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Flite Test participation in remote access identification. What do you think?

JTarmstr

Well-known member
#21
@BS projects inc.

If I am flying in a safe manor why do I NEED to be identified.. I wont be anywhere that could possibly cause issue to full scale aircraft?

I am beginning to get the feeling you have some kind of personal involvement in this system here. You are promoting it awfully hard in a forum. Then you make the statement you fly in the middle of nowhere like another member where NONE of this really effects safe air space.

Again I reiterate.. its nothing more then profiteering... where is all the regulation and "Ohh you must be identified while flying" BULLCRAP in regard to ultra light aircraft and para-motors and all the things that are actually IN the air space of real aircraft...

There is nothing you or anyone can say to make me believe this or any other new legislation is in the best interest in the hobby. Profiteering nothing more.

EDIT: Oh and what is being done about private small aircraft flying in MY airspace under 400 ft taking pictures of the pretty fall colors. Thats more unsafe then anything to full scale flight.. and they HAVE the gear where they can be tracked.
How is it BS? I agree that fixed wings do not present a large threat, however, multirotors are a different story, as battery technology develops and motors improve, drones become capable of more and more. Its only a matter of time before they are used in a terrorist attack, and what then? then they will be regulated into the ground. Lets be honest with the lazy attitude most people hold, nothing will happen except a scream for legislation and governmental protections because they cant protect themselves. How soon till someone tries to hit a helicopter/airplane with a drone? The DJI Mavic 2 can travel for miles and has a top speed of 72 MPH. You can buy one of these $1,725.

The way i see it, there are two ways this goes, we have mild regulations and suffer all the watching and reporting bs. Or we can wait until some jerk does something destructive with a drone and they are regulated into the ground. These regulations are coming whether we like it or not.

Also quick question isn't it legal to go under 400 feet if you get permission from ATC? I genuinely dont know if this is true or not. When I was in Alaska most of the float planes where flying way lower than 400 ft AGL and they did it on routine.
 

BS projects inc.

Well-known member
#22
I am concerned about the technology to report your position will be to cumbersome or heavy or pricey. If the current demands are to great for lightweight foam planes power system or to large to place on the air frames is when people will flock from this great hobby we all love.
You don't have to add any hardware to your aircraft. You go on an app, go to a map of where you are flying and mark the area that you will be flying in along. This lets people know that the person who is flying next to your house is being responsible.
 

BS projects inc.

Well-known member
#23
How is it BS? I agree that fixed wings do not present a large threat, however, multirotors are a different story, as battery technology develops and motors improve, drones become capable of more and more. Its only a matter of time before they are used in a terrorist attack, and what then? then they will be regulated into the ground. Lets be honest with the lazy attitude most people hold, nothing will happen except a scream for legislation and governmental protections because they cant protect themselves. How soon till someone tries to hit a helicopter/airplane with a drone? The DJI Mavic 2 can travel for miles and has a top speed of 72 MPH. You can buy one of these $1,725.

The way i see it, there are two ways this goes, we have mild regulations and suffer all the watching and reporting bs. Or we can wait until some jerk does something destructive with a drone and they are regulated into the ground. These regulations are coming whether we like it or not.

Also quick question isn't it legal to go under 400 feet if you get permission from ATC? I genuinely dont know if this is true or not. When I was in Alaska most of the float planes where flying way lower than 400 ft AGL and they did it on routine.
Yes, if you get atc permission it is allowed, but chances are those floats planes didn't bother getting clearance. This is what allows crop dusters to operate.
 

BS projects inc.

Well-known member
#24
@BS projects inc.

If I am flying in a safe manor why do I NEED to be identified.. I wont be anywhere that could possibly cause issue to full scale aircraft?

I am beginning to get the feeling you have some kind of personal involvement in this system here. You are promoting it awfully hard in a forum. Then you make the statement you fly in the middle of nowhere like another member where NONE of this really effects safe air space.

Again I reiterate.. its nothing more then profiteering... where is all the regulation and "Ohh you must be identified while flying" BULLCRAP in regard to ultra light aircraft and para-motors and all the things that are actually IN the air space of real aircraft...

There is nothing you or anyone can say to make me believe this or any other new legislation is in the best interest in the hobby. Profiteering nothing more.

EDIT: Oh and what is being done about private small aircraft flying in MY airspace under 400 ft taking pictures of the pretty fall colors. Thats more unsafe then anything to full scale flight.. and they HAVE the gear where they can be tracked.
I have zero involvement with this system, it's just a good idea. Airspace below 400 feet is changing fast and new regulations are going to happen regardless. These private companies are being proactive and are trying to create a system that protects recreational pilots, and I think we need to appreciate what's going on here. If everyone has the "down with the faa" kind of mentality however, hobbyists are going to be viewed as uncooperative and clean slate legislation will be put in place. This is the kind of regulation that needs to happen, this kind that protects safe pilots without requiring them to add hardware to their plane.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#25
@JTarmstr Here is the reality of of what you touched on. Hobby drones have been and are used in terrorist attacks already. Have been for years... Guess what they use most... Fixed wing as it has MUCH longer range.

I fly quads (despise the word drone in regards to my gear) that top out at 150 mph straight line. I can fly on lower pitch props with pretty accurate stability more in the 80 to 100 mph range. I can tell you for a fact there is no way in hell the average guy with a hobby drone is gonna intentionally take down a commercial plane with a multi rotor, and using a dji product... Pfft... thanks for the laughs

The chances of that happening are so low as two moving objects that fast in the view screen (80 mph into 180ish to 400 ish) with very limited sight range would only ever meet due to luck be it good or bad. By the time you would see a plane while you are moving at 80 mph and the plane is coming directly at you reflexes are not fast enough to get aligned to hit the craft before its already gone by unless by luck you happen to be exactly where it was headed at the exact moment it passes. even if I were to line up from the runway it was on approach for landing the chances of me impacting a full scale aircraft in that quick time span.... just no. Thats not even taking into account the air moving around an aircraft diverting and tossing anything that does get close enough away.. Bird strikes happen hundreds of times each day.. Just saying.

If I were to attempt to take out a commercial aircraft it would be with an RC truck towing a trailer of explosives while it sits on the tarmac. FAR more dangerous then any "drone" attack could ever be but yet there is no who ha about land craft...
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#26
I have zero involvement with this system, it's just a good idea. Airspace below 400 feet is changing fast and new regulations are going to happen regardless. These private companies are being proactive and are trying to create a system that protects recreational pilots, and I think we need to appreciate what's going on here. If everyone has the "down with the faa" kind of mentality however, hobbyists are going to be viewed as uncooperative and clean slate legislation will be put in place. This is the kind of regulation that needs to happen, this kind that protects safe pilots without requiring them to add hardware to their plane.
Again.. profiteering.. the only thing that will be coming into that 400 ft air space are these "Delivery Drones". The only good that will come out of it all is that will open air space for "The Jetsons" type vehicles when the tech hits that point and the drone delivery gets seen for the massive fail it will be.

ANY legislation be it about drones or taxes or cars, anything.. that forces normal thinking people that are already doing the right things to be tracked, or pay, or limit what they do is and NEVER will be acceptable in my book.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#28
@BS projects inc. I am going to make one more statement regard this and I am walking away from this thread.

The governments are going to do what they want to regardless of what we think. We cant stop it. The thing is by backing ANY kind of thing as this is the lesser of two evils is basically giving them your consent to rule you. If no one backs any of this crap then the whole ownership falls on them when things go south and they will.. its the direction humanity is doomed to travel by nature. It will only be their own fault of their own making. The only thing politicians and rich people are scared of when wielding their power is looking bad as they do so.

Let em hang themselves. Do what you do as best you can within normal thinking and spend the time being happy instead of fretting over something you have ZERO control over. As long as what you do does not directly effect or hurt others its all good.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#29
So...I KINDA see both sides.

On the one hand, we have idiots who do dumb stuff like flying over a fire in Los Angeles with their drones, preventing helicopters from getting in and dropping water. We need a way to track these people who are holding a "moron-a-thon" above a raging wildfire that is threatening homes. And yes, I know there's going to be the people who say that they're not going to register simply so that they CAN do this sort of stuff, blah blah blah. I get that we're not going to stop everyone. But if we can at least REDUCE it? I'd like to try SOMETHING rather than just say it's bad all around. And since I live in a high fire area and have had my home threatened by fire multiple times in the last 20 years, I'm pretty sensitive to people who prevent the bombers and helicopters trying to fly overhead and put it out. I want that stopped, and I want these people held responsible. That's one point.

But there's also the point that the large group of us hobbyists are doing things correctly now. We're flying at known flying fields and flight areas. We're being safe, and not endangering people. We're not out there spying on your girlfriend/spouse/significant other in her bikini, sunbathing on the back porch (it's a lot easier to go to the beach/lake/public pool during the summer if we want to see it, and half the time we're not purposely trying to see it because we're not that interested!!!). We're also not the ones out there weaponizing our aircraft with flamethrowers, shotgun shells, and explosives, because we know that's just a quick way to end up in jail or worse.

So what do we do, regardless of which point of view you have? Turn the public against the idea of it and legislate the heck out of it all. Sound familiar?
 

Merv

Well-known member
#30
I don't see the benefit of this proposal, the problem never has been with the responsible pilots. The irresponsible pilots are just not going to do it. So how will this help the police catch them. It will be as useless as the registration program from the FAA.

From a practical point of view, I fly in many areas with out reliable cell service. Would this proposal prevent me from flying in those areas? Will you need to tell big brother about each flight? Even if your at the same location? Won't you also need to tell big brother when you quit flying? Or will you be held responsible for everyone who fly's before or after you?

I can just imagen a conversation with the police, "You said you were flying there, prove you didn't do what ever. Who else could it have been?"

As @PsyBorg said, there are may negatives. I can see very few if any positives.
 
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Vimana89

Well-known member
#31
I'm all for practical safety solutions and having a network in place to report and crack down on behavior such as interfering with firefighting operations, spying on people's privacy, interfering with commercial or military aircraft, or possible terrorist threats. I'm not for sweeping blanket regulations that hold the average hobbyist "guilty until proven innocent", and puts an extra burden on us to use some dumb app so ignorant people who know and care a lot less about safe RC flying can bi...uh, file complaints against us for questionable reasons(perhaps the noise simply annoys them and that's enough, or they can't stand seeing an adult have fun with "toys"). This proposal isn't empowering to safety, to the RC community, or even to full scale aviation. All this does is put power in the hands of Grinchy McBuzzkills who don't like the hobby to report anything they want, and also in the hands of big corporations, who really don't care about safety anyways(unless it effects their profit), and just want the air space to themselves to crowd it with their stupid drone delivery services, which are horribly inefficient and just a dumb fad that will be replaced by better methods. My advice? Carry on as you were. They can't stop us all.

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moret

Active member
#33
I will say this.. whether I agree with things like this or not it is good to see Flite Test putting a public face out there in regards to legislation for or against the hobby. I think this is a first step to them becoming a certified CBO and would better serve the community then where AMA is going. 1950's thinking no longer applies to the hobby Its time for a new face to smile upon those that fly.

That said... To our leader mr Josh. Whether people agree or disagree with some decisions that will have to be made, myself included dont let that slow or stop you from stepping up. You have a TON of backing when you are ready to do so

I did not try to say this needed to be done but was glad that Flite test was looking to the future and testing stuff that we may all be required to do. Was this just a just a app on the phone and not equipment on the plane. They was flying the scout so weight was not a big problem I have Airmap on my phone But fly in class G. I can still log that I am flying for an hour within X feet from my GPS location.
A phone app still has problems. There are many areas that do not have cell phone coverage. I know the cell phone sales people never said that but then I would have to explain it to the mad customer that there is no coverage in his town and we had no plans to add a tower. Or you city people are not like me and like to go to places my phone does not work. The second problem with cell phones, will the app work on your phone. B4UFLY will not work on my phone after the last update, My 4.4.4 software is to old.

Maybe this is needed around big cities and airports. The guy out on his farm, just a waste of time.
The real problem is this will not stop the people who will fly BLOS off the end of the runway. Or the people dropping drugs / cell phones in prison yards. They do not care and will just disable the tech.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#34
And now I remember why I walked away from RCGroups for a good long while - no matter how you feel on this, you are going to be wrong. I'm walking away from this thread before I get sucked into the ugly mess. Godwin's Law has already proven true on this argument, so I'm no longer interested.
 

BS projects inc.

Well-known member
#35
In an ideal world there would be no regulation, but considering that it is going to happen we need to be open to ideas. Saying "fight the system" is cool and all but in the end we don't have that kind of power. If we get reported, we now have proof that we were being responsible. If I get reported by a neighbor for "flying illegaly" and an officer comes up to me while I'm flying. I can get out my phone and say "Sorry for the confusion officer, I am indeed abiding by the law and here is the proof. I followed protocol by stating my intention via the app." This system protects pilots, we do not have to forfeit any of our rights as pilots, we now just have to identify ourselves so that when other people are being irresponsible, we have proof that we are law abiding. A lot of people don't understand the laws surrounding this hobby, but now we can easily assure others that we are not a threat.
 
#36
I can do that right now, I can set up a camera, and when someone reports me for being unsafe, I can proove Im not doing wrong.

But that in itself is the problem, I shouldn't have to prove anything, they should have proof that im doing wrong. then they should prosecute me with the evidence that im doing wrong, then i get punished if im found guilty. there has been no incidences to warrent this, this is cooperate takeover of government regulation, for profit, without any benefit for anybody other than them. this is banning assault rifles while allowing handguns, this is forceing vaccinations on kids, except for religiuos beliefs. this is feel-good compromise, for the sake of poeple not involved, that doessnt help them or the people the new laws and regulations are going to affect

this is over regulation, and people being happy with it because they dont know their rights as is, or are unwilling to stick up for themselves and hoping to pay someone else for that privilege.
I'm not willing to accept a mindset of "why bother to learn and stand up for your rights when you have this (conveniently packaged thing Im now required by law to buy) to do the hard work for you!!!"
 

Merv

Well-known member
#37
If I get reported by a neighbor for "flying illegaly" and an officer comes up to me while I'm flying. I can get out my phone and say "Sorry for the confusion officer, I am indeed abiding by the law and here is the proof. I followed protocol by stating my intention via the app."
I doubt the encounter will happen as you describe. I’m not afraid of being questioned by the police while flying. In fact I have been. It quite easy to show them everything at the time.

My fear the encounter with the police will happen many days later. Then it’s not so easy, the police assume you had deleted or hidden evidence. My point, if one admits to being in the area, you will be blamed for everything that happens remotely close in time or location.

You will not have any defense. You will be presumed guilty and have to prove your innocence.
 
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Vimana89

Well-known member
#38
I'd be worried about armed officers responding to those types of reports at all this day and age. A dude holding a black RC plane or a TX at a distance and some low IQ black water mercenary reject with an itchy trigger finger is a bad combo. I'm not saying the vast majority of cops are like that, but it only takes that one. why make everything a situation that has to involve law enforcement and courts, people can self-regulate this small time stuff better with less drama and chance of it escalating into something bad.
 
#39
My take from my life experiences could be totally wrong.

The FAA is not the enemy, well not directly anyway, if they had a choice they would pretend we don't exist like they did for many many years.
The AMA is not the enemy, they do what they can. Unfortunately they are weak and impotent.
The real enemy is the corporations that have recognized the value of the airspace down low and a populus that is paranoid like never before. Add to that a few dumb asses and we are primed to lose the sport.
 

Vimana89

Well-known member
#40
My take from my life experiences could be totally wrong.

The FAA is not the enemy, well not directly anyway, if they had a choice they would pretend we don't exist like they did for many many years.
The AMA is not the enemy, they do what they can. Unfortunately they are weak and impotent.
The real enemy is the corporations that have recognized the value of the airspace down low and a populus that is paranoid like never before. Add to that a few dumb asses and we are primed to lose the sport.
Totally agree, and I doubt the FT guys are happy about this either. I bet they share a lot of these same opinions, but have a more public face so are more careful about outright saying the kind of stuff we have said here. I don't think they are backing this so much as getting on top of methods to make this suck less for the RC community if it does become a thing.