Freewing 80mm F-86 Sabre

[F106DeltaDart]

Saw that there wasn't a thread on this wonderful model, so I thought I would start one to discuss it. After 3 years of owning and flying this model, it is still probably my favorite model to fly. It tracks extremely well in the air, sounds great, and has excellent performance. If you are looking for a first jet with retracts, this is one that is hard to beat in my opinion. Here are a few specs and photos of mine in flight:
Wingspan:1200mm
Power System: 80mm 12-blade edf and 80A ESC
Battery: 6S 4000mah
Average Flight time: 3.5 minutes
CG position: 190mm back from leading edge
Control setting: Factory recommended low rates with 20% expo.
Runway conditions: I have flown off of pavement, packed dirt, geotex, and very short grass. With longer grass, takeoff becomes very difficult.

 

[ranger351]

That looks like a great plane! I would like to get into EDF jets eventually. A lot of the great WWII pilots that I admire went on to fly a F-86. Does anyone make a F-4 Phantom? That would be another one I would have to have!

 

[F106DeltaDart]

There was an FMS 70mm out for a while, but its discontinued now. Banana hobby has a twin 70mm Phantom, but it has a long list of issues. You can make it fly well with a substantial amount of work, ditch the stock power system (go with twin FMS 12-blade units), redo the elevator mounting/linkages, and add a gyro. I had one for a while, but it never flew right and always needed maintenance. From what I've heard the gyro tames it a lot though, although mine never had it. It finally was totalled when a flap separated on takeoff.

For good quality edfs, I highly recommend sticking with either the Freewing, durafly, or the newer FMS jets. They tend to fly pretty well out of the box with the laundry list of modifications. For the moment, I'm holding out and hoping that Freewing releases a good quality version.

 

[F106DeltaDart]

Video of one of my flights this morning, this plane is way too much fun to fly.

 

[Konrad]

F106 DD,
I'd like to ask what was your experience with the FMS 12 bladed (10 bladed) 70mm fan unit. I assume we are talking about the one marketed about 3 years ago. It is my understanding that the rotor load was rather high. And that subsequently FMS dropped the blade count down to 8 blades. Do you have experience with the WeMoTec Evo 70 mm? If so can you give us your impressions as to the relative merits of the various 70mm EDF units.

It's only fair that I give my assessment of the few units I've flown. I find that all (Freewing, and FMS and ChangeSun) 70mm 12 bladed fans have far too high a rotor load. I don't like the aircraft performance verses amp draw of the 12 bladed EDF units. I've gotten a noticeable improvement in performance (speed) and at the same time a significant drop in amp draw going with the lower count rotors. As far as noise these higher blade count rotors sound much better than the banshee scream we got with the 4, 5 and 6 bladed rotors as long as the number of stators in the housing weren't some whole factorial of the rotor blade count. For example the WeMoTec rotor (9 blades) in the 9 stator ChangeSun housing sounded horrible. I also don't like the 8 bladed FMS rotor in the 4 stator (vanes) housing. The 10 bladed Change Sun EDF unit seems to be as high a rotor count as I'm comfortable with the noise to performance trade off. To date all my 70mm EDF systems have been 5 & 6 cell set ups.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I can't count! I just found the old FMS F4 Phantom EDF unit and V2 had the 10 bladed rotor. Later this was rationalized to an 8 bladed rotor.

 

[F106DeltaDart]

I'm actually referring to the new one that just entered the market a few months ago: http://www.fmsmodel.com/fms-70mm-ducted-fan-v1-12-blades-with-2860-kv1850-motor-6s. FMS just released a new line of edfs from 50mm up to 90mm. Lighter than most other units, and more powerful at a reasonable amperage. I don't know the exact specs as there isn't any data sheets on them, but they certainly have a noticablely better power to weight ratio than the Freewing or changesun units. I replaced the heavy metal Freewing edf in my 90mm F-16 with a new FMS fan and there was a big bonus in both power and flight time.

 

[Konrad]

Good to know, thanks.
Glad to learn that there is a boost efficiency. And that it isn't just the fan, I see FMS has upped the game with the inrunner being a "stock" offering. This make what looks like a $30 dollar premium well worth the price!

I'll need to look at these 80mm and 90mm units. I've been changing out the 80mm Freewing EDF with a hybrid using the Freewing inrunner housing*, Fan Jet rotor, and Neu 1410/2Y SE motor for my six cell set ups. This has brought the Freewing 80mm models from just flyable to being real nice performing ships. (I need to say that I'm flying at 6000 feet altitude (Denver Area), this thin air costs me over 15% power [thrust] from what the same set up gets at sea level). As of late the FMS EDF offerings have lagged behind Freewing's. I'm glad to see that FMS has stepped up their game and now has the inrunner EDF. My hybrid set up is nice but it often cost an additional 30% ($110) over the cost of Freewing model. This new FMS EDF power system now moves the FMA model to the top of the EDF foam ARF market, both in value and performance. I now hope we can see new airframes, maybe more from the European nations.

The WeMoTec 90 EVO and FanJet 90 have offered performance that is head and shoulders above the stock 12 bladed Freewing 90mm unit. I truly hope the FMS units will be in this class of performance.


*I can't figure out why Freewing went with the aft mounted outrunner EDF housing. Might it be to aid in cooling of the inefficient outrunner (energy in vs energy out)? I also find that the proprietary rotor mounting system makes upgrading or mix and matching EDF components frustrating. To date the Freewing rotor mounting system has been trouble free. But as it has been noted the performance from the Freewing rotor really doesn't make the Freewing EDF a good choice. I'd like to see Freewing offer all their EDF jets in the ARF Plus configuration. Or better yet come out with an EDF unit that is more than just a battery cooker!

All the best,
Konrad

 

[F106DeltaDart]

I don't know about comparisons to those setups, they are a bit out of my price range, but the new FMS units are definitely a pretty good improvement. That said, I flew my stock Freewing F-86 and F-14 at 5000' for 2 years when I was in AZ without any issues. Power was scale for those airframes, but flew fine without too many issues. The heavier F-16 probably would have been more difficult though. At least a few of their jets are offered in ARF+ though, that's how I got my 70mm F-104.

Although I really like the new FMS edfs, I am quite disapointed in their choice of new jets so far. They have pretty much copied the incoming Freewing lineup plane for plane (Yak 130, A-10, Avanti). Hopefully we see some of the less produced ones F-100, F-105, F-106, F-35 (a correct looking version for once!), F-22, B-1B, Vulcan, A-5, ect.

 

[Konrad]

I need to correct a misconception. When I said "Just flyable" I didn't mean just above a stall. Even at 6K to 7K the stock Freewing EDFs do fly, but more like heavy loaded trainers. I have to admit I really liked the performance from the stock 6 bladed twin edf Me 262 and Su35 even at 6k feet.

Not sure if the ARF Plus offering is an issue with the OEM of the importer. But I was told by a "Martin" at MotionRC that the ARF Plus concept was a failure in sales and it would be going away. (looks to me to be more of a marketing failure) I like getting my airframes at a $50 discount without the EDF unit. Then applying this savings towards that $110 hybrid or other high performance EDF unit. This comes out to a $60 premium for why we fly jets. I think we all want jet performance from our EDF jets.

Copies? Aren't all scale models copies? But yes why bring to market much the same that is already there? As I don't know what the lead time is for the manufacturing of tooling and such for EPO foam molds I can't say whether FMS is copying Freewing or Freewing is copying FMS and is faster at bringing products to market. Isn't the Freewing Avanti S a late entry into the market following the FMS Futura. But yes seeing the same type of ships on the flight line is boring.

I noticed that all the birds on your wish list are from the American industrial war machine.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[F106DeltaDart]

You might have missed that the Avro Vulcan was on the list . Most of the foreign planes that I love are prop jobs though, others are fine, but they are not my personal favorites. To each their own, but those are the plane that I would be interested in. The issue with ARF+ is the same as it has been with unpainted kits. The vast majority seems to want an out of the box PNP experience. The additional cost in modding time and money just isn't worth it to a lot of people I guess. Shame, because I really liked the Kit+ configs. But, most of the Freewing power systems can be resold elsewhere to recoup some of the investment.

 

[Konrad]

You might have missed that the Avro Vulcan was on the list . ...

I stand corrected!

The "V" bombers great menacing looking cold war machines.

All the best,
Konrad