Old Fogey, first flight issues

[JUSS10]

So I built an Old Fogey last night to see if that would help me get the hang of flying a little better. I tried the nutball and found that a little too twichy for me. I've also built the FT Flyer which seems better but I saw the Old Fogey and how slow it flies and thought it would be a good one to try. I redrew the plans in CAD so I could cut it all on the laser at work. It seemed to go together fine. I moved the servos back as i only had 12" long wire for the linkages. I knew this would throw off the CG but I mounted the battery all the way forward and it balanced.

From all the videos I saw, it seemed like a really stable plane but once we launched it was all over the place (I wasn't flying, a friend was who is quite a good pilot) He was really struggling with it. He finally just put it down and we set it aside.

it seemed like it was getting in to an oscillating tip stall of sorts. Could this have something to do with the thrust angle? the power pod seems to be angled down quite a bit. I used the holes that were in the file and it seemed to line up just fine with the power pod but it was just all over the place.

There was a slight wind but nothing crazy. I'm running a hextronics 24g motor with an 8060 prop.

I was hoping this would be a fun easy going flyer so I'm hoping you all can help me figure out what I did wrong!

Justin

 

[ttprigg]

Justin:
I would bet that it is a little tail heavy- In my experience they fly great once they are balanced out. I little nose heavy and air over the wings...

 

[AkimboGlueGuns]

Yup, the battery mounts almost fully forward when the servos are mounted normally. I am usually against putting any lead in an airplane, but if you don't have any extensions for your servos, lead might be your next best option.

 

[JUSS10]

Thats what I was afraid off. with a 500mA it wasn't close. with a 1000 it seemed level but maybe I'll throw some washer in the nose to tip it down a hair. I may just have to build it the right way, just didn't have anything on hand to make long linkages.

I'll post an update to this thread and see how it goes. Its cold and snowy here so to find a day that isn't windy or snowing can be a bit tough.

Thanks!

Justin

 

[rbeard2]

watch those throws too

Have you had a chance to get out there with the re-balanced Old Fogey? I have had a similar issue with mine as well in that when flying it is REALLY twitchy on the controls. BUT, I have fiddled around a bit with mine and here's what I figured out.

The stock control throws really need about 30% expo to make smooth rudder turns. My first radio in my Fogey was the El Cheapo HK 6 channel that came in the Bixler 2 combo and wow! Control was like literally flipping a light switch! I had to basically pop the rudder and elevator a bit at a time to get it to go around. My first fix was to reduce the stock control throws down to minimum - first hole on both control horn and servo arm! Now I could fumble the sticks a bit more and not toss the Fogey around like frog in a blender. The second and more successful thing I did was upgrade my trans to a more advanced 6ch complete with - expo control. I then returned my linkage to it's original position and the plane smoothed out even more. I love the Old Fogey and have recently built one out of sturdier Elmers brand Foam board - haven't flown it yet but soon Grasshopper . . . soon!

 

[JUSS10]

Not yet. Maybe some time later this weekend. I have a radio that can control all that and I already had 30% expo dialed in. I think I'll make it a tad nose heavy and see how that goes at first.

Justin

 

[jhitesma]

I'd guess CG as well. On mine with a 3S 500mah built stock I have to put the pack all the way up front and still end up tossing a few coins or bolts (or even rocks if I don't have anything else handy!) up there with a rubber band to get it balanced. With your servos moved back you're probably considerably more tail heavy than you think.

Once balanced well mine flies super gentle and is a nice relaxing plane to start and finish flying sessions with

 

[Winglet]

Old Fogey

Mine never did fly very well. I balanced mine correctly. Used minimal controls. It kinda had a little sweet spot where it would fly decently at a very specific slow speed but it is a miserable flying airplane in my opinion.

 

[rcspaceflight]

Define "oscillating tip shall". When I hear that phrase I picture the plane rocking on it's roll axis. Maybe I'm interrupting that wrong. But if it is it might have too much polyhedral. Or the vertical stabilizer isn't doing it's job. I've heard of a lot of people having an issue with the Old Fogey and moving up the rudder fixes any rocking on the wings from side to side.

The only FT Old Fogey I made I moved the tail all the way up. I just cut the back part of the fuselage plans off and flipped it around.

 

[Winglet]

Maybe that is the cure? There is something basically wrong with the original design. I think it is in the wing? I saw somewhere where someone built a more standard dihedral not polyhedral wing and it flew fine. I might give that a try sometime?

 

[rcspaceflight]

Lately I've been living by the rule that not enough polyhedral/dihedral is better than too much.

 

[mjmccarron]

The FT Old Fogey was my first foam board plane. I too had a devil of a time getting it to fly decently. Never really did although I got it to fly somewhat. It's a flukey design. The Speedster is the same wing but doesn't have any of the same bad habits. The tall fuselage and low tail combined with the polyhedral wing make it very speed sensitive. At certain speeds the tail is blanked by the fuselage causing odd oscillations and poor control response. I finally got mine to fly fair by moving the CG forward to the point of having to keep power on during landing and keeping the speed in the "sweet spot". I've been flying RC for 36 years and have had dozens of planes. The Old Fogey was the second worst flying plane I've had. The FT Delta was the worst. By the time I got that critter to fly I was so sick of it I flew one complete battery on it then stripped it down and gave it to my 3YO grandson to play with. The Fogey is in the rafters of my basement probably will never fly again. Then again, I'm building a 50% variant of it in 1/8 depron. I must be nuts! We'll see how it goes. Don't give up. Just try something different. If you have a bit of flight time you might try the Bloody Wonder. It's a bit squirrely for a beginner but way fun! The FT22 is a bit more relaxed but doesn't fly as well. Anyway, the whole point of all of this is to have fun!
Clear skies and calm winds,
Mike

 

[roversgonemad]

I guess my experience with the fogey is a bit different... While it will rock a bit, with low throws, it's a pretty gentle bird. I built one a few years ago when it was first out, and it's the plane that got me back into the hobby after almost a 30 year hiatus, and I never did really learn to fly the first time around. I still keep a fogey in the hangar and fly it with an 1100kV 370 size motor and 1000 mAh 2S. Built per the instructions and the battery has to be quite a ways back in the fuse to have balanced. It's not good on really windy days, but anything under 10mph and it's pretty fun. Maybe you do have too much angle on the tips?? The control throws are small! Rudder authority isn't super, but not dismal either. I'd check CG again. And maybe build a second wing with a little less angle on the tips. I know there are a lot that are not fogey fans, but I think it's a good plane.

 

[JUSS10]

The Polyhedral may be the issue. I had build the mini speedster and they had a polyhedral gauge to set the wing tip height but they never showed that in the build video. The build of this plane as a whole seemed a little lacking in the video. Maybe I'll cut it out again and see if that fixes the flight with less polyhedral. Maybe the Old Speedster has a wing gauge in the plans or better info in the build video if it is indeed the same wing?

Glad to hear I'm not the only with an issue.

I just started flying and got pretty good with the FT flyer. I think I may try the bloody Wonder, Baby Blender, or FT-22.

Thanks for all the help and input!

 

[rcspaceflight]

If you don't mind making a non FT plane, I like to think that the One Sheet Swappable Trainer I designed is a great next step from the FT Flyer. It uses the same tail, but has a polyhedral wing more like the FT Old Fogey. It still has it's issues. I always flew mine heavy and over powered which makes it a lot of fun. But I think it would be fine light. The only real weak point in the design is the part of the fuselage without a bottom. That tends to bend/break in a hard crash.

Here is more video of my One Sheet Swappable Trainer from the perspective of the plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARrVfDyJaO0

Just a suggestion.

 

[Gryf]

I also added weight to the nose of my Fogey, along with mounting the 500mAH battery even with the firewall. But then, I had also installed the servos near the tail, so tinkering with the CG was probably to be expected.

But I think the biggest improvement was extending the fin. See the pic below... the fuselage is so tall and slab-sided, that (in my opinion anyway), it's very susceptible to crosswinds. The taller fin helped a lot, and really cleaned up the tracking. The Fogey was really relaxing to fly after that. I found that I spent more time just flying it, and less time reacting to nutsy handling.

Gryf

 

[apnewton]

I had problems getting the motor version to fly but as a slope soarer it really works.
I ditched the motor and extended the nose to get the CG right. Swiss cheesed it also to reduce weight.

 

[JUSS10]

That's so awesome! Any more info on that slope soarer? I live near Lake Michigan and it's pretty windy this time of year. May have to try that off a dune near the lakeshore. Would love to see some pics of it!

 

[apnewton]

It's just an overweight Old Fogey with no motor. Unless you mean the other one on the ground?

 

[JUSS10]

I guess, like the details of the holes. was there a certain reason for placement? Are the holes all the way through or did you cover the holes somehow afterward? Just curious.

Justin