1387s racing miniquad

[1387]

Hi guys,

So I've flown my tricopter for quite some time and had much fun doing it, but I think I hit the limit of what this rather large machine can do in terms of "acro-flying" or "racing". I'm not borisb or charpu, but I like to fly fast and do some tricks here and there, and the tricopter is wobbling and the yaw feels not right when doing quick directional changes or throttle punch-outs. Some things can be fixed with the changes that the community made to Cleanflight for David Windestals new mini tricopter and a retuning of my PIDs, but I don't think I'll get my mini-tri as stable as I would want to.

Long story short: I'd really like a miniquad (and probably lengthen the arms of my tri so I can use it like more of a AP machine).

I don't want to spend a fortune, so I will not buy a 120€ frame of some sorts, but I do want to spend some money to get quality motors/ESCs and so on.

I do want to ask the community what motors to buy and so on, but the first question that I want to ask is what size frame I shoud buy. I know this depends on what flying I want to do and the person flying, but I don't want to buy a 250 sized frame now, just to learn that the main part of the community has moved to 180 5 months later.

So question to you all:
What sized frame would you want to buy, if you would like to build a new miniquad for acro flying and racing?

Thanks in advance for your answers!
-1387

 

[Ocean]

This is a tough decision, but it seems the community is moving towards the 180, but I could be wrong. Who know's where the community will move in the future?

I have recently maidened my 180 and loved it, it was more agile than a 250 but lacked the top speed.

My 250 is Very fast and a beast to handle, when flown correctly it can be a blast.

Sorry I have no answer for you, but I would say its more exactly what you want from the quad.

 

[jipp]

ill add. it will be easier to assemble a 250; you will have more space. but if we can be honest with our selfs.. once you have one.. you will be curious and want another.. :0) so i say go with a 250, with the skills you learn assembling it.. the 180 should be easier? heh.

i dunno.. im will be building a 250 soon. but have plans to build a 180 over the winter.

chris.

 

[Ocean]

ill add. it will be easier to assemble a 250; you will have more space. but if we can be honest with our selfs.. once you have one.. you will be curious and want another.. :0) so i say go with a 250, with the skills you learn assembling it.. the 180 should be easier? heh.

i dunno.. im will be building a 250 soon. but have plans to build a 180 over the winter.

chris.

I agree with Jipp a 250 is much easier than a 180 to build.

 

[JohnRambozo]

I see a lot of people trying the 180 and really enjoying them.

But then you see that a lot... Personally I remember it happening with skateboarding. The boards got skinnier and the wheels got super tiny (38mm diameter) to save weight but after the novelty of being thrown to the ground by the tiniest pebble wore off, people came to their senses and settled into 50-55mm wheels for the most part.

If I had to guess, I'd say the 180 class will be a fad, and the 250s will remain popular for a long time. Just my opinion.

 

[C0d3M0nk3y]

I say just build something and enjoy it. All mini quads are fun. Your personal preference will dictate whether you like one size over another. All or almost all of the components you use will work on frames 180-250 in size. If you want to try out a different size a little later, just pick up a different frame and move your components over to it. And since you're looking at budget frames, it won't cost much to try a different one.

 

[Tritium]

I just picked up one of these frames. I LIKE the price but suspect it will be a handful with six 1104 4000KV motors.

https://www.liftrc.com/raiju-rotorx-frame

Thurmond

 

[1387]

Thanks for your replies!

I don't fear the harder build, but I think that I should go the 250 route like most of you mentioned. I leaned towards 250 sized frames before, because they are more readily available and theres more info about them out there. The 250 size shouldn't be "dead" anytime soon, so that's enough for me.
I also really want a servo changing the tilt angle of the camera and I suspect it would be much easier to fit that into a 250 sized frame.

For a 250 frame, the ZMR 250 V2 looks nice. It's carbon, it's not too expensive and it's tested by the community, but don't hesitate recommending other good frames though. It should have the following:
- Replaceable arms for easy repair (that's why the raiju rotorx frame is a no-go for me, but thank's for the recommendation)
- Enough space inside for all the electronics to safe them in a crash (I think putting the ESCs on top of the arms should be fine, though)
- I'd really like a carbon frame, but a really good G10 frame should also do the trick
- Space for an FPV camera protected in the frame, there should be an rather easy (DIY-)way to pivot it via a servo
Any recommendations where to buy the ZMR 250 V2 frame in europe?


With the frame size being more or less fixed now, I would like to hear your opinions about wich motors to buy. I've used some 2212 1000kV Cobras in my tricopter and I'm really really happy with them. Tiger motors seem to be a little bit more expensive than the cobras. Are they worth the cost, or do you think cobras are the way to go? Any other brand I should consider?
I really want quality motors, I don't want to be forced to replace all of them later (like I had to do with my tri and the cheap NTM motors). But I also don't want to pay more than I should. 20€ seem reasonable for a quality motor to me, but if the >25€ tigers are worth it, I'd consider them. Availability in germany/europe is a key factor aswell.

Also, wich size and kV I should go? This is were I really don't have a lot of experience nor knowledge what to go for. A lot of the "big names" seem to go for 2204 2300kV cobras. Should I consider another size/kV or just go for what's proven? Any positives/negatives about one or another size/kV?

The last question to answer before I can order and build is: What ESCs I should go for?
KISSs have a legendary reputation, but seem to catch fire alot.
I want a reliable ESC without having it catching on fire, but I am fascinated by comments of users of them who go like: "Yes, they are that good." If I go the KISS route, is the 30A version the way to go, or should I buy 18As? I fear that the 18 Amps would catch on fire on me, the 30Amps seem to be a little more robust? Also the 6S compatability of the KISS 30As could be a factor. Do you think it is worth it to have the option later on or do you think it doesn't matter and if I'd want to go 6S later on, I could buy a 6S ESC then?

Other ESCs I've looked at are the DYS 20A and 30A, or favourite littlebees 20As wich are all available at multirotorparts.com. They also have an european warehouse and feature OneShot and regenerative breaking if I'm not mistaking. The DYS will no longer be carried by MRP, so the favourite littlebees would be the ESC to buy from them?
Any other brands/ESCs/shops I should consider?


I know these are a lot of questions, but I really can't wait to start building!
Thanks a lot to all of you guys helping me out, you're awesome!
When I get the parts locked in and ready, I'll document the build and post it here.

-1387

 

[Ocean]

Thanks for your replies!

I don't fear the harder build, but I think that I should go the 250 route like most of you mentioned. I leaned towards 250 sized frames before, because they are more readily available and theres more info about them out there. The 250 size shouldn't be "dead" anytime soon, so that's enough for me.
I also really want a servo changing the tilt angle of the camera and I suspect it would be much easier to fit that into a 250 sized frame.

For a 250 frame, the ZMR 250 V2 looks nice. It's carbon, it's not too expensive and it's tested by the community, but don't hesitate recommending other good frames though. It should have the following:
- Replaceable arms for easy repair (that's why the raiju rotorx frame is a no-go for me, but thank's for the recommendation)
- Enough space inside for all the electronics to safe them in a crash (I think putting the ESCs on top of the arms should be fine, though)
- I'd really like a carbon frame, but a really good G10 frame should also do the trick
- Space for an FPV camera protected in the frame, there should be an rather easy (DIY-)way to pivot it via a servo
Any recommendations where to buy the ZMR 250 V2 frame in europe?


With the frame size being more or less fixed now, I would like to hear your opinions about wich motors to buy. I've used some 2212 1000kV Cobras in my tricopter and I'm really really happy with them. Tiger motors seem to be a little bit more expensive than the cobras. Are they worth the cost, or do you think cobras are the way to go? Any other brand I should consider?
I really want quality motors, I don't want to be forced to replace all of them later (like I had to do with my tri and the cheap NTM motors). But I also don't want to pay more than I should. 20€ seem reasonable for a quality motor to me, but if the >25€ tigers are worth it, I'd consider them. Availability in germany/europe is a key factor aswell.

Also, wich size and kV I should go? This is were I really don't have a lot of experience nor knowledge what to go for. A lot of the "big names" seem to go for 2204 2300kV cobras. Should I consider another size/kV or just go for what's proven? Any positives/negatives about one or another size/kV?

The last question to answer before I can order and build is: What ESCs I should go for?
KISSs have a legendary reputation, but seem to catch fire alot.
I want a reliable ESC without having it catching on fire, but I am fascinated by comments of users of them who go like: "Yes, they are that good." If I go the KISS route, is the 30A version the way to go, or should I buy 18As? I fear that the 18 Amps would catch on fire on me, the 30Amps seem to be a little more robust? Also the 6S compatability of the KISS 30As could be a factor. Do you think it is worth it to have the option later on or do you think it doesn't matter and if I'd want to go 6S later on, I could buy a 6S ESC then?

Other ESCs I've looked at are the DYS 20A and 30A, or favourite littlebees 20As wich are all available at multirotorparts.com. They also have an european warehouse and feature OneShot and regenerative breaking if I'm not mistaking. The DYS will no longer be carried by MRP, so the favourite littlebees would be the ESC to buy from them?
Any other brands/ESCs/shops I should consider?


I know these are a lot of questions, but I really can't wait to start building!
Thanks a lot to all of you guys helping me out, you're awesome!
When I get the parts locked in and ready, I'll document the build and post it here.

-1387

KISS ESCs are That good. They have yet to be matched. But this comes with the risks of, as you said, fires and also finicky soldering. However flyduino has stepped up their game recently and I think their new ESCs have much higher manufacturing tolerances. If you do go this route then I would go for the 30a for future proofing should you want to go for 4s.

The Favourite Littlebees are the best BLHeli is getting at moment, so I would opt for them over any other BLHeli ESC.

It is a decision for you to make, we can only outline the 2 options.

6S is currently unnecessary on a miniquad but times could change.

Cobras are a great purchase and I would opt for them over Tigers just because of price. 2300kv is good for 6045 3s and 5" 4s. The 1960kv are good for 4s 6045. the 2206 2100kv can do all of it and is a nice middle ground between the larger 2208 motors and the smaller 2204. Personally I would opt for the 2100kv because it is versatile, but the decision is up to you.

I've heard great things about the ZMR250 V2 so it should be a good option, although I think only FPV Model sell it (ships from China)

 

[1387]

Thanks for the lightening fast answer!

I think just look at my budget after having the frame and motors locked in and then decide on KISS 30As or favourite littlebees 20As. Ah lets face it, if the 30A KISSs are not reported for catching on fire, we all know what I'll buy.

I am flying 4S, so I'm not really interested in the 3S side of things, but I haven't decided on 5" or 6" yet. None of the cobras (1960, 2100 or 2300kV) are available at MRP at the moment, but I already contacted them to ask when they will be available again. I will also have a lookout for them at other online-shops.

I'm still interested in opinions about wich motors 1960/2100/2300 kV | 2204/06/08 and what prop size to go for. At the moment I'm tending towards 5", but that's just the opinion I got from youtube, without flying one or the other.

The ZMR V2 is only available at fpvmodel.com, but they offer 7 day DHL shipping. Even if I have to drive to the customs office once, I think I'll still buy this one.

Thanks again for your opinion Ocean!
-1387

 

[Ocean]

Thanks for the lightening fast answer!

I think just look at my budget after having the frame and motors locked in and then decide on KISS 30As or favourite littlebees 20As. Ah lets face it, if the 30A KISSs are not reported for catching on fire, we all know what I'll buy.

I am flying 4S, so I'm not really interested in the 3S side of things, but I haven't decided on 5" or 6" yet. None of the cobras (1960, 2100 or 2300kV) are available at MRP at the moment, but I already contacted them to ask when they will be available again. I will also have a lookout for them at other online-shops.

I'm still interested in opinions about wich motors 1960/2100/2300 kV | 2204/06/08 and what prop size to go for. At the moment I'm tending towards 5", but that's just the opinion I got from youtube, without flying one or the other.

The ZMR V2 is only available at fpvmodel.com, but they offer 7 day DHL shipping. Even if I have to drive to the customs office once, I think I'll still buy this one.

Thanks again for your opinion Ocean!
-1387

No worries.

5" tends to be faster and very agile, but you fly more on edge. A 6" quad tends to be smoother to fly.

Again this is for you to decide what you would like, if you pick one, then just make sure the frame can take the prop size!

If you are going straight to 4s then the decision should be easier, 2300kv for 5" and 1960kv for 6". Or get the 2100kvs which can do all of it very well but weigh a bit more.

If you plan to do freestyle flying then I would probably say go 5" and 2300kv, and for racing then probably the 1960kv. The 2100kv occupy a perfect middle ground between the 2 IMHO.

You have clearly done your research so this will be a great build no matter what you pick.

 

[1387]

Hi Ocean,

thanks for your reply.
I follow the forums and youtube closely when I got the time, so yeah, I'm informed but as I don't have any experience myself, I rely on other peoples opinions as I don't have the money to test it all out myself.

Am I seeing it correctly that the 2204 cobras (1960 kV) are rated to 3S, not 4S and that "everyone" is running them over spec? Just asking because I don't want to buy wrong motors, and that 3S rating threw me off a bit.

EDIT: Another point crossed my mind: How much noticable is the difference in Amp draw and battery life in comparison between 5" 2300 kV and 6" 1960kV setups? I "only" have Zippy 4S 2200mAh 40C batterys at the moment wich could sag quite a bit in voltage when punching out. I also like long flight times like everyone else, so if theres a noticeable difference in flight times, I should consider that aswell.

-1387

 

[Tritium]

Here is one more and has a lifetime warranty...even if you sell it the warranty follows it.

http://www.armattanquads.com/armattan-morphite-v2-frame-expected-back-in-stock-sept-22/

Thurmond

 

[Ocean]

I would personally not buy the armattan frame, simply because of weight.

The 5" 2300 will draw around 24A or so, the 6" will draw less, but I don't have a figure on exactly how many amps less. 1960kv will also have slightly more flight time. However I think your decision should more be about how you want the quad to handle (ie 5" v 6")

And yes everyone runs them out of spec

 

[C0d3M0nk3y]

The 5" 2300 will draw around 24A or so

If you're running bullnose props on 4S. Standard tip props will draw less.

 

[jipp]

well i can justify the quality of carbon the fpv uses.. you wont be disappointed in the quality of carbon used.. cant not comment on the PDB i bought a different one..

chris.

 

[1387]

Thank you all.

I just found out that MRP will sell the ZMR frame soon. They don't quote on wich "version" it is, because they say there are so many versions out there, there won't be just one "version 2". The did mention that it is full carbon and there will be a PDB sold seperatly. I compared pictures of the PDB they sent me with the pictures of the V1 and V2 PDBs of the ZMR V2 on fpvmodel.com, they are completely different, but that shouldn't be a problem.

So because the shop I'm probably going to buy my motors at, will be selling the frame I had in mind aswell, so I think I won't buy the armattan, but thanks for the suggestion anyway!

With the motors being used out of spec, good to hear that I understood everthing correctly.
I'll have the time to deside wether I want the 5" or 6" motors/props, because MRP will restock the cobra motors only in about 2 weeks.

Thanks again for all your recommendations! I think I have everything I need now, so that I sooner or later can start ordering, building and last but not least: crashing!

-1387

 

[1387]

Hi guys,

a little update from my project.
I'm still waiting on parts becoming available, but with the ZMR now on stock at multirotorparts, I just have to wait for the motors to be back on stock again "late september".

I already have the 30A KISS ESCs on hand. Seeing them made a question pop up in my head: Could I put the ESCs between the PDB and the bottom frame plate? It would make for a clean build I think, but they could get toasty in there... Do the 30A KISSs need the wind to cool down or should they be okay between the plates?

-1387

 

[jipp]

with KISS i would not risk the price.. i would put them on the arms for the prop wash..

however, im using sn20 DYS blhei ESC with my zmr project and will be putting them in between the rails using this riser kit. thats my hope anyhow. i want to try an get a nice clean build this time around.



it leaves a 12mm space. here is my LOS zmr 250 emax 1806 motors with emax 12a esc.. and the PDB is between the frame.. was my first build and i put the ESC on the arms because i did not have the skill to solder new wires to the emax 12a esc.. as they run down the center instead of the end on most common esc.

same kit 12mm, with CC3D PDB between the rails..



was just playing around with some kind of landing gear for it... i ended up not using the heli landing skid.. looked funny.

chris.

 

[1387]

Hi, thanks for your reply.

Your quad looks really nice!
Does the riser kit harm the strength of the arm connection? I would think that on a hard hit, the risers would break and the arm would come lose? I could be wrong though, but interesting to hear from your experience!

You may be right, but I would've liked the additional protection for the ESCs inside the frame. They should be fine on the arms though.

Another question popped up as I saw the KISS ESCs:
Is it best practice to solder the ground wire onto the ESC to connect it to the FCB or should I just connect the signal, as the ESC and FCB already have a common ground from the battery?
I've heard that connecting ground at multiple places could cause a "ground loop" of some sorts and that this should be avoided. Other people said that it's safer to solder the ground on the ESC aswell.

-1387