Designing and building my own mini-quad!

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Those motors sound sweet. There is no jello in the video. Can you run 6" rotors? Those sound like 5"ers to me.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
So it sounds like PCB123 isn't a viable option.

You may have better luck with it than I did. And I may be confused as to the details since I literally tried over a half dozen packages only to find that most of them don't deal well or at all with non-square boards or have VERY limited import options.

If I am reading the website correctly, diptrace supports importing DXF layouts? Have you had any opportunity to try importing DXF files? I may have a stab at downloading and trying it out myself, since it looks like Mac OS-X is supported.

Thanks for the advice!

That's the theory, but I've yet to have any luck with it :( Every DXF I've tried to import (or any other format for that matter) has shown up blank in the import screen. Twitchity had a bit of luck tonight it sounds like by converting the DXF to a gerber and importing that...but I haven't had any luck importing gerbers either. We're debating who gets to contact diptrace support as the next step :)

That's why right now what I've been doing is taking the DXF that Twitchity provides me (which has to be prepared in a certain way following the method here: http://todbot.com/blog/2011/06/06/f...e-vector-graphics-in-circuits/comment-page-1/ ) and importing it into Eagle. Then I use a "ULP" (User Language Program) for Eagle that comes with Diptrace and lets Eagle write a file in diptraces own format. Then I can open that file in DipTrace. Its an ugly hack and I'd be much happier if we could get DXF files to import directly into diptrace.
 

mpbiv

New member
Thanks again for the input jhitesma!

I toyed around a little last night after downloading and installing Diptrace.

It definitely runs on my MacBook Pro, but because it is a port from Windows, it doesn't run perfectly. I have to have Quartz X11 running and some other program called "Wine". I also noticed that if I try to minimize the window to the dock, it just disappears, and I end up having to restart the program.

All that said, the good news is I was able to get my DXF imported, and it appears to recognize it as the board outline. When I switch to 3D view, it shows up correctly. I even placed a couple random components to see what it would do, and that all seems to work.

I guess it's time to start reading up on how to use Diptrace. Once I get my fiance's new computer setup, I may install Diptrace on it since it is a windows machine (plus we already have Autocad on that one).
 

Twitchity

Senior Member
It sounds like it's the dxf file itself causing the problem and not DipTrace in our case. I submitted my quad dxf file to their customer support to which they replied, "The DXF file you sent has several splines. DipTrace doesn't support splines, it is recommend to use lines, arcs, polylines, polygons, rectangles and circles."

I'm going to try the original file that has smooth curves made with the pen tool and not the one I modified to work with Eagle to see if I can get it to import.

Just a quick question for you, I read somewhere that the dxf had to be AutoCAD 2004 format to work, is this true? Can you tell me the format your dxf file is that you were able to get imported into DipTrace?
 

mpbiv

New member
I exported my DXF files for AutoCAD version R12, which I believe is even older than the 2004 release. For whatever reason the oldest version seems to work the best for importing into other programs.
 

Twitchity

Senior Member
Well it turns out DipTrace will NOT play nicely with curved lines of any kind... On the DXF file you sent me for your quad, it will import just fine into DipTrace.

I can make a box, polygon with the pen tool in Illustrator and they will import just fine. If I add in a circle to the mix, it won't show in DipTrace. If I change one of the straight lines to a curve on the polygon it won't show anymore... The DXF file you sent me has a bunch of straight line segments that made up the curves, where Illustrator uses arcs which will not work with DipTrace for some reason.

I appreciate the information you've given me on this issue, at least I now know what's causing the problem... Just not sure how to fix it yet...
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Ahh, wine...I remember when that project first started. It's a compatibility layer kind of thing designed to allow running windows programs on unix. Was originally started on Linux. It's gotten pretty good. I've actually run fairly recent versions of Photoshop under it on my Linux notebook. But it's still a bit clunky. And I have to admit Diptrace overall isn't nearly as polished as Eagle or some of the other options. On my Vista machine I have to run it as administrator or it will crash on startup :(

The import info has given me a few more ideas...the intermediate format that is used to go from Eagle to Diptrace is in plain ASCII and fairly easy to parse here's the start of the file for Twitchity's quad base:

(Source "DipTrace-PCB")
(Units "mil")
(Scale 136.834)
(Xpos 320)
(Ypos -260)
(Board
(Flag1 "Y")
(Enabled "Y")
(Xmin 0.923456)
(Ymin 899.074838)
(Xmax 221.075906)
(Ymax 678.923934)
(Points
(pt 191.621381 788.063522 "N")
(pt 191.610009 788.534813 "N")
(pt 191.641013 787.586034 "N")
(pt 191.621381 788.063522 "N")
.
.
.

So if I can find a library that will let me parse .ai or .dxf files I should be able to hack together something that would do the conversion...if it was 20 some years ago and I was still in high school with no responsibilities and more time I'd probably already have tried that :D But it's also been close to 20 years since I did that kind of file hacking so I'm not in a huge hurry to go that route.

I do have a few more ideas though. Hopefully this weekend I'll get some time to try them. Or at least time to sit down and finish v2 of the quad board since I have that outline in there and ready to go :) Would love to make progress on the hex though....
 

mpbiv

New member
Bringing this thread back from the dead because I have been slowly gathering parts for new and improved version of my mini-quad. Changes are being made based on what I learned from the first build and also information I have picked up on the forums over the past few months. While I have made several changes to the frame setup (more on that later), one of the biggest changes is to the power system I will be using for Version 2. Below is a break-down of the components I have chosen based on research of forums and seeing what has worked for others.

Below: motors, ESC's, voltage regulator, battery and flight controller
DSC_1267.JPG

Motors: Cobra Motors CM2204 1960kv. These are about the same price as the SunnySky 2204s however they are a lower kv since I am going to a 4s battery pack. When I first saw the pictures of these online, I didn't expect them to be high quality, but after getting them in hand they seem to be very well made. Not to mention people seem to be getting pretty good performance out of them. I have HQProp 6030's on here for the pictures, but I plan to try the 6045's too.
DSC_1264.JPG

ESC: Flyduino KISS 18A 2-4s capable, these suckers are tiny tiny. It's going to take some patience to solder these up, but they should be worth it.
DSC_1272.JPG

Flight Controller: still using the Naze32 acro, although this one is black and I soldered the pins differently. I saw twitchity do this to save some space and liked it. I am also going to clock this board 90* when I install it this time because I had to remove the battery from the airframe to get to the USB the way I installed it in the prototype mini-quad.
DSC_1275.JPG

Battery: Thunder Power RC 1300mAh 4s 70c G8 Pro Force. For size comparison it is almost identical size/weight to the 1800mAh 3s I was using. This should keep the overall weight of the copter the same but provide better max thrust. I am hoping the flight times will be similar because it is only slightly less watt hours than the 3s pack, however the new motor and prop combo will also effect that.
DSC_1278.JPG

Prepping the ESC's: I found it easier to use the magnifying glass on the helping hands to tin the pads. I began by putting a little flux on each pad, which is hard to see in the photo.
DSC_1280.JPG

Tinning the pads: in this photo I have tinned the power, ground, and signal pads. Probably going to use 20awg for the power and ground, and 26awg for the signal wire. I need to put in an order for those materials this week.
DSC_1281.JPG

All 4 ESC's are ready to be soldered
DSC_1282.JPG

Motor Connection: Originally I was thinking about nesting the ESC's in the dirty frame like I did on the first build. However I decided against it because these ESC's don't have heat sinks and I'd rather avoid finding out the hard way that they didn't get enough cooling. Instead, I have soldered them close to the motor in the airflow of the prop. The short motor leads I believe have lacquer coating which has to be burned off. I applied my soldering iron for a while to help burn off the lacquer. I used a meter to check the resistance between leads and compared it to one of the cobra motors that still had the factory extension wires in place. Both motors measure the same resistance in ohms so I hope that is a good enough test.
DSC_1284.JPG

Securing the ESC: At this point I was just testing out some heat shrink I had to see if it would shrink tight enough around the ESC. I have plenty of this stuff left, so I will cut this back open to finish the power and signal wires later. Although I am considering trying to find some thinner clear heat shrink so I can see the LED on the ESC's.
DSC_1286.JPG

Now only 3 more ESC's and motors to connect!
 

FinalGlideAus

terrorizing squirrels
I very much hope you have something between the arm and esc. Some high density foam tape works well. This does two things. Firstly it protects the esc from shocks during impacts and secondly it stops the smoke coming out from shorting on the arms although it does look like you're using painted G10. It is still a good idea to to anyway.

Don't bother with the 6x3 props on the 1960kv's running 4s, go straight to the 6x4.5 HQ glass/nylon props.
 

Burly

New member
Two questions/observations for Twitchity and Jithesma in case they revisit this thread:

#1. Why are you trying to shape PCB boards? Sure you can have custom PCB's made with custom outlines(expensive) and internal cutouts...which are even more outrageous. But why not order rectangular PCB boards then cut the profile into them yourself. You're already cutting G10 which I think is just another name for FR4 PCB material...isn't it? Get rectangular PCB boards made, then cut what ever outlines and odd-shaped internal cutouts you need on the CNC Router. By doing this, you have total control. Of course you have to design it properly so you don't cut copper traces.

As far as getting boards made...all the cheap Chinese places deal only in rectangular PCB boards...period....
Believe me...I have done extensive research on this.

Get your boards made at SeedStudio.com Fusion PCB Board Service.
There is none cheaper.

It's best to order in quantities of 10.
Here's what you will pay for 10 boards at various dimensions at standard 1oz. copper an 1.6mm FR4 thickness.

2"x2" costs $9.90 for 10 (i.e. $0.99 a board...yada yada).
2"x4" costs $18.90 for 10.
2"x6" costs $35.10 for 10.
2"x8" costs $41.50 for 10.
2"x10" costs $49.90 for 10.
2"x12" costs $54.20 for 10.

4"x4" costs $21.90 for 10.
4"x6" costs $54.20 for 10.
4"x8" costs $67.00 for 10.
4"x10" costs $79.89 for 10.
4"x12" costs $92.50 for 10.

Those prices are dirt cheap.


#2. This one is for Twitchity
Have you ever tried building with Acrylic Resin Sheets?
They go by the brand names of Plexiglass, Acralite, Optex.
...or even better...
Have you ever tried building with Polycarbonate Sheets?
They go under the brand names of Lexan and Macrolon.
 

mpbiv

New member
I very much hope you have something between the arm and esc. Some high density foam tape works well. This does two things. Firstly it protects the esc from shocks during impacts and secondly it stops the smoke coming out from shorting on the arms although it does look like you're using painted G10. It is still a good idea to to anyway.

Don't bother with the 6x3 props on the 1960kv's running 4s, go straight to the 6x4.5 HQ glass/nylon props.
It is black G10, it is not painted, so shorting is not going to be a concern. I'll make sure to throw some some foam tape under them after all the soldering is done, I just wanted to see if the heat shrink I had would work. I already use Trinity RC foam tape to mount my receivers, and I also used it to mount my 12A ESC's on the initial build.
 

Twitchity

Senior Member
Burly,

I haven't looked much into other sources for PCB manufacturing outside of OSH Park as it came highly recommended and I've been very pleased with the quality of their boards. I might give Seed studio a try to see how the quality compares to OSH park and how complicated it would be to cutout the frame design in the completed PCB on my CNC. I do like how they have the option to make the boards in different colors though. As far as the solder mask goes, is it the standard green solder mask you see on just about every PCB out there?

I have not tried building anything with acrylic, polycarbonate, lexan, etc. sheets yet, but it is something I an interested in doing in the future. I don't think the material is stiff enough to prevent flex, but I still want to give it a shot since I think it would be nice to have a clear multirotor with a PDB so you don't see many wires. If you have any recommendations on what type of material works the best, I'd love to hear it to get my started in the right direction.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I've seen Seed's boards and they aren't bad...but they aren't nearly as nice as OSH park. Also Seed's Fusion service only does boards up to 30mmx30mm as far as I can tell.

OSH park won for our prototypes because:

1) low minimum order at reasonable prices (not the lowest prices)
2) Outstanding board quality
3) Shaped outlines and cutouts are no additional charge and they handle them just fine.
4) Made in the USA
5) Simple pricing and they handle larger sizes.

For production boards OSH wouldn't be a good choice. Their prices are too high for that. I've been looking into a few board houses that can do similar quality in production sized runs...but the problem is we'd have to order way more than I think we'd need right now for the price to be equal or lower than OSH. Even without cutouts and shaped outlines.

And I have to admit...a big part of it was I was curious to see if OSH could handle it. I kind of want to design an all in one single board brushed quad PCB just for fun and I'm now convinced that OSH could handle it because of how well they did on these.

To be honest Seed was my first thought about doing a board. But their size limit and minimum order quantities compared to the benefits but slightly higher price of OSH shot them down fairly quick.

I'm really dying to get a FC circuit on these now that Twitchity did such an amazing job doing the power bits the way I wanted to originally. But I just can't for the life of me get the decoupling caps around the MPU-6050 routed :( I'm sure there's something simple I'm missing...or it could be the design rules from OSH park limiting me (though plenty of people have reported OSH park can handle this size of package even though it's a little smaller than they advertise in their capabilities.) Just been too busy to spend too much time dealing with it. And given how well he figured out the power stuff I'm hoping Twitchity will get inspired and try routing one of the schematics I sent him one of these days - I think he's got a better knack for that side of things than I do :) I can handle logic and schematics...but physical stuff like board routing and tilt mechanism and making top and bottom plates that actually line up with each other - I try to leave that to others :)
 

Burly

New member
Hi Twitchity and Jithesma,

You guys are doing a bang up job on those quad bodies!!!!!

Jithesma, Seed Studios does sizes up to 30cm x 30cm...that's 12"x12".

Yes Jithesma, I agree, I've used OSH Park too. They are very good for ordering only 3 boards that are 2"x2" or less in size. But after that, their pricing model completely breaks down. Buying 9 - 2"x2" boards from OSH Park would cost $60. Buying 10 - 2"x2" boards from Seed Studio would cost $9.99 plus shipping costs. And as the board size increases the numbers become even worse.

Turn around time obviously favors OSH Park (5 to 7 days). I would assume Seed Studio could take up the 3 weeks.

As far as PCB colors go, Seed Studio offers soldermask colors red, white, yellow, and blue at a flat $10 surcharge regardless of quantity or board size. Black is available for a flat $20 surcharge. Standard green of course is free.

It sounds like you want to do more with a PCB than just route power around. Jithesma mentioned a 6050 (I assume Invense MEMS chip). Just what are you guys up to?...lol.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Hi Twitchity and Jithesma,

You guys are doing a bang up job on those quad bodies!!!!!

Jithesma, Seed Studios does sizes up to 30cm x 30cm...that's 12"x12".

Doh, for some reason I kept reading that as mm not cm. I may have to take another look at them. I have heard their quality has improved some lately.

It sounds like you want to do more with a PCB than just route power around. Jithesma mentioned a 6050 (I assume Invense MEMS chip). Just what are you guys up to?...lol.

No secret I've been wanting to layout my own controller and do things a bit differently than most are doing them. But given how bad I am at routing boards it's not happening anytime too soon :) Power boards are nice but integrating a good FC cleans things up so much and makes a build go so lightening fast.
 

mpbiv

New member
My last entry addressed the steps taken to wire up the new KISS 18A ESC's. It actually took me a while to complete wiring the other 3 motors and ESC's. But that was only the beginning. The KISS ESC's do not include a BEC circuit to power the Naze32 or the receiver, so you have to include your own. Below are the final assembly steps of the assembly of the 4S powered Version 2 Mini-Quad.

Lots of wiring here, designing a power distribution board is on my list of things to do:
DSC_1333.JPG

Placement of Pololu 5V 500mA regulator:
DSC_1335.JPG

Dirty section assembled, one connector for the ESC/Naze32, and one to power the Immersion vtx:
DSC_1336.JPG

Originally changed the bottom plate on Version 2 for better cooling of the ESC's when mounted inboard, but I ended up mounting the KISS 18A ESC's to the arms since they didn't have heat sinks. Here you can see the rats nest worth of wiring it takes to get everything connected:
DSC_1337.JPG

Mounting the lower clean plate with new black Naze32 mounted:
DSC_1339.JPG

The install is a lot cleaner with the connector on the bottom, and the board clocked with the USB port facing out. This will make it easier to program too:
DSC_1341.JPG

Detail view of how I mounted the Immersion vtx, which I don't think I showed in my previous build:
DSC_1344.JPG

Version 2 upper clean plate changed to allow for access to a velcro battery strap:
DSC_1345.JPG

The antenna mast mount from Shapeways finally arrived:
DSC_1347.JPG

Receiver mounted:
DSC_1349.JPG

My pictures really don't do the orange Shapeways printed parts justice:
DSC_1357.JPG

Other than a lack of PDB I am pretty satisfied with how Version 2 Mini-Quad turned out. Eventually I would like to take some time to redesign the upper dirty plate as a PDB, but in the mean time I have other projects to work on and flight tuning of the new 4S setup.

I went ahead and took it out for it's maiden hover and it is an absolute rocket (compared to 3S setup) even with the 6030 props. It was suggested I run the 6045 props because the setup should handle it, but I might tool around with these props for a little while and work on my skills first.
 

Twitchity

Senior Member
The new design looks very nice. I especially like the holder for your receiver. I'm either going to have to give Shapeways a try, or get my own 3D printer because those kind of mods are the best. You also really need to get a PDB made for that quad. I can draw one up in DipTrace one of these days if you'd like.