Smallest Prop to Wingspan Ratio?!

FieldRC

Member
Hello guys,
I have a 28 mm Turnigy CCW drone motor and 3052 3-blade prop running on 3s. It has pretty insane thrust. My question is, for the prop (actual diameter 2ish inches), can I make a wider wingspan, like 20in? (Wing loading is <5oz/ft^2) I know that overpropping can create some nasty torque effects, are there some similarly bad effects for too small prop diameter to wingspan ratio?
Thanks.
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
EDFs are basically really small 'prop' sizes compared to what they normally fly, you end up needing really high KV to get enough thrust.

I used a 3035 3bladed prop for one of my Build-ruary planes with a 24in wing
https://forum.flitetest.com/index.p...uild-skill-4-pilot-skill-3.66409/#post-637312

I also got that to work ok with the FT Wonder Glider which has a 28" wing span.

So it really comes down to how much power you need to overcome the drag to move at a speed that gives you enough lift to fly.
 

leaded50

Legendary member
risk for overspeed, and then... can motor take the mechanical strain ? you could easily get excess heat generation, all possibly resulting in premature failure of the motor . If keep it low enough in throttle to ok rpm by motor spes, no problem.
 

FieldRC

Member
risk for overspeed, and then... can motor take the mechanical strain ? you could easily get excess heat generation, all possibly resulting in premature failure of the motor . If keep it low enough in throttle to ok rpm by motor spes, no problem.
risk for overspeed, and then... can motor take the mechanical strain ? you could easily get excess heat generation, all possibly resulting in premature failure of the motor . If keep it low enough in throttle to ok rpm by motor spes, no problem.
My motor is 2600kv, recommended prop is a (I'm assuming 2 blade) 4045. I used the general conventions for converting to 3 prop, decrease size and increase "bite". Good point, there might be some of those problems using a small fast motor on a large airframe.
 

Merv

Site Moderator
Staff member
...can I make a wider wingspan, like 20in?.....
Yes. 20 inch wing should work. But maybe too small. I’m not aware of any relationship between wing span and prop diameter.

There are relationships between thrust and weight, between watts and weight but nothing between prop and wing span. A thrust to weight ratio of 1:1 will be a good flyer. 1.5:1 will be aerobatic. 2+:1 will be a rocket.
 

cbf123

Member
My motor is 2600kv, recommended prop is a (I'm assuming 2 blade) 4045. I used the general conventions for converting to 3 prop, decrease size and increase "bite". Good point, there might be some of those problems using a small fast motor on a large airframe.

What specific motor is it? Often the quad motors are specced for high-ish cell coutns and work just fine with a larger-than-recommended prop as long as the cell count is also lower.
 

leaded50

Legendary member
28 mm Turnigy motor.. thats seems not correct with just a recommended 4045 prop? or is it a very thin one as a 2804 type 2806 eg?
 

FieldRC

Member
This is the equivalent of a power pack F, basically it can fly any of the flite Test Mini planes .. you can put a 2 bladed 6030 prop on here and run it on 2-3 cell.

I would suggest starting with the tiny trainer.
That would work well I think, but unfortunately I bought a decent amount of tri 3052 prop.
 

cbf123

Member
There's nothing stopping you from using the props that you have, in fact you could probably run them on 4s batteries.

Just be aware that with a teeny little prop like that you won't want to block any of it so it probably won't work well on a plane with a fat nose because so much of the airflow from the little prop will be blocked by the nose of the plane.

Arguably your best bet would be to pick up a pack of cheap 6x3 props (something like https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Gemfan-6030-ABS-Direct-Drive-Orange-Propeller-Blade-p-1070007.html) and then you can build just about any of the mini series planes.
 

FieldRC

Member
There's nothing stopping you from using the props that you have, in fact you could probably run them on 4s batteries.

Just be aware that with a teeny little prop like that you won't want to block any of it so it probably won't work well on a plane with a fat nose because so much of the airflow from the little prop will be blocked by the nose of the plane.

Arguably your best bet would be to pick up a pack of cheap 6x3 props (something like https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Gemfan-6030-ABS-Direct-Drive-Orange-Propeller-Blade-p-1070007.html) and then you can build just about any of the mini series planes.
Very true. My current build is a bit fat. I seems very powerful, but if it doesn't work I'll need to get these or build some kind of pusher.
 

Gnobuddy

Member
Propellers make thrust by grabbing a mass of air, accelerating it, and pushing it to towards the rear (of the aircraft).

The actual thrust is the product of these two things:
Thrust (in newtons) = (mass of air per second in kilograms) x (change in air velocity going through the prop in metres/second).

Note that this equation only works if you use sane units, i.e. SI units. Mass in kilograms, velocity change in metres/second. Thrust in newtons.

Anyhow: since thrust is the product of two things, you can make a given amount of thrust either by accelerating a large mass of air per second quite gently, or by violently accelerating a much smaller amount of air.

The first of those corresponds to turning a large propeller at relatively low rpm. The second corresponds to screaming a small propeller at high rpm.

Even if you carefully pick the propeller pitch to produce the same pitch speed from both propellers, guess which of those two processes takes more power from the motor?

Not sure? Ask yourself why helicopters always have a huge rotor. A big rotor is hard to engineer, it takes up lots of room, it requires enormous gearbox reduction ratios, it's heavy, it's bulky. There must be a good reason why helicopter designers go to all the trouble and expense and inconvenience. They would not be using huge rotors if small ones worked as well, right?

Yup, you got it. It takes a lot more power to get "x" watts of thrust at "y" pitch speed from a small propeller. Small props are inefficient. Big props are more efficient. When picking a propeller for your model, the first goal should always be to make the propeller as large as possible, provided you can find a motor with low enough Kv to swing it properly, and provided you can get a sufficiently high pitch speed from that big, slow-turning propeller. And provided the torque from the big propeller doesn't make your model hard to fly when you open or close the throttle.

In practice, several powerful WWII fighter aircraft ended up with propeller diameters that were nearly 30% of the wingspan. If the prop was bigger than that, torque reaction and landing gear length became problematic.

I found roughly the same practical limit in my powerful aerobatic electric RC planes. Prop diameter is best kept under 30% of the wingspan.

If the wingspan is huge (as on a high-aspect-ratio model), and the model a gentle flyer (an electric-assist glider, say), then a much smaller propeller will work just fine.

But in general, use the biggest propeller possible.

What about the other limit, the one you asked about? (i.e. using a very small prop?) Well, it amounts to throwing away efficiency. The smaller the prop, the more efficiency you're throwing away. And you are likely to also end up with far too much pitch speed to suit the model. This is like strapping a motorcycle drivetrain to a farm tractor. Not a great match.

The guys who build and fly rubber-powered models know all about this. They don't have excess power to waste. FAI F1D rubber-powered indoor models have enormous propellers that turn absurdly slowly, because that is the most efficient way to convert the limited amount of power from the rubber, into forward propulsion of the model. Take a look:

By the way, when you throw away efficiency by using a too-small propeller, you need more watts to make the same thrust. This means you need a bigger and heavier motor, and a bigger and heavier battery. So you also end up with a model that's heavier than it needs to be.

IMO, this is the single worst thing about using direct-drive outrunner motors, particularly in small sizes, on slow-flying model aircraft. Most of the time, the motor has too high a Kv to spin a properly sized propeller. You end up forced to use a too-small propeller turning at too-high rpm, producing poor efficiency and too much pitch speed to suit the model.

Two decades ago, the solution was to use a gearbox between motor and propeller. Gearboxes in electric RC planes have virtually gone extinct, but for slow-flying models, they were actually a much better solution than the little high-rpm outrunner motors we have today.

-Gnobuddy
 

Matthewdupreez

Legendary member
Propellers make thrust by grabbing a mass of air, accelerating it, and pushing it to towards the rear (of the aircraft).

The actual thrust is the product of these two things:
Thrust (in newtons) = (mass of air per second in kilograms) x (change in air velocity going through the prop in metres/second).

Note that this equation only works if you use sane units, i.e. SI units. Mass in kilograms, velocity change in metres/second. Thrust in newtons.

Anyhow: since thrust is the product of two things, you can make a given amount of thrust either by accelerating a large mass of air per second quite gently, or by violently accelerating a much smaller amount of air.

The first of those corresponds to turning a large propeller at relatively low rpm. The second corresponds to screaming a small propeller at high rpm.

Even if you carefully pick the propeller pitch to produce the same pitch speed from both propellers, guess which of those two processes takes more power from the motor?

Not sure? Ask yourself why helicopters always have a huge rotor. A big rotor is hard to engineer, it takes up lots of room, it requires enormous gearbox reduction ratios, it's heavy, it's bulky. There must be a good reason why helicopter designers go to all the trouble and expense and inconvenience. They would not be using huge rotors if small ones worked as well, right?

Yup, you got it. It takes a lot more power to get "x" watts of thrust at "y" pitch speed from a small propeller. Small props are inefficient. Big props are more efficient. When picking a propeller for your model, the first goal should always be to make the propeller as large as possible, provided you can find a motor with low enough Kv to swing it properly, and provided you can get a sufficiently high pitch speed from that big, slow-turning propeller. And provided the torque from the big propeller doesn't make your model hard to fly when you open or close the throttle.

In practice, several powerful WWII fighter aircraft ended up with propeller diameters that were nearly 30% of the wingspan. If the prop was bigger than that, torque reaction and landing gear length became problematic.

I found roughly the same practical limit in my powerful aerobatic electric RC planes. Prop diameter is best kept under 30% of the wingspan.

If the wingspan is huge (as on a high-aspect-ratio model), and the model a gentle flyer (an electric-assist glider, say), then a much smaller propeller will work just fine.

But in general, use the biggest propeller possible.

What about the other limit, the one you asked about? (i.e. using a very small prop?) Well, it amounts to throwing away efficiency. The smaller the prop, the more efficiency you're throwing away. And you are likely to also end up with far too much pitch speed to suit the model. This is like strapping a motorcycle drivetrain to a farm tractor. Not a great match.

The guys who build and fly rubber-powered models know all about this. They don't have excess power to waste. FAI F1D rubber-powered indoor models have enormous propellers that turn absurdly slowly, because that is the most efficient way to convert the limited amount of power from the rubber, into forward propulsion of the model. Take a look:

By the way, when you throw away efficiency by using a too-small propeller, you need more watts to make the same thrust. This means you need a bigger and heavier motor, and a bigger and heavier battery. So you also end up with a model that's heavier than it needs to be.

IMO, this is the single worst thing about using direct-drive outrunner motors, particularly in small sizes, on slow-flying model aircraft. Most of the time, the motor has too high a Kv to spin a properly sized propeller. You end up forced to use a too-small propeller turning at too-high rpm, producing poor efficiency and too much pitch speed to suit the model.

Two decades ago, the solution was to use a gearbox between motor and propeller. Gearboxes in electric RC planes have virtually gone extinct, but for slow-flying models, they were actually a much better solution than the little high-rpm outrunner motors we have today.

-Gnobuddy
👍👍👍👍👍👍
 
I just scanned this thread quickly; forgive me if this has been answered this way already.

The smallest prop to wingspan ratio is zero. That's why gliders work.
The easy answer is: build what you want. If you need more power, increase the motor size or the prop size or both.
The only limitation is your budget.
I'm really good at math, but I don't think I've ever discussed formulas and other algebra-related things here. Do you want to plug numbers into equations or do you want to build planes?
 

FieldRC

Member
I got a 5045 prop, which gives even larger thrust. And the "wind" isn't blocked by the body, so the plane works a lot better. but now the entire thing is dragged to the direction where the prop spins. Any suggestions? The wingspan is still 20in.
 

Flyingshark

Master member
I got a 5045 prop, which gives even larger thrust. And the "wind" isn't blocked by the body, so the plane works a lot better. but now the entire thing is dragged to the direction where the prop spins. Any suggestions? The wingspan is still 20in.
You could try to point the motor slightly away from the centerline to counteract the pull to one side. So if (looking from behind the plane) the prop is rotating clockwise, it will push the nose to the left, so you want to add some "thrust angle" to point the motor more to the right. This is a better solution than an aerodynamic one because it only counteracts the issue when it's present – trimming in some opposite rudder affects the plane even when the motor is off, so it will make it fly worse overall.

If your motor mount is something like an FT power pod, you could just make another one and cut the front of it (before you glue on the firewall) at a slight angle. If you can't do that to your motor mount, you could try to add a washer between the mount and the firewall on one side.
 

FieldRC

Member
You could try to point the motor slightly away from the centerline to counteract the pull to one side. So if (looking from behind the plane) the prop is rotating clockwise, it will push the nose to the left, so you want to add some "thrust angle" to point the motor more to the right. This is a better solution than an aerodynamic one because it only counteracts the issue when it's present – trimming in some opposite rudder affects the plane even when the motor is off, so it will make it fly worse overall.

If your motor mount is something like an FT power pod, you could just make another one and cut the front of it (before you glue on the firewall) at a slight angle. If you can't do that to your motor mount, you could try to add a washer between the mount and the firewall on one side.
Half of my props are CCW, and the other is CW. If I give some angle thrust, can I still use the "opposite side" props by flipping them?