Mini Speedster Biplane

flyin201

Active member
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Pictured above is the completed project for this build and is Version number 3. For more details and how to build one yourself read on. I do not have plans for this model but it is very easy to take the Mini Speedster plans and modify them to make this model. It uses an F pack motor and 3, 5 gram servos. It also has ailerons on all four wings. It is a hoot to fly!

I thought I would try to make a biplane out of the Mini Speedster. Basically I shortened and narrowed the wings and also moved the position of the bottom wing down to accommodate for the 2nd wing. I put dihedral on the bottom wing but kept the top wing straight. This is a rough prototype but so far it glides across the living room straight and true! I may make the nose longer to get enough weight in the front, we will see how it flies first.

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AircPirateNinsei

airc-pirates.com
For a long time the Mini Speedster was my little buddy and we had a lot of fun together! Unfortunately, he's crashed on a runway. I would also like to see him as a biplane and especially fly! I am looking forward to the final result and I hope for a build plan.
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
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I see no ailerons. Is this to be a gentle 3 channel flyer?

I like the clean look. There's something about biplanes that appeals to me too.
 

flyin201

Active member
JimCR120
I see no ailerons. Is this to be a gentle 3 channel flyer?

I like the clean look. There's something about biplanes that appeals to me too.

I intend for it to be as light as possible for an easy slow flier. Adding an extra wing along with the struts is already adding quite a bit of weight. Originally I was thinking of doing this to the Mini Sportster, however I felt that the double surface wing and extra servo(s) would make it too heavy for its intended purpose, however that probably would make for a good little acrobat.

grifflyer
do you have access to producing plans? or maybe giving measurements for what you did?

I don't have the ability to make plans, however it should be very easy to duplicate; the fuselage IS a speedster fuselage with a lowered positioning of the bottom wing. The real difference will be the wings and struts which will be super easy to make off of dimensions alone.

I intend to do more work on the struts to get something that looks better. The ones I have attached were cut out fairly quickly just to get something on there for a "proof of concept".

Unfortunately I won't be able to work on it for a while because I am out of town but I will post any updates here. I did add a windshield before I left so I can at least attach those pics.

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flyin201

Active member
Progress: Well I'm back in town and had some time to work on this project for a few minutes this evening. Added landing gear and servos, I'm using 9g servos in this build however I think I will use the 5g servos on version 2 to get the weight down even more. I've also realized that the outer struts are backwards from most biplanes, in that on a normal biplane the cross piece attaches to the bottom of the strut in front and connects to the top of the strut in the back. I think it might look better if I had the standard strut configuration. I'm also considering trying to use bbq skewers for the struts to help make it look the part.

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flyin201

Active member
It Flies!

Despite a short lived maiden due to a basket ball hoop, a little bit of hot glue and a new prop later and it flew! It needs some work however, it is very roll sensitive and if you let it go too far it will continue the turn and dive for the ground in a scary spiral. It flies similar to my friends SE5 in that it kinda of wallows back and forth a bit. It also kind of plows through the air so I'm thinking the wing incidence is a little too high. I think version two will have longer wings with a narrower chord along with a longer fuselage. Basically make it a little less "cartoonish". Here is some footage from the day's events.

The short lived Maiden (it's OK, you can laugh... I did!):


Some one man band action with a cell phone video in one hand while flying with the other:


The result of the day's event:

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Craftydan

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One other thing to consider if you haven't . . .

By putting the second wing on you've dramatically increased the wing area. You mentioned you shortened the wing, but I doubt the area dropped by 1/2.

Did you change the size of the tail to match?

I see you've got dihedral in the bottom wing -- is it the same as the speedster or did you increase it?

If you increase your aspect ratio (thinner, longer wings) are you planning on changing your wing-spacing? you're pretty close to 1 wing-cord now, but will your cord shrink in the re-sizing?


She's got beautiful lines. TLAR (That Looks About Right) certainly applies here, but she's only flying "about right". Shouldn't take much TLC to tame her :)
 

flyin201

Active member
One other thing to consider if you haven't . . .

By putting the second wing on you've dramatically increased the wing area. You mentioned you shortened the wing, but I doubt the area dropped by 1/2.

Did you change the size of the tail to match?

I see you've got dihedral in the bottom wing -- is it the same as the speedster or did you increase it?

If you increase your aspect ratio (thinner, longer wings) are you planning on changing your wing-spacing? you're pretty close to 1 wing-cord now, but will your cord shrink in the re-sizing?


She's got beautiful lines. TLAR (That Looks About Right) certainly applies here, but she's only flying "about right". Shouldn't take much TLC to tame her :)

All valid points. I was not originally intending to keep the wing area the same, I wanted it slightly larger than the Speedster to make up for the added weight, however even with the reduced chord and wingspan the wing area is dramatically more, but not double.

I did not change the tail size and I'm not convinced I need to. It displays some spiral instability which would indicate more directional stability than roll stability. However I do think the short wingspan is creating some roll instability and the short fuselage in relation to the wing chord is providing for a short moment arm for the tail to compensate which would only exaggerate the problem.

As for the dihedral, I just "winged" it. I didn't really have any good valid reasons for more or less so I went with what looked about right. At least I have a starting point to work with. It turns very easily so I don't think I need more for a rudder plane, however I think by adding some dihedral to the top wing may help with the stability issues. I may add ailerons on version two which may help with a lot of these issues, but I would rather not to keep weight and simplicity down.

I think I probably will shrink the wing spacing a bit with a narrower chord. That said I don't have much knowledge on the subject of biplane wing spacing vs chord length. Any further info on this subject would be appreciated!
 

Craftydan

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All valid points. I was not originally intending to keep the wing area the same, I wanted it slightly larger than the Speedster to make up for the added weight, however even with the reduced chord and wingspan the wing area is dramatically more, but not double.

I did not change the tail size and I'm not convinced I need to. It displays some spiral instability which would indicate more directional stability than roll stability. However I do think the short wingspan is creating some roll instability and the short fuselage in relation to the wing chord is providing for a short moment arm for the tail to compensate which would only exaggerate the problem.

. . . and the spin you stalled into is probably more from the small vertical stabilizer than anything else -- From the description (I can't watch the vid from here :( ) it sounds like you tip-stalled and the tail came out from behind you. That's typical spin behavior. You likely don't have much yaw stability, and that's what it tends to look like. Make the wing longer, induce more dihedral, and your spin-stall probably still won't go away -- it's the V-stab that needs to grow to improve yaw stability.

If you feel the elevator wasn't pitchy, then the horizontal may be enough. A bit bigger would give you more room to tolerate nose-heaviness, but if you've got a good balance that's not necessary.

As always, your build your call.

As for the dihedral, I just "winged" it. I didn't really have any good valid reasons for more or less so I went with what looked about right. At least I have a starting point to work with. It turns very easily so I don't think I need more for a rudder plane, however I think by adding some dihedral to the top wing may help with the stability issues. I may add ailerons on version two which may help with a lot of these issues, but I would rather not to keep weight and simplicity down.

Fair enough. As you know, that dihedral contributes to roll stability, of which you need extra when you're flying R/E (If all the plane has is coupled roll, it needs help to spring-back-to-level it can get when on neutral rudder). Good rule of thumb for a R/E mono-plane with only the center dihedral break is 1-2" per foot of span (1:12 - 1:6 slope, works out to ~5-10 degrees). For a bip, It's probably higher if it's only one wing (not sure of that either), so I'd lean toward the high side of that. Again, I don't know how much you have there, so not sure how your experience is measuring up against the RoTs.

As for a dihedral break on the top wing . . . I'd be more concerned with creating a crease in a seamless/sparless wing panel. For strength, probably best to leave it unbroken . . . and it looks nicer that way too ;)

I think I probably will shrink the wing spacing a bit with a narrower chord. That said I don't have much knowledge on the subject of biplane wing spacing vs chord length. Any further info on this subject would be appreciated!

To give you a feel for the physics, there's a weird venturi effect that happens between biplane wings, and a cord-length is a good breakpoint for the behaviors it creates. The tighter the venturi is (smaller the spacing) the less lift/more drag the wing generates, but the stronger the stabilizing effects are in relation to it -- roll and pitch stability increase as spacing shrinks.

a weird twist to this . . . stagger acts somewhat like spacing -- every mm of stagger (back of forward) will give you that much impact in spacing -- 3/4 cord spacing with 1/4 cord stagger acts like 1 cord spacing.


BTW, there are some improved stall behaviors you can create with decalage between the main wings (relative incidence), but that's your call. Right now it looks like it's at 0 (both wings are parallel to each other), so both wings stall roughly at the same speed/attitude, but if you were to get the top wing to stall first, your bottom wing (the one with all the dihedral) will continue to fly as the nose begins to involuntarily drop . . . and you keep your roll stabilization deeper into the stall. A degree or two of decalage here could make an impressive difference in the tendency of center v. tip stall.
 

flyin201

Active member
. . . and the spin you stalled into is probably more from the small vertical stabilizer than anything else -- From the description (I can't watch the vid from here ) it sounds like you tip-stalled and the tail came out from behind you. That's typical spin behavior. You likely don't have much yaw stability, and that's what it tends to look like. Make the wing longer, induce more dihedral, and your spin-stall probably still won't go away -- it's the V-stab that needs to grow to improve yaw stability.

It didn't spin and there was no stall, I probably shouldn't have used the word "spiral". Basically what happens is if you enter into a turn, it continues to roll and the nose continues to drop even when neutralizing the rudder. This tendency is characteristic of what is known as "Spiral Instability". More thorough description: http://avstop.com/ac/flighttrainghandbook/spiralinstability.html

I don't think a larger tail would hurt, but I'm still not convinced that it is the source of the problem, but you could very well be right. When I was actively teaching as a flight instructor in my aerodynamics classes the rolling joke amongst flight instructors was that most aerodynamics are PFM (Pure Freaking Magic). Another issue is that there could be multiple aerodynamic issues happening and one could be effecting the other.

However, I do think that lengthening the tail will have the same effect as enlarging the horizontal and vertical stabilizers because the arm will be lengthened essentially giving the tail more leverage.

As for the decalage I wasn't sure on that either. I had done some reading on it and it seemed there were a couple theories out there and different airplanes used different angles. Right now they are the same but I agree with you in that if the top wing had some decalage it may improve the stall characteristics.

Thanks for all your input I really appreciate it!
 

Craftydan

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Ah. Gotcha.

I missed the point about lengthening the tail. I agree, that should do.

Looking forward to seeing the next version :)
 

flyin201

Active member
Version 2

Well I've already got a lot done on Version 2. I think the wings at least look better, whether they fly better or not remains to be seen.

Changes:

1. Wings went from an 18" wingspan to 20"
2. Wing chord went from 5" to 4"
3. Dihedral in both wings.
4. Tail is now 2" longer and the nose 1" longer.
5. Tail surface area has been increased.
6. Cabane struts now BBQ skewers.

Tail looks a little too long now in my opinion, I'm thinking 1" would have been enough, and possibly keeping the original size of the tail. We'll we try this configuration and see how it goes!

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Michael9865

Elite member
Looks good. When I converted a Mini Scout to a biplane I went with a bottom wing incidence of 1.5 or 2 degrees as compared to the horizontal stabilizer, if memory serves me right. The top wing I set at zero degrees incidence as compared to the horizontal stabilizer. My bottom wing was the only wing to have dihedral. Like CraftyDan recommended I also increased the size of the tail feathers. Like you I increased the nose and tail moments. I like your speedster version, it has the classic lines of a barnstormer. Keep experimenting and tweeking your design.
 

flyin201

Active member
Version Two is ready for flight! I probably won't get a chance to fly it for a couple of days, but I'm already thinking about what I can tweek if it doesn't quite fly right.

Michael763
Looks good. When I converted a Mini Scout to a biplane I went with a bottom wing incidence of 1.5 or 2 degrees as compared to the horizontal stabilizer, if memory serves me right. The top wing I set at zero degrees incidence as compared to the horizontal stabilizer. My bottom wing was the only wing to have dihedral. Like CraftyDan recommended I also increased the size of the tail feathers. Like you I increased the nose and tail moments. I like your speedster version, it has the classic lines of a barnstormer. Keep experimenting and tweeking your design.

I have 0 degrees incidence on the bottom wing and about 2 degrees positive on the top wing. I ended up with more dihedral on the top wing because when I mounted the cabane struts it forced the center of the top wing down while also pushing the outer portion of the lower wings down through the main struts. I doubt it will have much effect, but we shall see... Wish me luck!

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flyin201

Active member
Version 2 Flight Report:

It flies great, as near as I can tell. I flew it today despite some windy conditions, it took 3/4 throttle at times to keep from going backwards. That said, it is much more stable than Version 1. I can hold full elevator up and it just sits there with a mild wobble back and forth. Spins are a lot of fun and easy to get out of. I am anxious to see it perform in calm conditions. Sorry no video, too busy dealing with the wind to do the one man band video and fly technique.

I think I'm going to go ahead and start on the final version, complete with paint and final details. I think I may extend the wings a little bit more and add ailerons, they would have helped tremendously in the wind today, I think I can do it relatively simply with only one servo to keep the weight down. I'm also going to use 5 gram servos throughout, that should keep the weight close to the same that it is now with 2, 9 gram servos.

I will photo document every phase and provide dimensions and methods along the way so that you can replicate it if you like. I may take the time to develop some plans if I can find an easy enough way to do so.