Am I not normal??

[Adui]

I'm watching the FT X29 video and something he said makes me wonder. Why is aileron bank and yank considered advanced??? I learned to fly for the first time with nitro planes and SPAD construction (Corroplast) my go-to was a bank and yank, and I rarely used a rudder.

Fast forward to 13 years out of the hobby and my only plane in my return is a cheap little micro p51 that I only really figured out how to fly when I slowed it down and started using the rudder to turn instead of rolling and pulling... Rudder turns didn't work well with my early nitro planes. Aileron and elevator turns only work with this little foamy if I am VERY careful... Whodathunk

 

[JasonK]

if I was to theorize - planes designed for elevator/rudder have more dihedral/polyhedral then craft that are flown 'bank-n-yank', therefore they have more self righting behavior [IE dead stick - way more likely to end up in level flight].

 

[Draftman1]

Back in the day, most guys started on a 3 channel ( rudder, elevator, throttle. Then they would advance to 4 channel, by adding ailerons.

If you really think about it, that’s really not a nessesary practice.

Some people just never delved into crank and bank.

 

[Bricks]

More planes have been crashed due to not using rudder especially when landing. When landing your airspeed is down and people that have not learned to use rudder to correct direction at these slower speeds and instead use the ailerons to correct puts them into a bad situation for a tip stall, seen it way to many times.

If you really pay attention not using rudder for a coordinated turn the tail of the plane will almost always wash out the tail skids around the turn instead of following the motor.

Best way to learn rudder control is start 3D flying if you cannot use rudder properly 3D flying will never happen.

 

[MrClean]

More planes have been crashed due to not using rudder

Especially when we were flying SPADs! Didn't have rudder on the combat planes but he went down in flames!!!! I was an Animal, Baby! Very grrrrrr.

Saying Advanced is just a holdover from the beginning of RC and the transition from free flight. Old systems were big and bulky.....
{}{} We take this moment to give you History of Remote Control! To be brutally Honest, RC airplanes predate Control Line though not Free Flight. I was watching a film of Gentlemen and Boys flying FF airplanes in 1913 right before the war. Winding Rubber motors in their 3 piece suits no less. Some of the Boys were in knee pants of course. What a culture shock. In WWI however, they developed Remote Controlled Target Drones for Anti Aircraft training. They also developed a cruise missle, the Kettering Aerial Torpedo "The Bug" They'd launch that thing and after a set period it would shut off it's motor, lose the wings and become a 180 pound bomb. The Target though was controlled through electrical pulses that were the forerunner of the Escapements used in early RC.{}{} Generally, you had one control so you used rudder. The motor wasn't throttled. You'd hit your button, the rudder would kick over and you'd turn. Later, you could hit your button and depending on the amount of pushes you got your control. It was messy but worked. The First RC pattern champion was an Astro Hog here in America. You held in Rudder control from high up, let it come in a downward spiral then let go. The increased airspeed and neutral control would make the plane pull up over an complete a loop. So Rudder was 1 channel. Rudder and Elevator, 2 channels. Throttle, oh boy were we cooking with gas now. (yes, still gas ignition). Finally Aileron. Aileron doesn't work so well with large amounts of Dihedral, you seem to have noticed, so you needed less natural stability and had to be more active, more Advanced in your control of the aircraft. But Rudder becomes VERY active with more Dihedral. My Ultra Spad Stick in my Avatar has too much Dihedral and really only rolls well with Co-ordinated (aileron and rudder) turns. Frankly, it rolls pretty good just with rudder. It's a fantastic touch n go machine and very easy to fly. So saying that Advanced control is really anything that includes Ailerons. Anything less then Rudder/Elevator well, that's just Free Flight in most peoples view.
Depending on the design of the plane, the amount of Dihedral and the placement of the wing, aircraft will work just fine with or without all controls. If they've been crashed because the pilot wasn't flying with his rudder, well then it was setup to use Rudder as well. It does provide more control on wheeled landings BUT as you know, those of us who have chucked their planes and listened to the string and streamer whip by our ears land quite easily enough with only a vertical stab.
I do recomend using all the controls you have though, makes those sloppy, worthless Cubs fly so much better. Woudn't get caught in one but those over powered, lower AR winged yellow things do fly better with co-ordinated controls.
Remember, No Cuts, No Glory.

 

[Draftman1]

Sure. For 3d flying and general rc flying, an active rider is pretty much mandatory, for a combat plane, a rudder servo is a waste and adds extra weight and problems, it’s just not needed or desired.

If we were flying full scale, we need the rudder.
Coordinated turns, rudder and ailerons used together is extremely important, a non coordinated turn can end in disaster.
But in rc, we don’t feel the non coordinated turn and we can’t tell visually if we are in a slip or skid

 

[CappyAmeric]

Sure. For 3d flying and general rc flying, an active rider is pretty much mandatory, for a combat plane, a rudder servo is a waste and adds extra weight and problems, it’s just not needed or desired.

If we were flying full scale, we need the rudder.
Coordinated turns, rudder and ailerons used together is extremely important, a non coordinated turn can end in disaster.
But in rc, we don’t feel the non coordinated turn and we can’t tell visually if we are in a slip or skid

LOL, it must be the years waiting for takeoff and watching landing planes crab and then slip, but seeing an R/C plane sag in an uncoordinated turn makes me immediately cringe.

Differential thrust, sure leaving off, but otherwise spend the $6 and put in a rudder servo. An airplane is an airplane, aerodynamics are still important.

 

[Piotrsko]

WHERE exactly does one put the rudder in a combat kitten Ukie conversion? Skids on aileron turns mean that you didn't set up the differential correctly. Btw how many birds have rudders? Can you say B2? Howsabout Prandtl? Beech bonanza?

Back in the early day, the kits and plans available were generally freeflight and it's way easier to build rudder and elevator replacements as opposed to redesign the wing for ailerons, even scab ons and servos were measured in multiple inches. Go looky at my 1960 reed radio pictures

 

[CappyAmeric]

Of course birds have "rudders," just like V tail Bonazas do. The B-2 and B-21 use computer augmentation with aileron/spoiler interaction to achieve yaw control and thus coordination. The purpose of a rudder is yaw control. Yaw control does not need to be from a vertical tab.

What was the difference between the Wright Glider, and the Wright Flyer beside not having an engine? Rudders - because the brothers rightly discovered by watching birds that it wasn't just warping the wings that controlled direction, but the use of tail feathers (and their head movement) for yaw control.

There are 3 axis for flight, yaw control is an important part of controlled flight.

 

[MrClean]

We are generally so overpowered and with larger then scale rudders that they'll power through an un-coordinated turn. I agree we should fly with rudders but I also have a ton of aileron/elevator ships that get along just fine without. Just depends on what you're doing. And besides, nothing more satisfying then watching someone pull their cub up into a rather steep uncoordinated turn and watching it spin in. Just enough power to get them to the scene of the crash. babypoop yella planes.

 

[mastermalpass]

I have an odd history with rudders. My Su-34 V4 was fine elevons-only, but I eventually activated the rudders in order to learn how to use them. The pre-scored lines I put on the vertical stabs in accordance with the plans, had the rudders way too big and they rolled the plane as much as they yawed it.

Next I made my own Tiger Moth which was overweight and overstable with ailerons too weak. The rudder was required to turn it, but the throws were too high and combined with the weight, it was an asymmetric stall nightmare, which is how it crashed twice.

Couple years on from that one, I retired the Su-34 V4 and made the Su-35 V5. This time the rudders were half the depth that they were on the 34. They still roll the aircraft a lot though and yawing at all is a careful balancing act with the 4x4 aileron-elevon roll mix. Once again, the Su-35 is a great bank-and-yank design.

Finally, I made a plane where the rudder is appreciated; my BipePipe Pro, the intended successor to the BipePipe, is a bit overstable and on its maiden, the ailerons were once again under powered making the rudder a necessity. But even after I upped the deflection on the ailerons to where it could bank and yank, it would skid and slip making coordinated turns simply desirable. Today, I maidened the sig kadet; a big top wing tail-dragger that, like the BipePipePro, can bank and yank but you just want to coordinate turns 'cause things feel risky when you're in a bank and your tail is just hanging low like that.

What I've noticed about these 'coordinated-turner' models is that they both have a wing that's up near or above the centre level of the rudder, whereas the parkjets had their wings below their rudders entirely. I'm not sure it's that, the swept wings or a mix of both, that makes the top wings drop their tail in a bank while the parkjets drop their nose in a bank.

 

[Bricks]

If you can learn to do flat turns rudder with opposite ailerons you will have the cat by the tail, some planes are easier then others, some will never be perfectly flat or correct. Some designs do not have enough rudder authority to get a flat turn.

 

[MrClean]

Cat by the tail? What a horrible thing. You go grabbing my cat by the tail she'll show you she's actually a cross of TeddyBear and Cactus AND not as much fun to play with as you thought. I live in her house and pay her bills. Well, to be more correct I live in her house with my wife who pays the bills. Somebody is a Pensioner. Make that a little p.

 

[L Edge]

I'm watching the FT X29 video and something he said makes me wonder. Why is aileron bank and yank considered advanced??? I learned to fly for the first time with nitro planes and SPAD construction (Corroplast) my go-to was a bank and yank, and I rarely used a rudder.

Fast forward to 13 years out of the hobby and my only plane in my return is a cheap little micro p51 that I only really figured out how to fly when I slowed it down and started using the rudder to turn instead of rolling and pulling... Rudder turns didn't work well with my early nitro planes. Aileron and elevator turns only work with this little foamy if I am VERY careful... Whodathunk

You mentioned that you began to understand using the rudder. Keep going. Using rudder will allow you to fly in the higher winds, engage with crosswind landings why others sit by the wayside. Movable rudder is also needed in tail wheel planes getting the rear wheel off and up speed to V1.

Simply put, you can fly upright, learning how to fly inverted(rudder needed when you do left and right tight turns) and do knife edges both directions will allow you to do any maneuver. The trick to flying a foamy or balsa bipe up or inverted is plenty of movable rudder. So keep practicing. Heck, if the rudder is not movable on my foamy's, I add one.

 

[MrClean]

yawn, we get it, you're an uber pilot/ We're all not worthy of your brilliance. Well I've got 32 chickens so there. Meanwhile, it is good to use your rudder, especially if you have one. Depends on the design you're plane is and what its purpose is. Oh, do you want to turn it into a helicopter and hang out over the runway, irritating everyone else that maybe want to get up or down from the pattern? You'll really need one then. How about one of those excellant knife edge passes down the center of the runway, you know, 20 feet from all the other pilots on the flight line. Maybe back that stuff out Past the other side of the runway where one oops won't kill somebody. But, I know a whole bunch of people that use rudder I don't really want to be in the air at the same time.
And, my chickens aren't firing on all cylinders today, so far. Had 7 eggs by this time yesterday, 15 at the end. Two days in a row. However, the next three days will be rainy and darker, probably cut down on production then. I don't expect this many eggs all the time but spring is coming and some of them get carried away.

 

[mastermalpass]

yawn, we get it, you're an uber pilot/ We're all not worthy of your brilliance. Well I've got 32 chickens so there. Meanwhile, it is good to use your rudder, especially if you have one. Depends on the design you're plane is and what its purpose is. Oh, do you want to turn it into a helicopter and hang out over the runway, irritating everyone else that maybe want to get up or down from the pattern? You'll really need one then. How about one of those excellant knife edge passes down the center of the runway, you know, 20 feet from all the other pilots on the flight line. Maybe back that stuff out Past the other side of the runway where one oops won't kill somebody. But, I know a whole bunch of people that use rudder I don't really want to be in the air at the same time.
And, my chickens aren't firing on all cylinders today, so far. Had 7 eggs by this time yesterday, 15 at the end. Two days in a row. However, the next three days will be rainy and darker, probably cut down on production then. I don't expect this many eggs all the time but spring is coming and some of them get carried away.

 

[Adui]

All good responses and thank you. I guess I wasn't clear. I RARELY used my rudder back then as I learned to fly. I did near the end of that go start using it to crab in landings just to see if I could, or to coordinate turns because someone at the field one day who was a full sized pilot said something about that. I guess I was just trying to say I always saw the use of the rudder as a more advanced form of flying RC whereas in the beginning I had all I could handle flying elevator and aileron.

 

[mastermalpass]

So yesterday, I was maddening my new RCP MiG-29 in some pretty windy conditions. Tested the rudder and reiterated my point that for parkjets, the rudder is better at rolling the plane than yawing it, then not one minute later, the wind caught it in a certain way and all of a sudden those rudders were a god send! Took back everything I said. 😂

It's not that the Parkjet isn't a fine bank-and-yank and it probably had a lot to do with how I was flying over a hillside covered in trees and bushes which made me want to go a little slower and maintain a bit of a positive angle of attack, but since this thread got me thinking about it, when I have an active rudder I am often leaning on it to 'correct' the attitude of the plane. I was definitely using it quite a bit with my Su-26 that seemed to want to fly sideways everywhere (though that wasn't enough to save it).

When I try to go into a maneuvre with them, I still find them awkward, but if I want to just resist a dropping tail or get a bit more control in a high alpha, I don't really have to think so hard about them.

 

[MrClean]

The amount you add varies plane for plane. With the rudders over the wings CG you are adding a force above it and that's where the roll comes from, along with any dihedrahl and sweep back the wing has. It's all a balancing act AND some of it is just you gotta put it somewhere and down below the slidy bits is not really an option. Whats really bad is when you get adverse yaw with your rudder. You put in right rudder and the wing rolls to the left. Oopsies. A little dihedral will take care of that. Old school pattern guys would take their new plane out and one of the tests were to use the rudder and see if there was yaw or adverse yaw with their rudder input. Bring the plane down, saw the wing in half mostly depending on whether they were going for dihedral or anhedra, Glass it at the field and try again. They get the angle right they would then mark their notes and if the wing was usable, they'd finish it. Least thats what I read in Flying Models I think, 20-30 years ago. That really puts a petina on the use of the phrase "Old School Pattern Guys" as that's how it was printed in the mag, then.
And what's this throwing me under the buss after I've been sticking up with all you guys who said, ehhh, I flys fine without it? Now I'm taken a bullet for trying to make y'all feel good about it. Are MY turns co-ordinated? I think so. I've caught my left thumb leaned over on my wings before. Had a rudder on the one above, wasn't effective and I didn't need the weight behind the CG SO doesn't explain the inputs other then they're probably fairly muscle memory by now. It's ok. Me Big Shoulders, I'll carry that weight. And when you fall victim to one of those, ergggg, Yellow things that are more sailplane then airplane, use the rudder, alot. It'll safe you either a rebuild or a full trashbag.

 

[Bricks]

Cat by the tail? What a horrible thing. You go grabbing my cat by the tail she'll show you she's actually a cross of TeddyBear and Cactus AND not as much fun to play with as you thought. I live in her house and pay her bills. Well, to be more correct I live in her house with my wife who pays the bills. Somebody is a Pensioner. Make that a little p.

All good points that is exactly why i said cat by the tail it`s all about taking control and keeping it.