FAA propose new interpretation does not just effect FPV (and Funny Video on this)

Burly

New member
A big part of the issue is that over the years the hobby has migrated from the organized flying fields, into the parks and soccer fields...to practically everywhere imaginable today. And as the hobby grows you have a proportional number of knuckleheads breaking major safety rules.

I'm not sure the AMA has the power to either prosecute them or levy fines.
It maybe that the worst they could do is take away their AMA card if they are a member...that's no deterrent.

On the other hand the FAA can levy fines...but historically they've left the rules to be administered by the AMA.

Not a good situation.
 

FAI-F1D

Free Flight Indoorist
And several folks continue to think the FAA is here to help. I'm a pilot, having participated in commercial aviation for over 10 years, plus the communication I have from other pilots with the virtually unanimous view that the FAA is here to gain power and wealth from their corporate cronies (the airlines). The only reason civil aviation exists in this nation is because of legal and political resistance put forth by AOPA and EAA, organizations composed of folks who have basically spent their lives fighting it out with Big Brother.

The AMA is our equivalent of those two organizations, and it hasn't learned yet how aggressive the fight needs to be.

The AMA has no need to provide any regulation. It should continue its practice of ensuring activities in compliance with its safety rules under operation by its members. Others bear their own liability. Lawsuits take care of infractions quite effectively. They sure have done so in full scale aviation!

Those who are guilty of reckless operations were already prosecutable under existing law as shown by the events in NYC involving idiots flying DJI's around a helicopter. You arrest folks like that for reckless endangerment. The FAA doesn't even need to show up or participate.

The FAA's unconstitutional discrimination against commercial activities is an outrage. Unfortunately the past 60 years of FAA power grabs have inoculated us to the fact that such a behavior is immoral.

Anyone who does something stupid with a toy airplane in a park with kids around will feel the consequences of law enforcement and lawsuits under the same systems that take care of folks who drop rocks from overpasses. There will always be a few who do stupid things. Anyone who uses a toy airplane as a weapon will be legally regarded as an aggressor, and lethal force will be authorized by law enforcement and the courts just as it would be toward those wielding knives and the like.

Bottom line, the legal system already has the teeth to deal with stupid people. Making new rules in hopes of preventing stupid things only succeeds in enslaving law-abiding citizens.
 

FlyingMonkey

Bought Another Trailer
Staff member
Admin
I'm just a hobbyist...

Interesting, you're rather verbose about the topic of the FAA's new stance on model aviation, yet you have so few words to describe your interest in the hobby.

Most people I associate with know better than to get me started talking about RC aviation. I tend to get a bit excited, talking about how I got started, what I'm flying, what aircraft I'd like to get in the future.

Burly, what types of aircraft to you fly? Are you a builder, or do you prefer RTF? Do you fly at a local club, or are you one of those "rogue" pilots that fly wherever? I see you're in Ohio, will you be attending Flite Fest?
 

Tritium

Amateur Extra Class K5TWM
IMHO the AMA is a specialty Insurance Company ONLY! Their rules are created to prevent payouts from stupidity.

When did having fun and making money part company.

Why is my hobby deemed commercial when it makes a dime.

Why is my flying over my private acreage surveying crops or livestock commercial use.

I am not a corporation but a private individual trying to make a living using whatever tech I can afford to make life better.

Actually with the amount I have spent in about 3 years I do not know how anyone could say I am making money even if paid UNTIL I reach an amount of cash in that exceeds cash out for equipment.

Any accountant can see that you have not made money but just offset cost a bit.

Thurmond
 

FlyingMonkey

Bought Another Trailer
Staff member
Admin
I think in this new interpretation of the rules, the FAA is only trying to carve away the use of FPV Goggles.
The FAA isn't trying to destroy the whole RC industry.

It might not be their intention, but if the industry was to follow the interpretation as it stands now, it would destroy the industry. You seem to try to defend it by claiming that the FAA was careless...

But in framing this document, the FAA was careless in a number of areas
In a couple of snippets the FAA specifically cited that:
"Demonstrating aerobatics for money" is not legal.
"Making money" from flying RC is not legal.

I don't know if careless is the word I'd use. By the amount of focus they put into this one letter, it seemed a lot of care was taken.

FAA said:
and further noted that to qualify as a model aircraft, the aircraft would need to be operated purely for recreational or hobby purposes


FAA said:
The policy statement also clarified that AC 91-57applied only to modelers and “specifically excludes its use by persons or companies forbusiness purposes.”


FAA said:
The statute requires model aircraft to be flown strictly for hobby or recreationalpurposes.


FAA said:
Adefinition of “hobby” is a “pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especiallyfor relaxation.” Merriam-Webster Dictionary, available at www.merriam-webster.com(last accessed June 9, 2014). A definition of recreation is “refreshment of strength andspirits after work; a means of refreshment or diversion.” Id. These uses are consistentwith the FAA’s 2007 policy on model aircraft in which the Agency stated model aircraft operating guidelines did not apply to “persons or companies for business purposes.” See 72 FR at 6690.4


FAA said:
Any operation not conducted strictly for hobby or recreation purposes could notbe operated under the special rule for model aircraft. Clearly, commercial operationswould not be hobby or recreation flights.5 Likewise, flights that are in furtherance of abusiness, or incidental to a person’s business, would not be a hobby or recreation flight.


FAA said:
Although they are not commercialoperations conducted for compensation or hire, such operations do not qualify as a hobbyor recreation flight because of the nexus between the operator’s business and theoperation of the aircraft.


FAA said:
To provide guidance, the following are examples of flights that could beconducted as hobby or recreation flights and other types of flights that would not behobby or recreation.


hobby not hobby.jpg

I think it's pretty clear, they are VERY adamant about not being able to use RC aircraft in any way that is associated with a business. Yes, by this interpretation, it would kill the RC industry as we know it.

Of course everyone took these "generalized" statements and came up with all these nightmare scenarios that ultimately leads to the death of the organized RC industry as pertains to selling fully assembled planes.
No more complete RC planes could be sold, because at some point the plane must have "test flights", and employees are getting paid for doing these "test flights".
And these "test flights" are being done as part of a commercial business (selling RC Planes)...and not a hobby.

Go back and re-read the list. Nothing generalized about it. The FAA gets very specific about what they deem as model aviation, and what is not. Anything that is "not" wouldn't be protected by Part 91, and thus subject to action by the FAA.



Now, all of that being said, do I think commercial flights of RC aircraft should be covered under the hobbyist exemption of model aviation? No. But, the FAA has refused to work with the public in developing any sort of guidelines for the commercial use of small, lightweight model aircraft. I've been following the requests for nearly a decade. We've begged for some fair operational guidelines, meetings have been conducted, businesses have been put on hold. The FAA has shown no real interest in working with the public, that they're supposed to be working for.

So I guess the ultimate end state would be that:
The RC hobbyist can buy the pieces and parts of a plane that have never been tested as a whole...assemble them...and hope for the best.
Or he can start from scratch with raw foam or balsa...design, build, test, and fly his own creations.
Hey, maybe not so bad an end state…lol.

What you seem to be saying here, is that we should be happy to go back to the state of the hobby as it was in the 1930's? "Here's some sticks, and a rough drawing, good luck." And it better not be a design that you've successfully flown before...

Of course this whole scenario is ridiculous.
The AMA knows that the FAA is only to attempting to carve away the FPV goggles.
But it's concerned that if this goes through...then there's nothing stopping the FAA from taking more and more bites out of AMA's authority over model aviation.
So the AMA is in no hurry to tamp down the illogical hysteria.

Actually, the FAA's comments on goggles is fairly minor in this letter. In fact, it's at the end of a list of devices that they say do not count as "line of sight". Almost as if the goggles were an afterthought.

Even if that was the case, why "carve away FPV goggles"? How are the use of goggles inherently dangerous to the public, or the NAS? If I fly via goggles through a section of the woods, below the tree height, how am I presenting a threat to life or property? Or flying a closed course at an RC flying field? Or inside an empty parking garage at night?

FAA said:
the FAA interprets this requirement to mean that: (1) the aircraftmust be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her ownnatural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses)to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu ofthe operator for maintaining visual line of sight. Under the criteria above, visual line ofsight would mean that the operator has an unobstructed view of the model aircraft. Toensure that the operator has the best view of the aircraft, the statutory requirement wouldpreclude the use of vision-enhancing devices, such as binoculars, night vision goggles,powered vision magnifying devices, and goggles designed to provide a “first-personview” from the model.

I guess the AMA is even adding to the fear if it now contends that under the new rule "demonstrating aerobatics at airshows for pay is illegal".
That's just an AMA defensive move by using the FAA's sloppy crafting of the document.

See again…

hobby not hobby.jpg

If push comes to shove on this issue of flying at airshows, then the "vendor demonstration flights" now become "vendor test flights...an important component of the vendors ongoing quality control program across the entire product line."
After all, vendors are allowed to do test flights as part of bringing to market their complete airplanes and insuring ongoing quality control...aren't they?


Of course the test flights at the airshow have to include lots of fun to watch extreme aerobatics to fully test the structure...lol.

It's all a matter of wordsmithing...

Here's where this "argument" falls apart…

FAA said:
These operating standards included restricting operations over populated areas, limiting use of the devices around spectators until after the devices had been flight tested and proven airworthy

The FAA will not be too keen on anyone claiming to do test flights, in front of an audience at an event. If this is "all about public safety" then the last thing they'll be allowing is "test flights" at air shows.


The actual FAA notice of interpretation.
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf


An excellent presentation of what's at stake…
 

FlyingMonkey

Bought Another Trailer
Staff member
Admin
IMHO the AMA is a specialty Insurance Company ONLY! Their rules are created to prevent payouts from stupidity.

When did having fun and making money part company.

Why is my hobby deemed commercial when it makes a dime.

Why is my flying over my private acreage surveying crops or livestock commercial use.

I am not a corporation but a private individual trying to make a living using whatever tech I can afford to make life better.

Actually with the amount I have spent in about 3 years I do not know how anyone could say I am making money even if paid UNTIL I reach an amount of cash in that exceeds cash out for equipment.

Any accountant can see that you have not made money but just offset cost a bit.

Thurmond

The AMA is our voice in the government circles. That is their most important role.

As to your other questions, any time you accept money for an action, it's a commercial venture. No matter if it started as a hobby or not.

The classic example that I recall is in regards to paint.

If you clean your garage, and take some partially empty paint cans to the recycling/waste management facility, you're good. Nothing special needed to complete the trip.

Now, if you slap a sign on the side of your truck, and charge someone to take their nearly empty used paint cans to the same facility, you're subject to needing a commercial license, a business license, commercial plates for your vehicle, DOT certifications for HazMat transport, increased insurance coverage, and more.


In regards to your closing statements, the government doesn't care if you succeed or fail at your business. If you're charging for a product or a service, you're a commercial entity. Even if you go into debt in the attempt.
 

Tritium

Amateur Extra Class K5TWM
Slightly off topic examples:

The government redefines words to suit their purposes!

Take the word income for example: Income is defined by congress as "profit or gain" but defined by the IRS as all things that come in including Labor!

Labor is actually a 1 for 1 exchange of your life energy and talent for money. A Talent/Skills TAX is what most labors pay to the IRS.

FM I knew the answers when I posted the questions BUT I think the government is no longer our employees but our masters (or will be VERY soon). The government is increasingly dishonest and totally immoral in its entire makeup.

The "soul less paper man and the bankers" ,though, actually rule this country.:mad:

Thurmond
 
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Crash_Expert

Aerial Photographer
How many times has the AMA successfully dissuaded the government from passing laws that would hurt the hobby?
I would like to know if anyone has the answer.

All we hear is that the AMA is our official voice in government.
But how much do they actually do?

C_E
 

Tritium

Amateur Extra Class K5TWM
The NRA certainly has conceded many gun owner rights in the name of protecting gun rights (I suspect the AMA is no different). The only one who can and will actually protect your rights is YOU!

Thurmond
 

7AC

Junior Member
Help FT and AMA fight the FAA

As of 7/7/14 just over 2000 replies to the FAA's new interpretation of Congress's intent had been made by the RC community. FT has over 100,000 viewers. It will take far more than 2000 respondents to influence FAA's tactics redefining model aircraft but they could well impact every one of those viewers. Please be sure to make your voice heard at http://www.regulations.gov.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Actually no. It's not a popularity contest and numbers don't really matter. I've fought these fights before. 1 well written letter that accurately addresses the things the FAA has to respond to (why or why not what they're doing is legal for example) is worth more than 200k letters saying "I enjoy FPV don't take it away".

Petitions are great at making people feel like they did "something" without actually accomplishing anything. Which IMHO is worse than doing nothing since then people are wasting the little energy they are willing to put out on something that honestly has almost no chance of making any kind of difference at all.

Quite frankly having been through these kinds of comment periods before with federal fights ... unless you're a lawyer who is VERY well versed in the details of what's being proposed your comments just aren't going to do any good and will just be ignored. They won't hurt...but that energy would be better directed towards things that could actually make a difference.

Supporting the AMA is a better path. But still not a great one given their stance on FPV.

Effort would be MUCH better spend convincing the AMA to fight and to not just fight for the limited view of FPV they currently endorse. Or starting a group that will fight and won't concede to the limits the AMA has proposed. Right now based on the AMA's stance supporting them the best we can hope for is something worse than what the AMA currently supports. Going into this fight the way they are the AMA just isn't going to be in a position to fight for what most FPV flyers want. Instead the best they can hope for is even more restrictions than what they already support (LOS only, buddy box required...)

Heck contacting your local news outlets and arranging some demonstrations for them and showing the public how things can be done safely and why they shouldn't be regulated out of existence will do more good than a stack of petitions and any comments. Winning the support of the general public is key and that's something every single one of us can and should be working on.
 

DDSFlyer

Senior Member
Speaking of well versed lawyers...where's Trappy's lawyer and is he leading the fight against the FAA on this? I wonder what the interview with FT says about it.
 

Tritium

Amateur Extra Class K5TWM
He is usually over at FPV Labs and I hear he is representing several victims of the FAA's recent WITCH HUNT. ;)

It has been said by more than one person (usually old AMA gasser pilots) that a multirotor can only fly by "Black Magic". I guess the FAA believes it.

Thurmond
 
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Burly

New member
Interesting, you're rather verbose about the topic of the FAA's new stance on model aviation, yet you have so few words to describe your interest in the hobby.
Most people I associate with know better than to get me started talking about RC aviation. I tend to get a bit excited, talking about how I got started, what I'm flying, what aircraft I'd like to get in the future.
Burly, what types of aircraft to you fly? Are you a builder, or do you prefer RTF? Do you fly at a local club, or are you one of those "rogue" pilots that fly wherever? I see you're in Ohio, will you be attending Flite Fest?

I'm pretty much a noob. I have scratch built a couple of planes out of 1" Pink Dow foam board for the fuse, and a product called "Model Plane Foam" for the wings. I've joined the AMA, but no club affiliation. I'm really interested in the electronic end of the hobby. I'm a software/hardware geek who likes to fool around with writing microcontroller firmware and designing microcontroller boards. My ultimate goal is to design a DIY radio and transmitter combination.

I'm certainly not a rogue pilot. I'm not impressed when I see articles of the crazies, flying above the clouds, or over densely populated areas, or the latest incident when someone flew a quad copter around a full sized police helicopter.

Flitefest...maybe...

No! I don't want the hobby to revert back to scratchbuilding.
No! I don't want to destroy the vendors.
No! I don't in any way support the FAA in this power grab.
The FAA continually drag their feet on every task they are given.
Concerning their mandate to define new rules for UAV...they have missed every single deadline.
If the FAA had had a magic wand, they would outright ban flying as a hobby.
It makes their job of insuring safety that much easier just to disallow everything.
Ultimately, the FAA wants total control.
Under their strict definition of an aircraft...even a golf ball qualifies.
If the FAA were given the job as a lifeguard...they would post one rule...NO SWIMMING.
 
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FlyingMonkey

Bought Another Trailer
Staff member
Admin
I'm pretty much a noob. I have scratch built a couple of planes out of 1" Pink Dow foam board for the fuse, and a product called "Model Plane Foam" for the wings. I've joined the AMA, but no club affiliation. I'm really interested in the electronic end of the hobby. I'm a software/hardware geek who likes to fool around with writing microcontroller firmware and designing microcontroller boards. My ultimate goal is to design a DIY radio and transmitter combination.

Welcome to the friendliest "RC Noob" forum on the internet! Have you looked into the history of rc transmitters? I've had the fortune to speak with guys who DID build their own transmitters and receivers. There's a guy who posts a variety of RC aviation videos on youtube, who used to work with Kraft Radio, one of the leading radio makers at one time.

Check him out here...
https://www.youtube.com/user/NightFlyyer

I'm certainly not a rogue pilot. I'm not impressed when I see articles of the crazies, flying above the clouds, or over densely populated areas, or the latest incident when someone flew a quad copter around a full sized police helicopter.

"Rogue pilot" doesn't have to be a derogatory term. I prefer to fly in locations like the local state forest. Or I'll find an empty section of a park to fly something low and slow. I really enjoy taking aerial images and video, you don't get much diversity flying patterns at the club field. I do not argue the point about people who are being reckless in the ways you point out. As much as I may have enjoyed some above the cloud footage, I also recognize the threat this type of flying could pose to full scale aircraft.

Flitefest...maybe…

If you can, come. Look me up. I'll be all over the place, I'm sure.

No! I don't want the hobby to revert back to scratchbuilding.
No! I don't want to destroy the vendors.
No! I don't in any way support the FAA in this power grab.
The FAA continually drag their feet on every task they are given.
Concerning their mandate to define new rules for UAV...they have missed every single deadline.
If the FAA had had a magic wand, they would outright ban flying as a hobby.
It makes their job of insuring safety that much easier just to disallow everything.
Ultimately, the FAA wants total control.
Under their strict definition of an aircraft...even a golf ball qualifies.
If the FAA were given the job as a lifeguard...they would post one rule...NO SWIMMING.

I couldn't agree with you more.
 

Burly

New member
Hi Flying Monkey,

Flying in remote places like State Parks is cool. Especially through a woods. How could a woods be considered "controlled airspace"?

Thanks for the YouTube link for Nightflyer. He looks like a very interesting guy...700 videos...yikes!

On YouYoutube I watch FliteTest, RCModelReviews, XJet, ExperimentalAirlines, MyGeekShow, AlexGreve, and StoneBlueAirlines.

Maybe we'll catch you at FliteFest.

Cheers...
 

Balu

Lurker
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
I thought the DJI controllers won't fly around airports? Don't they have a safety feature that prevents that?
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
There is a "GPS" No-fly-zone feature in DJI's ROMs, but DJI has to define the zone (last I heard there are only a VERY few zones) and turning off the GPS modes disables the no-fly-zone functionality completely.