ESC Question

[Theuglycamel]

Hello Everyone,
I've got a few post on here for a FT Guinea Pig that I've been crashing all winter. Upon my last crash, I found that I had smoked a winding on one of my iPower IBM2212q 1000kv motors. Here's where my question comes in. I replaced these 2212s with some No Name 2213 935kv motors (see pic) with no name 20a escs. My iPowers had 20a Simonk escs. I'm experiencing a drastic thrust difference between the two setups. I'm using the same cheap 10x4.7 props on both and with a 3s 2200 the Ipower motors had unlimited vertical and would get away from you with 100% differential thrust. I'm having a hard time getting the 2213s to even attain flight... I don't have a spec sheet for these 2213s but the Emax equivalent has a max thrust of 860g and the iPowers are rated for 850. I don't have either of the turn numbers but I'm assuming one of a few things. Either the generic escs I have don't provide enough amperage to bring the 2213s to full potential, OR these 2213s are WAY over-rated. OR I'm expecting way too much for a 935kv motor to compare with a 1000kv motor...
I've tried different batteries, I've synced my throttle, and I've maxed out my end points for the throttle channel. I am able to get off the ground and make a few turns around the field with a 1300 4s, but I don't really want to smoke these escs or motors so I've been laying off the 14.8...

The only real difference I see between the two setups is the esc wiring (hence why i haven't just swapped the escs between the motors). The iPowers have heavy (maybe 14 ga) power wires and 3.5mm bullet connectors. The 2213s have very thin (18 or even 22ga) with TINY bullet connectors (1.5mm or 2mm). Could this possibly be part of the problem with these 2213s? Thing is, if the wiring were causing a bottleneck, I would assume the wires would get warm when in operation. Neither the wiring or the escs get warm whatsoever.


Anyway, I've rambled enough. If anyone has any ideas I'd greatly appreciate hearing about it. Thank you!

 

[Wildthing]

Try your good esc with the motor and see what happens.

Also with the motors and what you don't see are the magnets and the windings inside which can make a world of difference in power even though they are the same size. Advertised specs are not always truthful

 

[ElectriSean]

ESC's don't exactly 'provide' current, the motor draws what it needs. If it draws more than the ESC can handle, it will get hot and eventually fail. I imagine your motors are just over-rated, which isn't uncommon.

 

[Merv]

Have you calibrated the new ECS's? They may not be running at full speed.

 

[Theuglycamel]

Merv, Yes and No. I THOUGHT I had calibrated the escs, as I said, I don't have any documentation and I was cutting the process short before it would complete. At first did the typical full throttle power on, two wake beeps, pause, one max throttle beep, moved throttle to min, one min throttle beep, then... nothing. So I powered it down and fired it back up, it didn't make any difference in the throttle end points so I assumed (yeah I know) that the escs were programmed accordingly. So I did some reading and tried a few different methods (I needed to wait for another acknowledge beep) and lo and behold the 2213s woke up. They're still don't compare to the 2212s but 65 kv times 11 would be slightly slower.
Excuse my grammar ElectriSean, I meant to say "Either these ESCs aren't providing full potential to the motor" which would be voltage not amperage. Good eye, I'll try to be more accurate with my descriptions in the future.

Thanks for all the input, I think I've got the most out of these black cans that I'm ever gonna. I'm still kicking around the idea of just buying a pair of decent ESCs just to see if there is a difference. I didn't want to try my iPower escs as they're already wired for the 2212s. I wouldn't mind rewiring if it were to be permanent. Just too much hassle for a test.

Of course now I'm on the hunt for a 1000g thrust setup with either a 9050 or a 10.47.... Good thing its payday week...

 

[FDS]

Also the real Kv of the motors may not be 950, you could be flying at 800 tops. I have found some cheaper ESC’s to have very bad throttle curves, I have stopped buying the cheapo ones now to try and keep some consistency. I threw two out that were awful. Couldn’t be bothered to reprogram them!

 

[SlingShot]

Regarding your end points and 100% differential: i recently had a near miss with a setup like that.

When I applied a little rudder while at full throttle, the effected motor, rather than speed up or maintain its speed, cut out completely. The plane immediately entered reverse direction "crazy mode" and tried to flat spin.

Probably not what you experienced, but it IS something to be aware of.

 

[Theuglycamel]

I'm assuming that as well. I don't know enough about iPower but it looks like they may have been a decent motor at one time. That being said, the kv rating for them is probably more accurate than these No Names. This is my first experience with a generic ESC (at least so generic I couldn't find documentation) and I'm of the same mindset FDS. Might just cut the wires and toss these guys in a junk drawer later on...

 

[Theuglycamel]

SlingShot, I know exactly what you mean with the diff thrust. When my motor died I lost almost all left yaw, so when I turned to the right the bad motor locked completely (has a bad upper bearing). Needless to say she did an about-face on me real fast lol.

 

[FDS]

If you can find documentation on the ESC’s it might just be a programming thing. I now only use two types of ESC that I can get easily and I know work. Neither are more than $15 each, with a Bec.

 

[Theuglycamel]

I'm still digging around on them. I did pick up a 10.00 jrelesc program card from amazon today. Might get a little farther with them that way. I've pulled the skin off one of these ESCs hoping I'd find some number of some kind, but I didn't find anything whatsoever. All I do know is they are "Stock from a size 500 Quadcopter".

 

[FDS]

Yeah, that was the problem I had with my unknown ESC, couldn’t find documentation at all.

 

[Theuglycamel]

Guess worst case I can always build that RC desktop fan I've always wanted lol. Is there anyway you can tell what an esc is by it's design? Just an example, I see most Siomonk escs have 1 or 2 capacitors in the power circuit and BlHeli tends to be very small... This is just speculation... If there's no way to tell then I'll just have to wing it with this program card. Thanks again!

 

[FDS]

I have found a brand name that works for me, the Turnigy ones are fairly reliable, as are Skywalker ones. Those are all pre set up for fixed wing. SimonK is a firmware loaded on the ESC, it’s designed for quads so doesn’t have over discharge protection for example.

 

[Theuglycamel]

I've got two cans running both directions (cc and ccw). Neither were labeled with ANYTHING but they both perform the same. I'm running them according to the thread (ccw on the right hand thread). I may swap em around just to see what happens tonight (raining here anyways...) I've also ordered some 9050s to see if they might perform a little better than these cheap 10x4.7s.
Kananga, that's awesome! Thanks for the info!

 

[Theuglycamel]

Ok, I'm done with these No Names... Took her out last night and again she could barely keep her butt off the ground. First video shows her on 3s and the second on 4s. Did get some good videos but even on 4s you can see how gutless she is. I was going to swap motors last night but for once we didn't have ANY wind... so we flew till dark. I'll get em swapped out this weekend and save these 2213s for an ft cruiser.

 

[Theuglycamel]

That's what I'm assuming as well. I didn't amp test to see what I'm drawing but I can tell it's not close to it's rating. I've got one setup on my workbench right now. I'll keep hacking on the esc program till I figure out what the issue is. My typical "start the receiver with full throttle" definitely doesn't initiate calibration... I acts like full throttle at boot puts it into program mode. Just not sure where I'm at from there. I'll do some testing and take some notes. Hopefully I can wrap it around my head without any instructions lol.

 

[Wildthing]

I would simply try that esc either on a different plane with a proven motor/prop combo and see how it does or swap out the motor in that plane.

I have a couple smaller HK esc's I can't get into the program mode no matter what I do, most though I can. Possibly some need the program card to hack into them.

 

[Theuglycamel]

I don't think i did say, but yes I even pushed the top end to 120% just to be sure. It really acts like the esc hits it's top limit at around 85% up-stick. My program card should be in today (although I'm not too hopeful) and I've got some 30a simonk escs on a slow boat from China coming too just in case I can't get these to wake up. I do have a nice blheli that I've been saving for my CAP 232 Max. If this program card doesn't work, I'll wire this one up just to determine for sure it's the esc and not just poopy motors.

 

[Theuglycamel]

Well the goose is dead. The ipower motors performed marvelously but I was also WAY overweight( I was testing my new fpv rig WITH my gopro still mounted). I'm sure this had a lot to do with those generic motors keeping up as well (even though it was way lighter when I was running those). But I did do some testing on the bench and found that I had in fact screwed up the throttle calibration. I had two escs that hadn't been programmed, still new in the bag. So I pulled them out and benched it next to the generic motor and esc that I had programmed in the Goose. The unused escs had a DRAMATICALLY stronger run than the escs I had mis-programmed. This program card doesn't work with this model either of course so I'm still stuck with these two escs that won't go full throttle. I'll put them to the side until I get to them again.
Started a cruiser and mini cruiser build this weekend so I'll probably move these iPower motors over to the full sized cruiser when it's done. The goose is on the back burner now. I've order two sunnysky x2216 1400kvs with 1220g thrust on a 9060. By factory numbers I should be about 800g total thrust over the iPowers. I'll trim some fat on the next build and do a better job of making my spars lighter (1' oak was a bit overkill).

I have this electric airsoft gun with full range gimbal is burning a hole in my pocket... If I can't get this goose to carry her, I'll look into a kraken... I'll post the video of my epic tree crash this evening. Its back to rain here again so I guess the week is all about the hotgue!