems in those cesspools, but I lose faith in humanity whenever I hit a bookmark to those threads and I'm not logged in so that my user blocking list is active. Maybe my negative view towards this type of forum approach is too heavily influenced by the dozen or so trolls that piss in that pool and spoil it for everyone.
No worries about my feelings. I don’t require that people agree with me. Every post so far has been an honest opinion with no hint of personal attacks. If the discussion is worth having, it should be in the open for everyone to hear and contribute.

A user response area directly on the store site has advantages and disadvantages.
• It is certainly easy to find as it is right there in front of you when you are shopping, but it is less convenient to find if you have to look in both the forum and the store page for relevant information.
• It might somewhat detract from the functionality of the store site as it could become very long.
• It encourages the questions like, “What battery do I need for this?” but discourages the longer more thoughtful posts with pictures and video where people talk about their user experience. Those longer posts are probably more positive so discouraging positivity isn’t good.
• It could be seen as harmful to the seller if people start ranting about how bad the product is, but I think all feedback, both positive and negative, is good feedback if it is honest and not abusive. This could be true for the same information in a separate forum thread except that it is not so “in your face” as you are making your purchasing decision. Either way, moderators can take down anything that is deemed inappropriate.
• It is probably more difficult to implement. A simple link on the store page to a separate thread is almost trivial to implement. Likewise, Starting a sticky thread in the regular forum when a new product hits the store site is probably pretty easy. Implementing a forum like functionality on the store page is probably a significant project.
• Some information on the store page should come direct from FT and not have to be dug out of any forum, regardless of where it is located. This includes the, “If you buy this you will also need this and this.” There is also the closely related, “To use this you will need to download this application into your Android phone, etc.” IMHO it should also include links to all related user manuals and probably the manufacturers web page if FT is not the manufacturer. This kind of information only sells more product, so there is no reason why it should not be there except that it takes time and energy to put it there.

As for my Vortex 150 experience and the lack of response in the forum…. I don’t know if I posted it in a less than ideal location or whether there simply wasn’t anyone out there who knew any answers. I know it’s a very popular quad in the world in general, so presumably lots of people have an experience to share. I don’t know how many of them have been sold through FT or whether the people who bought them were at a level of experience to have an opinion on the camera quality. I know that I got a response from my RCG query within minutes. I also know that the best information came from YouTube where several people showed before and after video as well as their camera settings. I did ultimately make improvements in my personal camera settings and I would share them with the FT community, but at this point I believe my post would rarely be seen, so it isn’t worth my time. If there was a dedicated Vortex 150 thread that was likely to remain active for some time I would be more inclined to make the effort.

As for the outcome I was hoping for from the FT forum post, I had hoped to hear something back. No one owes me anything, so I have no right to be upset. It just felt like I was talking to the wall. All the more so because there was no obvious place to make such a post.
 

JimCR120

Site Moderator
#19
I think this (the underlined portion) is an excellent idea and one I think we can implement mostly at our level.

• It is probably more difficult to implement. A simple link on the store page to a separate thread is almost trivial to implement. Likewise, Starting a sticky thread in the regular forum when a new product hits the store site is probably pretty easy. Implementing a forum like functionality on the store page is probably a significant project.
• Some information on the store page should come direct from FT and not have to be dug out of any forum, regardless of where it is located. This includes the, “If you buy this you will also need this and this.” There is also the closely related, “To use this you will need to download this application into your Android phone, etc.” IMHO it should also include links to all related user manuals and probably the manufacturers web page if FT is not the manufacturer. This kind of information only sells more product, so there is no reason why it should not be there except that it takes time and energy to put it there.
I believe I have been after what you are describing as I have several times already created threads on products I've bought with the intention of having a sort of knowledge base to exchange ideas (Blade Inductrix, UMX F4F Wildcat, RCExplorer Tricopter V4). Some have grown lengthey and others not so much. There are plenty others generated by other forum members too (UMX Radian, FT DIY Gremlins)

I have been told that our forum will be getting some sort of overhaul. Perhaps this endeavor will mesh well with that as well. For now why don't we just work with what we've already started and upkeep it as we want. As the usefulness grows we can stick it or unstick it as well. I think what we need to do to make this work is take ownership of our threads, promote them, prune them if need be, and they will grow "naturally" as they have in the past. The one thing we might change in time might be where they are located in the forum and how we would link to them efficiently.

Regarding your Vortex 150, maybe the squeeky wheel getting greased applies here. Some who post and see less than a hoped-number of responses, give their thread a "bump". Posting in an old thread will pop it to the top of New Posts and Today's Posts which is my primary means of perusing. It's only when I seek something specific that I go via the broad outlined forum titles and hope to find what I'm after. Sometimes I do a search and that often proves successful but not always. I suspect there are glitches in the forum's advanced search engine. Nevertheless the popularity of a few threads have easily warranted them being stuck.

Thoughts? Am I missing anything?
 

CrashRecovery

I'm a care bear...Really?
Mentor
#20
A user response area directly on the store site has advantages and disadvantages.
• It is certainly easy to find as it is right there in front of you when you are shopping, but it is less convenient to find if you have to look in both the forum and the store page for relevant information.
• It might somewhat detract from the functionality of the store site as it could become very long.
• It encourages the questions like, “What battery do I need for this?” but discourages the longer more thoughtful posts with pictures and video where people talk about their user experience. Those longer posts are probably more positive so discouraging positivity isn’t good.
• It could be seen as harmful to the seller if people start ranting about how bad the product is, but I think all feedback, both positive and negative, is good feedback if it is honest and not abusive. This could be true for the same information in a separate forum thread except that it is not so “in your face” as you are making your purchasing decision. Either way, moderators can take down anything that is deemed inappropriate.
• It is probably more difficult to implement. A simple link on the store page to a separate thread is almost trivial to implement. Likewise, Starting a sticky thread in the regular forum when a new product hits the store site is probably pretty easy. Implementing a forum like functionality on the store page is probably a significant project.
• Some information on the store page should come direct from FT and not have to be dug out of any forum, regardless of where it is located. This includes the, “If you buy this you will also need this and this.” There is also the closely related, “To use this you will need to download this application into your Android phone, etc.” IMHO it should also include links to all related user manuals and probably the manufacturers web page if FT is not the manufacturer. This kind of information only sells more product, so there is no reason why it should not be there except that it takes time and energy to put it there.
So Let's look at the statements I put in red.
The lines about adding a thread or article link to the store is probably easier than we think. Look how often sites have youtube video on the product page. This seems simple enough. The Issue I see with this is the product might not have a thread or article when the product is released. Can it be added after a week or so, I think so.

The line about questions is the exact reason we see so many repeat posts. Two things I think happen. One is people don't go to the store and open up the product page to see the battery, motor combos the guys at FT say work with the plane and list as an option to buy with the speed build kits. Second is they just post and not use the search function. I said this above about its use and I use it a lot. If I can't find my topic when I use the new threads tab at the top of the page I simply just go to the search tab and look for what I want. So I think it comes down to people wanting that immediate, right now, I don't want to wait response. I'm not saying you are one of them as clearly you know your way around the average forum.

I have heard people relate RCG to the "old guys" at the fields they visit. I don't go there all but maybe 10 times a year and that is mainly to look up for sale stuff at swap meets near me. Otherwise I steer clear of RCG. I've seen people get destroyed by members that have been "around longer" for asking a simple question. I've never seen that here. Also you have to look at what the community is about to understand each of these forums. FT is all about getting into the hobby and building a lifestyle that keeps you in the air. RCG does have some of that but there is more of an advanced vibe, imo, to a lot of the topic areas on there.
This forum was started by the guys at FT but after the forum really took off and basically self moderated, mentored new people and all together made things easy for new people the guys just let it run on its own. Yea they probably pay for the hosting rights or how ever you own a website, but that's mainly all they do. There are enough of us on here that have personal connections to Bixler, Jen (his wife), Austin, Alex, Stephan, everyone who works there, That we can reach out to them and in most cases with in 12 hours issues are resolved so that everyone is happy. Balu is the best at it honestly. As David put it in one podcast or a video they ran live, He called the mods and mentors here on the site a bunch of care bears.
One of the best examples of this was with a member Airhawk. when he first joined his designs were, lets say interesting. Some of us avoided the topics other were saints and helped him. It took him a couple years but he finally caught on, became a better builder and well wasn't so cringe worthy anymore. I applauded his determination to stay with the hobby and it paid off.
This might have gone sideways from what I started off with, but as you said no one has been nasty, all comments have been constructive and honestly I think we might benefit from this topic depending on how we can implement the ideas discussed in this thread.