VTOL Wing

[apurchase]

Everyone loves a wing, particularly the Versa Wing. DARPA is working on a VTOL wing, can David dream up something?
DARPA's budget is $130 million and 52 months, pretty sure our favorite Swede can beat them in time and money!

I'm picturing two pivoting large diameter EDFs cut into the Versa wing so that in it's horizontal position, it gives the trust needed to lift the wing. Once pivoted along its axis, it'll provide rearward thrust for the forward flight!

I know, sounds like an Osprey but in a sleek Flite Test package!

Practically, I'm thinking it'll take three props, two inline rear ones and a center one toward the nose. And more practically (?), your typical multirotor props in some kind of circular frame.

Can you build this futuristic design David, maybe as a FPV platform?

A

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/TTO/P...anding_Experimental_Plane_(VTOL_X-Plane).aspx

http://www.darpa.mil/uploadedImages/Content/NewsEvents/Releases/2013/VTOLXPlane1.jpg

 

[Craftydan]

Do you mean somethign like this:

Sure it's a review and not a scratch build, but the flight control electronics to switch in/out of VTOL is a *very* tricky thing.

 

[lonewolf7717]

Verdy verdy tricky indeed. The mechanics involved are, yes fairly simple. The algorithms that need to be calculated 20-50 times a second are not.

 

[Craftydan]

Verdy verdy tricky indeed. The mechanics involved are, yes fairly simple. The algorithms that need to be calculated 20-50 times a second are not.

It's *possible* to pull it off with something like a KK2 running openaero -- it has the hardware to do it, and most of the control software for each mode is written (even including handling different board orentations), but that smooth transition between them would probably be a nighmare to get right. Then add to that the "tuning" you'd have to do (scratchbuilds are like snoflakes, they're all similar, but a little different). Really a prickley project, especially if others want to copy, which we would!

My hat is off to the quadshot guys for putting it together in a successful kickstarter project.

 

[apurchase]

I knew someone mention the Quadshot, it is the same idea but different format.

The Quadshot is "an aerobatic blend of RC helis and planes", I'm more interested in the stability and endurance of a wing with the convenience VTOL. I don't really care if it can hover for long periods, the emphasis is on wing for me. And it being a potential FPV platform.

The biggest problem with the Quadshot for me is the $600 price tag plus shipping to Canada. And I prefer the idea of scratch build, and rebuilding the frame or reusing some of the parts, like a KK2, when I eventually get bored of it.

I think if the Flite Test guys can pull it off and ppl see it fly, more ppl would be interested and see even more potential in it.

A

 

[lonewolf7717]

So I guess this wouldn't count? Lol....got pretty good at the VTO part of equation with my modified 4s stinger....the L part was shall we say lacking

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

Do you mean somethign like this:

Sure it's a review and not a scratch build, but the flight control electronics to switch in/out of VTOL is a *very* tricky thing.

I saw first hand how crazy this thing was to try to fly. It took 4 Flite Testers 15 minutes just to figure out how to get it into the air... and then into the trees at the back of the flight field.

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

Wait! I've got it, picture a Kraken with four motors, one at each end of a 'pod' of some kind so you have two motors in the front of the wing and two behind.

Now the front motors are on 90 degree pivot mounts to allow them to point up or forward and the motors behind the wing can point down or back.

It would take off like a quad copter with the motors spinning on a horizontal plane then transition to forward flight by pivoting the front motors down and the back motors up. You could even make the back motors have folding props so that in 'wing mode' it is only using the front motors and the airfoil for lift.

Oh!!! or you could go with a Y config where you only have one motor in the back centered with folding props.

(Going off to doodle)

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

Here is what I was picturing: (As Doc Brown would say, Please excuse the crudity of my model, I didn't have time to build it to scale. Picture the 90 degree pivot mechanism that would rotate the motors/motor mount.)

Quad motor, VTOL takeoff and hover configuration:


Transition to forward, wing lift flight


Forward, wing lift flight at full power for maximum speed and lift


Forward cruise with rear props feathered for long range efficiency/reduced inherent drag


All of the above but done as a Y/Tricopter configuration

 

[lonewolf7717]

Similar in mechanics to your suggestion and drawing, one exception being rear motors stay engaged. Believe guy that built this one was major ardu guru.

 

[apurchase]

I wanna return to this idea quickly, I wanna show what I envisioned... Plz do not mock my AutoCad skills!

 

[Foam Addict]

Very nice, but you might want a tri setup for stability. Bi copters are hard to fly, and harder to set up.

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

Very nice, but you might want a tri setup for stability. Bi copters are hard to fly, and harder to set up.

My thinking too. In watching the video lonewolf put up...

Similar in mechanics to your suggestion and drawing, one exception being rear motors stay engaged. Believe guy that built this one was major ardu guru.

It looks like they programmed in a transition to bring the motor booms up 25-30 degrees pause a second then pull up to the full 90 degree for transitioning to winged flight. But you'll notice when transitioning back to rotor lift it just traverses the rotors back all in one motion.

Now I've got an Arduino and I've managed to make it do a few things and there are lots of tutorials on the web for using one to control servos. My thinking is you have a spare channel (gear,flaps) wired out from your reciever to an Arduino (nano) that has the transitions programmed into it. The Arduino starts assuming rotor mode and just listens for a PWM high signal from the receiver. You take off and when you flip your toggle, the PWM goes high and the Arduino controls your 4(3) servo's tilt sequence and your rotors are moved into wing mode. When you flip the toggle back PWM goes low, Arduino tilts the rotor servos back.

Now the hard part is this: What about your control board? How do you tell it that you are no longer flying a multi rotor? I've not had a chance to play with a KK2 or similar board yet but it may be possible with something like an ardupilot. The mechanical transition is straight forward (In my head ) but there may be a way to tie that same channel toggle (gear/flaps) with mixing or mode change on the board to switch up the control signals so you can go from wing to rotor control easily.

Great now I've got to update my list:

1. Sketchup tutorials
2. Baby blender-barron
3. OV 10 Bronco
4. Versa wing
5. Tricopter
6. Trans-Versa wing

 

[lonewolf7717]

Ok so question? So yes, it's been established a tri motor configuration or quad for that matter will address pitch and roll stabilization issues but what takes care of yaw? I am envisioning a spinning flying wing of death right now. Perhaps like a tricopter you work in front lift motor with some rudder control? Second question, could this whole thing not be simplified with a direct lift system running on a basic three axis gyro and then perhaps a front or rear mounted motor for linear flight. Throttle differential mix could be be assigned to switch for a nice slow transition from lift to forward momentum. One last thing, punching all those holes in a wing will adversely effect flight characteristics, just not sure how much.

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

I would agree that you'd need at least a Tri-rotor configuration. The more I've thought about it the Quad-rotor would seem to be simpler. With a Tri I'd have to not only work in the 90 degree rotation for forward flight but also be able to have the Yaw mechanism. Since a Quad wouldn't need the yaw, all four motors would only need the 90 degree. Like the VTOL Bixler.

Just picture that built into a Versa Wing.

 

[Billchuck]

You could do it in a tri configuration without extra equipment. Use both front motors to control yaw. The motors would pitch fore/aft like a bicopter; you could even tie elevator into it to get fore/aft thrust in hover without tilting the frame.

 

[Halcyon25]

Heres a tricopter variant, I remember seeing a build video but cant seem to find it in my 5 minutes of looking...

 

[JasonEricAnderson]

Just saw this. The FireFLY6



2x Tri copter flying wing.

 

[makattack]

Now I've got an Arduino and I've managed to make it do a few things and there are lots of tutorials on the web for using one to control servos. My thinking is you have a spare channel (gear,flaps) wired out from your reciever to an Arduino (nano) that has the transitions programmed into it. The Arduino starts assuming rotor mode and just listens for a PWM high signal from the receiver. You take off and when you flip your toggle, the PWM goes high and the Arduino controls your 4(3) servo's tilt sequence and your rotors are moved into wing mode. When you flip the toggle back PWM goes low, Arduino tilts the rotor servos back.

Now the hard part is this: What about your control board? How do you tell it that you are no longer flying a multi rotor? I've not had a chance to play with a KK2 or similar board yet but it may be possible with something like an ardupilot. The mechanical transition is straight forward (In my head ) but there may be a way to tie that same channel toggle (gear/flaps) with mixing or mode change on the board to switch up the control signals so you can go from wing to rotor control easily.

The website for that APM based VTOL plane indicates they're using a APM 2.5 board/flight controller -- just run a google search on "APM VTOL" and you'll find the wingcopter and other experiments in this. I think I saw on this forum that someone got Ardupilot installed on a KK2 board recently, so that's a possibility as well. Speaking of which, I just ordered a cheap (China) APM2.6 knock-off for experimenting on my Blunt Nose Versa Wing -- but I want to consider adding two more servos for differential spoilers that will give me yaw control even with one pusher motor.

 

[Kurt0326]

Wasn't Foamandtape dude trying something like this?