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Neanderthals and Failsafe

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#1
Just venting a little steam here!

I religiously set and use failsafe though I prefer to use a setup akin to Spektrum's Smart Safe. Using such a setup I have zero issues and the safe radio operation is a great improvement especially in the area of prop strikes and the removing the possibility of ever suffering an inadvertent motor start.

I have studied the issue of Failsafe and have found that the method of selecting to set Failsafe or Smart Safe is an area of serious user confusion and that is when using genuine receivers but then add the cheap non-Spektrum receivers and the setting of Failsafe becomes a lottery! To me an improperly set Failsafe is a real safety issue.

When trying to use Smart Safe setup I hit the club rules wall and now cannot undertake any further competency testing simply because I refuse to use the club safe handling techniques that actually mask improperly set Failsafe. Mind you I am a club appointed flight instructor - go figure!

Now here is the serious part, the national model associations endorse the rules written by the Neanderthal old school and technically illiterate club committee members even though they are in breach of the Federal regulations. I am still waiting on the federal regulator to get back to me with their ruling but until them I may be earth bound and possibly permanently!

Currently the regulations require me to operate my equipment in the safest possible manner regardless of the club rules:unsure: but the club refuse to allow anything not in their rules!:eek: Mind you the Spektrum manual contradicts itself and is agrees with the safety of my setup but even that is not acceptable proof to the club NAZI elite:mad:.

With the rules and setups as found in the club, fly away models and possibly injurious crashes, (including fatalities), are a distinct possibility!o_O:eek:

I believe that the safest possible operation is our moral and legal responsibility!

Am I wrong?:confused:

Have fun!
 

Piotrsko

Well-known member
#2
AAAAND,the reason I am generally considered anti social or subversive: just because you have authority doesn't mean you are correct. (ANOTHER main reason for not joining clubs anymore)

I would set the units up as to be the safer method, but plead stupidity when caught. However I wouldn't care if they revoked my membership while YMMV.

GODSPEED @Hai-Lee
 

cranialrectosis

Well-Known Member
Mentor
#3
Good governance comes from consent. Rule compliance (authority) by coercion is tyranny.

"Such a principle, stripped of all disguise, is surely the mere primitive doctrine that might is right." -George (Bertie) VI

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" -US Declaration of Independence


At the end of the day, the pilot is responsible whether we are talking guns, cars, planes or just life in general.

Rules or no rules, if you harm someone you will have to live with that. If you fail to act and someone is harmed, you have to live with that too. If someone has died because of you, 3AM is an ugly hour whether or not you were following orders.

IMO, there is no price too high to be able to live with yourself.


"But we can only do the right as we see the right and reverently commit our cause to God." -George (Bertie) VI

From where I am sitting, @Piotrsko and @Hai-Lee you guys ARE good company. :)
 

Aireal Anarchist

Well-known member
#4
I ran into similar issues at my local airstrip, and we have a couple club officers that have control for the first time in their lives it seems and are nazi like, I mean they are just rude barking rules at anyone they can.... I see new members reluctant to fly if any members are at the field they dont want to be screamed at. Im frowned upon over FPV

So I offered free FB planes and electronics to any local kids that want to work on building a "free use airstrip" on my property, I have an island I live on on the columbia river, its 1 mile long 1/4 mile wide and in the center there is a 1/4 mile x 1/8 mile grassland with 5 ft tall canary grass BUT its surrounded by 300-400ft of thick primordial swamp growth & everything has THORNS....we spent a few days clearing a path from my house to the field, I ran a chainsaw the kids had weedeaters and hedge trimmers, I have been building planes for the kids during lockdown and getting them all trimmed out and ready .....soon as the lockdown is over they are coming over for a big fly party & barbecue

Man we are real rustic! pretty much just belly landing planes for now in fluffy waist high dried last years grass, till i can get the path wide enough to get my tractor out there but that wont happen this year, its just too big a job getting a big enough pathway out there thru that thick cottonwood barrier

so anyways I relish in being the anti social & subversive Aireal Anarchist
airstrip.jpg
 
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b-29er

Well-known member
#5
We're talking the smartsafe functionality on ESCs that makes sure the transmitter is on before the receiver and drops throttle to 0 if signal is lost, right?
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#6
I am not sure exactly what Hai-Lee is talking about, is it the way you can setup fail safe either hold last position or preset failsafe. In hold failsafe when signal is lost throttle goes to zero and control surfaces hold last position, where preset failsafe can be set to hold any values of throttle and all control surfaces.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#7
We're talking the smartsafe functionality on ESCs that makes sure the transmitter is on before the receiver and drops throttle to 0 if signal is lost, right?
@b-29er , @Bricks . Smart safe is a failsafe setting programmed into the Rx on binding which is the outputs from the Rx to the ESC and servos that you require to be set in the case of a loss of transmitted signal. Smart Safe actually just sets the throttle to zero and leaves the control surfaces where they were at the time the signal was lost. It means that if you loose control the motor is cut and the plane lands or crashes in a short time.
If for any reason the Failsafe is set to have the motor go to full throttle, (more common than you might believe) the plane can go to full throttle and become an unguided missile. It might crash almost immediately OR it could travel a considerable distance before crashing into a populated area.

Whilst Failsafe setup and operation are specifically an issue of public safety there is a feature of Smart Safety that I use religiously. With Smart Safe properly configured and tested it is possible to power up the model before the transmitter and to turn off the transmitter before the receiver without the risk of having an inadvertent motor start thereby removing transmitter mishandling as a source of motor activation and eliminate the possibilities of a prop strike. Spektrum themselves include a description of Smart Safe as being totally safe in handling an electric powered model with the transmitter turned off.

Whilst I could blindly conform like just another Zombie member of the club, the issue does not just involve me, (and actually such behaviour is not normally a feature of my basic nature - regardless of personal cost). I am a Vet and a life member of our national veterans association. A while ago I started developing a method or control modification to allow amputees, (Veterans) to learn to fly RC model aircraft. Single handed operation of a model by an amputee requires that the model itself CANNOT suffer from an inadvertent motor start whilst the amputee is accessing the model to fit or remove the flight battery! This training, (through the national Vets assoc), was to be free and include the supply of a FB model as the Vets first model after competency was achieved. I say "was" because this is all now PAUSED until the rules are updated or it will be cancelled if the rules are unable to be changed.

A serious prop strike on an amputee could remove their independence and effectively make them an invalide possibly permanently! The club Nazis have only ever defended themselves and their dictatorial, (and illegal), rules, and their self assessed supreme level of knowledge. I refuse to unknowingly teach my students, amputee of not, unsafe model handling and setup techniques. Also it is not fair to them to teach them how to use their model safely and if doing so they are unable to be adjudged as being competent.

The battle/war will continue until I win or I die!

Have fun!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#8
I ran into similar issues at my local airstrip, and we have a couple club officers that have control for the first time in their lives it seems and are nazi like, I mean they are just rude barking rules at anyone they can.... I see new members reluctant to fly if any members are at the field they dont want to be screamed at. Im frowned upon over FPV

So I offered free FB planes and electronics to any local kids that want to work on building a "free use airstrip" on my property, I have an island I live on on the columbia river, its 1 mile long 1/4 mile wide and in the center there is a 1/4 mile x 1/8 mile grassland with 5 ft tall canary grass BUT its surrounded by 300-400ft of thick primordial swamp growth & everything has THORNS....we spent a few days clearing a path from my house to the field, I ran a chainsaw the kids had weedeaters and hedge trimmers, I have been building planes for the kids during lockdown and getting them all trimmed out and ready .....soon as the lockdown is over they are coming over for a big fly party & barbecue

Man we are real rustic! pretty much just belly landing planes for now in fluffy waist high dried last years grass, till i can get the path wide enough to get my tractor out there but that wont happen this year, its just too big a job getting a big enough pathway out there thru that thick cottonwood barrier

so anyways I relish in being the anti social & subversive Aireal Anarchist View attachment 167448
The members avoiding the Nazi types seems to be a common thing as here the club split a year or so ago and now there is a growing number of the remaining and new members that refuse to fly when the main Nazi is present and if possible they will use the alternate field if they know where the Nazi will be flying!

Our prime Nazi is actually a loud and aggressive bully type. He thinks that my silence is surrender when he is unloading on me, or others, (including children), but he is wrong, (Oh so wrong). During his tirades all i can think of is Knees, Nuts or Neck as the initial strike point should he get too close or appear to be about to throw a fist in my general direction or towards a child, (teenage), club member! Sadly he must strike first to justify my actions and he so far he has restrained himself but he is not against throwing things around in a display that reminds me of a Chimpanzee doing its dominance display!

Have fun!
 

Piotrsko

Well-known member
#9
@Hai-Lee. If the battle continues until you win, I pity the adversary.
I believe you are too stubborn to accede by merely expiring.

So the question becomes, how long will this take? My money says local spring season when your new crop of learners hits. No need to proffer tricks and techniques, would be like teaching a Buddha to meditate.

I will suggest the groin as primary. Less marks, gets the attention really fast, mostly left unguarded and most won't admit a strike was successful.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#10
@Hai-Lee. If the battle continues until you win, I pity the adversary.
I believe you are too stubborn to accede by merely expiring.

So the question becomes, how long will this take? My money says local spring season when your new crop of learners hits. No need to proffer tricks and techniques, would be like teaching a Buddha to meditate.

I will suggest the groin as primary. Less marks, gets the attention really fast, mostly left unguarded and most won't admit a strike was successful.
Thank you, you comments made me laugh but you are definitely correct!

My father, also a Vet, taught me that if you can't remove the enemy from the rock remove the rock from the enemy!

To that end I have already raised the matter directly with the federal regulators seeking specific permission to use the safer operation methods. In the meantime I am contacting the federal minister seeking an injunction against ALL model flying until the federal regulator makes the ruling! During a lockdown this will just have the ability of shaking their pedestals!

I have also contacted a couple of the radio equipment manufacturers to clarify what legal liability they accept in relation to the operation of their equipment!

I am contacting the veterans affairs department/minister in relation to the effective banning of amputee veterans!
Later if required I will raise the matter directly with the owners of the local flying fields about their legal liabilities/risks and then the insurance underwriters for the national associations insurance in relation to increased risk and potential liabilities as well as technically illegal model operating rules.
Finally there is the national media, (they love a good horror story)!

This battle has just started and has a long way to go!

Have fun!
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#11
I have not run across a true Spektrum or Lemon receiver that does not do this goes to 0 throttle buy either plugging the plane first or transmitter on or off. I have run across some ESC`s if end points are not set in the transmitter correctly will start the motor with just plugging in the plane it is usually just at low throttle never more then what I consider a fast idle..
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#12
I have not run across a true Spektrum or Lemon receiver that does not do this goes to 0 throttle buy either plugging the plane first or transmitter on or off. I have run across some ESC`s if end points are not set in the transmitter correctly will start the motor with just plugging in the plane it is usually just at low throttle never more then what I consider a fast idle..
You are correct! Throttle calibration can be an issue but that is easily fixed when the radio is first installed. The issue is that just because your statements are correct and that such handling is safe, and declared as being safe by Spektrum themselves), does not mean that it is permitted! Sadly some Neanderthals do not either set Failsafe or know how to do it properly. It is because of those who cannot set failsafe properly that the rules require truly safe setup for safe model handling to be banned even though poorly set failsafe can cause a long range fly away!:rolleyes:
 

Namactual

Well-known member
#13
I have experienced this exact issue with a genuine Bind and Fly UMX and DX6e. At the time I had no idea what was wrong, but during flight the UMX would just stop responding and after it hit the ground, the prop was still spinning. It started to get more and more frequent to the point it would lock up as I was taxiing.

Long story short, the RX in the UMX had a bad antenna. I just did not understand why the prop kept spinning at the time of signal loss.:unsure:

This explains it.
 
#15
Am I understanding this correctly, that the club rules state the TX must be transmitting at all times then the receiver is powered up? I guess that was a good rule back in the days when people were using home-built analog radios.

What about range checks? Can you possibly put the TX into range check mode and walk it back until it fails (or "inadvertently" turn off the TX while performing a "range check")?

Generally I find that if people aren't bright enough to understand an explanation of what I'm doing, it's best to just not involve them.
 

Hondo76251

Well-known member
#16
Meh, its just a matter of time before all planes are required to have some sort of flight controller, pre programmed of course, so that if you do anything wrong it will fly itself to the local authorities and tattle on you... Seems, as a society in general, we've lost any sort of sense of what freedom is and the personal responsibility that goes with it...
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#17
Meh, its just a matter of time before all planes are required to have some sort of flight controller, pre programmed of course, so that if you do anything wrong it will fly itself to the local authorities and tattle on you... Seems, as a society in general, we've lost any sort of sense of what freedom is and the personal responsibility that goes with it...
Well said!
 

messyhead

Well-known member
#18
I'm new to this, and naively hadn't thought of, or heard about fail safe. But I did pick up a tip to program a switch as throttle hold set to 0, so the motor can't be started with the switch on.

I hope you're successful with your case.

I'm now going to go and look into this more, and see what my esc does. Thanks for making me aware of it.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#19
I'm new to this, and naively hadn't thought of, or heard about fail safe. But I did pick up a tip to program a switch as throttle hold set to 0, so the motor can't be started with the switch on.

I hope you're successful with your case.

I'm now going to go and look into this more, and see what my esc does. Thanks for making me aware of it.
I have a document that I raised for the federal regulator describing how the ESC and Rx Failsafe work to make model handling safer if you think it might be a source of relevant information on the subject!

Have fun!
 

messyhead

Well-known member
#20
I have a document that I raised for the federal regulator describing how the ESC and Rx Failsafe work to make model handling safer if you think it might be a source of relevant information on the subject!

Have fun!
Yeah, that would be useful, thanks! I'll pm my email address.